How does one become an aircraft restoration technician?

Whooaa Nice one Jenny 🙂

Not all King Airs are at Cranwell and was just going on a post on Egoat regarding some Corporals getting licence courses for them..

As for FTRS, that is exactly what I meant, previously when your Service time was up you would depart the RAF and be replaced by other Service personnel.
Now using the losing skills argument they re-employ those staff under the Reserve Service scheme for departing personnel with useful skills.
Wrap it up in any fancy title you want, but 1/6th of your turnover of staff has ceased and as such as they get older and “retire,” the skill set from new blood coming into the BBMF has been degraded, because the replacements for those 5 that would have joined the BBMF and trained up are simply not there, add to that, once you take out of the 30 bods the stores staffing etc, the portion is probably even higher than the 1/6th of the engineering staff…
That is why business, both civil and military need a turnover of staff, newer members joining to replace those leaving at the end of their careers to maintain a throughput of skills being passed on to the next.
Without it you hit crunch time sometime in the future where those staff get to an age where they cannot continue and you find you have a lack of those qualified to take their place.

danjama yes it is me.

The other thing I see a lot where I work, is a lot of ex forces who have been out for years, then due to the recent economic situation coming back in to aircraft maintenance, reducing the input of new blood still further.

Ive only been in the RAF for 14 years (get some time in) ,and only ever done 1st line (SQN) work with a short spell on 2nd line Typhoon.

I did 15 yrs 1st line with only 4 weeks in an Engine bay as Jag Squadrons disbanded in RAFG…. taught me to avoid that like the plague… was lucky really, was also one of the last courses to cover Piston engines as part of the sylabus. Still suprised how many people do not know what a “hot pot” system is on a piston engine, Spit has them.

You could though go civvie and get a job working for your local airline, however understand this, the donkey’s at blackpool pleasure beach don’t get whipped and get a longer tea break than you will! get brews in

Ahhh… obviously have no experience out of the mob in that respect, far from what you say it is the opposite, top that off with better renumerations too.

If you are Corporal and above posted to Cranners on King Air’s, the RAF put you through them I believe as on Civi reg.

Unfortunately the BBMF of late has tended to keep those leaving the RAF on as Civilians working on the BBMF to retain the “knowledge” hence very very few new people get posted onto the Squadron compared to the past… Fine, but as they get older and retire, with the reduction of new RAF engineers learning as used to happen, they will end up with a skills deficit due to the lost turnover of manning..

Ive only been in the RAF for 14 years (get some time in) ,and only ever done 1st line (SQN) work with a short spell on 2nd line Typhoon. During my time on BBMF I learnt a hell of a lot about vintage aircraft which got me into volunteering for work restoring privately owned warbirds for which I get great satisfaction. If you have a passion for vintage aircraft, then as mentioned by most do a bit of volunteer work.
You could though go civvie and get a job working for your local airline, however understand this, the donkey’s at blackpool pleasure beach dont get whipped and get a longer tea break than you will! 😀 get brews in:rolleyes:
Joking aside though if you like vintage then go vintage.

Give us a call 01449740544
Jenny
Hawker Restorations ltd

Whooaa Nice one Jenny 🙂

Not all of that is strictly true…

I don’t believe any of the King Air postings at Cranwell are service personnel, it’s contracted out to a civilian company.

Also there are no civilian engineers at BBMF. All are service personnel, and of the 25-30 or so only 5 are on a FTRS contract.

Not all King Airs are at Cranwell and was just going on a post on Egoat regarding some Corporals getting licence courses for them..

As for FTRS, that is exactly what I meant, previously when your Service time was up you would depart the RAF and be replaced by other Service personnel.
Now using the losing skills argument they re-employ those staff under the Reserve Service scheme for departing personnel with useful skills.
Wrap it up in any fancy title you want, but 1/6th of your turnover of staff has ceased and as such as they get older and “retire,” the skill set from new blood coming into the BBMF has been degraded, because the replacements for those 5 that would have joined the BBMF and trained up are simply not there, add to that, once you take out of the 30 bods the stores staffing etc, the portion is probably even higher than the 1/6th of the engineering staff…
That is why business, both civil and military need a turnover of staff, newer members joining to replace those leaving at the end of their careers to maintain a throughput of skills being passed on to the next.
Without it you hit crunch time sometime in the future where those staff get to an age where they cannot continue and you find you have a lack of those qualified to take their place.

danjama yes it is me.

