HMS Hermes – Last Chance Saloon

It is true that the US easily leads in preserved and mothballled future preservations but they have lots of waterways capable of putting a battleship down to keep safe.

Good point, but it’s not as though the UK’s waterways, and maritime facilities are full, exactly. That’s not the limiting factor. After all Scotland had a relatively complete W.W.I submerged Navy at Scapa Flow!

Likewise scotavia makes some good points about the costs and issues of large ship preservation, but none of those explain the significantly better situation in the US. Far more important is a higher affluence among the interested, tax breaks, and a greater desire to promote and commemorate the USN’s achievements, compared to the UK’s population’s lack of ‘ownership’ of the history of the RN.

As to the Vulcan comparison, it’s an easy one, but hardly similar. The complexity is of a different order, the risk analysis is entirely different and the potential public interaction is different also. The cash burn and certification issues are different too. Both need a lot of dedicated enthusiasts though!

I believe it was Bulwark that they were looking for Gannets for… some were trying to re-commission her for the Falklands… which would have been quite a job, considering:
1. had been decommissioned April 1981
2. had been towed to the scrapper, but work had not yet started (finally started April 1984)
3. her catapults had been removed in 1958-1960 when she had been converted to a commando carrier
and
4. she had had one boiler room gutted by a fire 15 March 1980, and this had not been repaired, followed by a major fire which damaged the forward hangar and many mess decks 9 November 1980.

Several months after the Falklands conflict, October 82, a few days after the Mary Rose was raised, we took a trip along the south coast and ended up at Portsmouth. The Bulwark and Tiger were definately still anchored up with the reserve fleet then, as we persuaded one of the tour boats to take us round the fleet as it was getting dark and what an experience that was.
The dockyard was full of activity with ships being repaired in drydocks under floodlights, it was incredible, I have some stunning slides of the events, but I do recall sailing round the Bulwark in the dark, not officially allowed but an extra fiver did the trick.

ships

Perhaps it is all about the cost of preservation. There are many in the uk who are keen to see larger ships preserved,however the money involved is daunting.

When you start to look at the cost of intitial purchase which must equate to scrap value,then add the need for dock facilities,labour and materials it is a costly project. For actual display the ship will still be on the water in most cases exposed to the corrosive atmosphere above the waterline with a constant need for humidity levels to be kept in balance.

I think it is almost a miracle that we have a number of large ships preserved in the UK.And the neareast comparision I can think of in aviation terms is the Vulcan which is a battleship of the skies.

I believe it was Bulwark that they were looking for Gannets for… some were trying to re-commission her for the Falklands… which would have been quite a job, considering:
1. had been decommissioned April 1981
2. had been towed to the scrapper, but work had not yet started (finally started April 1984)
3. her catapults had been removed in 1958-1960 when she had been converted to a commando carrier
and
4. she had had one boiler room gutted by a fire 15 March 1980, and this had not been repaired, followed by a major fire which damaged the forward hangar and many mess decks 9 November 1980.

It is true that the US easily leads in preserved and mothballled future preservations but they have lots of waterways capable of putting a battleship down to keep safe.

Where true enough we do have some preserved ships but some classes have never been preserved i would have loved to see a preserved liner like the Aquitania but it was not of interest at the time to preserve her, it always upsets me to see RMS Queen Mary at Long Beach, and makes you think why we did not keep her at least, is it too late to save the Canberra (similar combat history to the Hermes but she was put in danger unlike the Hermes?).

curlyboy

It would help if I (we) actually thought them capable of achieving that.

Perfectly possible with funding. Cash is the only obstacle. The museum does not intend to continue the airworthy restoration themselves, but contract it to an organisation than has an excellent track record.

I agree with you about the Stranraer, lovely seaplane, would have liked to have seen one of those launched off the Warspite, was the experiment ever tried.

Not stressed or designed for catapulting. It’s an image though!

I can’t see that the Merchant Marine does to well either…

Perhaps I’d have done better to say civil ships. Among others – Cutty Sark, Great Britain, Windermere Steamboat Museum, various tugs and lightships, Centaur (barge) Discovery, Esperance, Gondola, Kathleen & May, Maid of the Loch, Prince Frederick’s Barge, Pyronaut, Sir Walter Scott, SRN-1, Tattershall Castle, Turbinia, & Waverley. (CF: Brouwer’s International Register of Historic Ships.) A rough match to (say) the US or Scandinavia shows the UK is relatively well provided for in terms of truly historic civil shipping (Cutty Sark, Great Britain, Discovery, Turbania, SRN-1) at a rate that matches both (allowing for size and population) but the US has a LOT more preserved USN ships.

Just a thought.

JDK
I can’t see that the Merchant Marine does to well either, I’ve been wracking my brains to think of preserved merchant ships, I know we have the lovely paddle steamer and it’s stable mate that do summer cruises around the British coast and amazing they look too, but all preserved ships, naval or otherwise are short on the ground in this country.
I remember only a few years ago it was possible to wander round the coast and creeks of Essex and see loads of old MTB’s moored up as houseboats, including one next to the bridge at Maldon, but they all seem to have dissappeared recently, plywood hulls become unstable no doubt.
I agree with you about the Stranraer, lovely seaplane, would have liked to have seen one of those launched off the Warspite, was the experiment ever tried.
If I lived closer to Southampton, I would definately volounteer to help with the Walrus project, a unique a/c, I didn’t realise that there was a problem with this.

Arm Waver: Surely when the Illustrious class was designed the SHAR was only a distant idea, I seem to remember from the controversy at the time that they really were only designed for helicopter operations.

Just as an aside, I never saw a British carrier with it’s compliment of a/c on board, however I was lucky enough to see the USS Enterprise at Portsmouth in 69 on it’s way back from Vietnam, well tooled up, and I saw the JFK off the coast of Normandy in 94 launch Tomcats, Prowlers, F-18’s for the D-Day flypast.

It would help if I (we) actually thought them capable of achieving that.

Considering the Naval heritage of this country, the number of preserved warships is a disgrace,

I’d strongly agree. It’s interesting though that while civil aviation in the UK comes a poor second in preservation terms to military, the reverse seems to be true in the marine field as regards RN versus Merchant Marine in Britain. I’d be guessing at aggregate tonnage in both cases, rather than numbers of vehicles.

Closer to home, it’s disgraceful that Britain has so few RN aircraft flying in preservation, and for the holders of the Schnider Trophy that there’s not a single British designed and built seaplane or amphibian flying. More relevant still is that the reaction to an appeal by Solent Sky to raise funds to restore R J Mitchell’s second best design* to flying condition has received a distinctly muted response on this forum. I refer, of course, to Supermarine Walrus G-RNLI. See http://www.projectwalrus.com/

The museum cannot achieve this ambitious project
on its own, it needs the support of sponsors and
donations. If you can help or know of anyone
who can help please contact Solent Sky.

All the best battleships and cruisers had a Walrus aboard.

Help them out, you know it makes sense.

Cheers

*The best of course being the Supermarine Stranraer. Class.

Pete,
I was under the impression that Invincible, Illustrious and Ark Royal were all built for Harrier use from day one. Not being carriers per say but “fly through cruisers” IIRC…
Gary

‘Through Deck Cruisers’ wasn’t it?

N

CDS FM{to be Lord}Carver,Tightrope Walking,P96 {SecState Def Mason} “persuaded (Cabinet) to approve (the first through-deck cruiser) largely(for)employment (as) negotiations to (form BAe) were not yet concluded”

Pete,
I was under the impression that Invincible, Illustrious and Ark Royal were all built for Harrier use from day one. Not being carriers per say but “fly through cruisers” IIRC…
Gary

Pete Truman….. Thanks, I knew I was 100% about the dinky toy carriers, but Hermes I wasnt so sure about. I do beleieve at the time of the Falklands they did throw that idea of refitting the Hermes to a proper carrier but time & money stuffed that one. Also some muppet was reported running around the country looking for old AEW3 Gannets for the job, until someone pointed out that his plan was good in theory but just one slight technical hitch, we didnt have a proper aircraft carrier for them to take off & Land on. Bex

if i remember correctly (i look forward to corrections if im wrong) Invincible & Hermes and the other carriers of their type werent actually meant to be aircraft carriers in the normal sense, they were meant to be only carrying helicopters and that clever bloke with the beard (ok that covers most of the RN) proved just before the Falklands that it was possible to land a Harrier on the deck and then the rest is history. I was only 6 at the time so the old hard drive is a bit u/s and should have been BLR’d years ago and i wasnt happy with with the demise of proper carriers doing away with Buccs & Phantoms & Gannets (ok RAF got the lot bar the Gannets) Bex

Invincible, Illustrious and Ark Royal are of the same class and were indeed only originally designed to carry helicopters. Hermes was completley different and older, if you Google about there are some interesting pictures taken in the 60’s when it seems to have a full compliment of Gannets, Sea Vixens, Scimitars and even what look like Buccs on one picture.
It was converted to a helicopter carrier in 73.
I would be interested to know whether any thought was given to taking off the ski ramp and putting back the steam catapults before it set out for the Falklands, though I know that time was of the essence.
I can imagine the look on the faces of RAF pilots when being sent off to learn how land and take off their precious Buccs and Phantoms from a carrier, but it had been done before, interesting scenario though.
I think that when I was at college in Portsmouth in 69/70 I watched the sister ship of Hermes, Centaur, come into port for the last time flying it’s paying off pennant, the whole crew lining the deck, very moving sight, and captured on some slides somewhere.
I may have been a revolting student at that time but living in Portsmouth created my great interest in warships, especially the carriers, we never went to the Union bar for lunch, always the Still and West pub at the Sally Point, I remember being late for afternoon lectures once because I was waiting for the old Ark Royal to leave port, and what a sight that was, I seem to remember she was off for sea trials following a refit, and happened to be leaving port as the QE2 was arriving for Southampton. We waited till the two passed in the Solent, what a sight that was, it was surprising how much bigger the QE2 appeared to be compared to the Ark, which had just towered over us on passing the pub.

if i remember correctly (i look forward to corrections if im wrong) Invincible & Hermes and the other carriers of their type werent actually meant to be aircraft carriers in the normal sense, they were meant to be only carrying helicopters and that clever bloke with the beard (ok that covers most of the RN) proved just before the Falklands that it was possible to land a Harrier on the deck and then the rest is history. I was only 6 at the time so the old hard drive is a bit u/s and should have been BLR’d years ago and i wasnt happy with with the demise of proper carriers doing away with Buccs & Phantoms & Gannets (ok RAF got the lot bar the Gannets) Bex

what exactly was the helicopter compliment supposed to be on these ships…

Four Sea King HAS2(?).

what exactly was the harrier compliment supposed to be on these ships…

Zero.

WA$.

Sadly if the Medway Queen cannot be preserved, as a Dunkirk veteran, then I can’t see any future for big ship preservation.

I would hardly call either HMS Tiger or HMS Blake very elegant in appearance…

Did any of you see any of these ships in real life, I did, I saw the whole class at one time or another, including two of them being scrapped together at Inverkeithing, wish I could publish my slides. Perhaps it’s my designers view of the alternative perspective on things, but they always seemed more attractive than the general RN 1930’s cruiser class, the Belfast being a prime example, the funnels don’t look right on that, they aren’t in the right place, whereas those clinker screens give the Tiger class a really purposeful appearance.
To keep on thread, what exactly was the helicopter/Harrier compliment supposed to be on these ships, I found my book on them while I was packing to move but it is now under a pile of cardboard boxes, they look very similar to the Japanese battleship conversions during the war, without the hair raising superstructure, presumably their role was for a one way trip only.
Yes I do appreciate the cost of preserving these ships, the Cavalier has apparently got a rotten hull, there are no doubt not a lot of dry docks to go round. What is going to happen to the Birkenhead collection, is it in danger?

I was reading about Cutty Sark and the problems that having her in dry dock have caused; drying out, and the hull not being supported in the way that it was designed to have been by water. Result several million needs to be spent to secure here future.

If the claim that the Belfast eats £2500 a day is true then that is about a million a year is true. Then it looks like preserving ships is so hideously expensive that as a nation we will in the long run struggle to maintain even the most important vessels we have today.

Steve.

Sadly the significant ships have all gone, in my opinion. The Washington Treaty did for some possible preservation projects (there was a lot of public pressure to preserve HMS Lion, Beatty’s flagship at Jutland and Dogger Bank) after the First World War, but the terms of the treaty did not allow for such a powerful vessel to be hung on to (lest it be converted back to less peaceful purposes anyway). That’s as maybe but our record after the Second World War is less explainable. If ever a ship should have been preserved it should have been ‘Old Lady’ Warspite but she was unceremoniously junked like the rest of them.

I suppose one can’t turn the entire country into a museum, much as we would like to, and I can’t imagine preserving ships is anything other than immensely expensive and difficult. On the other hand, as someone else pointed out, the significance of the Navy to Great Britain has been immeasurable, and it’s astounding we have so few tangible reminders of that. Perhaps it’s that we don’t want to be reminded how far we have fallen – Jacky Fisher would be spinning in his grave.