Give us a call 01449740544
Jenny
Hawker Restorations ltd

Good luck but do not overlook the fact that the RAF is an armed service with combat deployments very common. You have signed to do as ordered and cannot just walk out of the door when it suits you, your life is not your own .Mobility and detachments are intertwined ,no overtime payments.

If the Civvy/RAF route doesn’t work/appeal one could always apply for an apprenticeship at Qinetiq ,Boscombe Down.
Currently the sqn where I work at BD has a fairly eclectic mix of a/c including the Variable Stability training Beagle Basset,a Harvard which is flown almost daily by the students…others are Hawks,Alpha Jets,Tucano and Piper Chieftan.
One of the Hawks is the Advanced Stability Training Aircraft (ASTRA) as seen on the recent ‘Bang goes the theory’ on BBC 1
At the moment it is a 4 year course.

… and having just re-read the questions:

The qualifications offered by the RAF DO translate into civvie street, they offer City and Guilds as well as BTEC Aeronautical engineering the same as any other aerospace college. The problem you have is that they are low level qualifications and only cover RAF Mechs and civie fitters.

For high levels of experience and professional competnce, the CAA ONLY recognise their own Part 147 facilities delivering the part 66 exams. The RAF do not have a requirement for such a licence as their rank system and the experience involved in promotion acts in a similar way.

The experience gained by a 15 year long stint in the RAF is huge, however the CAA are bound to only recognise experince gained within an EASA part 145 company, ie. one that is subject to CAA/EASA audits and quality control. The RAF is not one, and therefore expeience gained on military registered types does not count towards the EASA licence application. There are always exceptions and fitters with considerable time on VC10, Tristar, Sentry, etc MAY be awarded a small reduction in time served to gain the licence. I believe that the licence exams may be gained during a PVR / resettlement procedure, but usually only if the candidate has time served on the more commercial aircraft types….

Aircraft such as the King Airs at Cranwell are Civillian registered aircraft and mantained by civillian groundcrew, but are LEASED to the MOD for training purposes. In the nxt couple of years, both the tanker fleet (Airbus A300) and the Sea King replacement (any offers?) will be civillian registered, owned and maintained. Where combat ops are a possibility, the civillian groundcrew are required to join the RAF reserves, with the benefits of such available to them….

There are downsides to both routes to becoming a professional engineer:

RAF: Minimum service time of 9 years, by which time you would be a Corporal, maximum! The pay is not brilliant by any stretch of the imagination, and you WILL be sent to sandy places where there are huge spiders and people with backpacks. You will not get a true choice of aircraft types to work on, and you will most likely move every three to five years.

Part 66: Minimum training time of 5 years including 2-3 years of on the job training as a mechanic (paid). You must be 21 to hold a B1/B2 licence and the course is expensive and difficult. Absolute dedication is required. After all of the training, you will be viewed as pond life with no experience, and getting a job these days is difficult. Keeping one is just as hard. Training levels vary with establishments. Find the ones with a good reputation and a high failure rate.

There are benefits:

RAF: Job security. Excellent training.

Part 66: Better pay than the RAF. Licenced engineers start at around £40k. (Mechanics contract at £15-£20 per hour or salary of £24k – £30k) You decide where you work and what you work on. Its a job – you choose. You’re self employed as a contractor, thus pay less tax…

Either route will take time, an all the while you could volunteer at whatever museum is local to you.

Well that is a very clear and thorough explanation, thanks for that!

I have decided to contact the RAF on the first working day, which will be Monday, and book an appointment for as soon as possible, to speak with somebody.

Thank you all again, so far. I will be looking into volunteering, for definite. I am definitely not against relocating to get a foot in the door, nor am I worried about being underpaid. You take the good with the bad, as with any job.

Thankyou everybody! Good luck to you too, cometguy. JT, why would you have perhaps gone the civilian route, over the RAF? Any particular bad experiences? Or just the “low” pay?

On a related note…. Do the likes of Air Atlantic etc offer apprenticeships?

City and Guilds produce the NVQ framework……. 😀

I’m not sure the RAF do city and guilds these days. They certainly do NVQ’s, and they are recognised in civvy street.

Military aircraft maintenance is now governed by MAOS, which is effectively civvy standard, and has tightened up a lot of things!

… and having just re-read the questions:

The qualifications offered by the RAF DO translate into civvie street, they offer City and Guilds as well as BTEC Aeronautical engineering the same as any other aerospace college. The problem you have is that they are low level qualifications and only cover RAF Mechs and civie fitters.

For high levels of experience and professional competnce, the CAA ONLY recognise their own Part 147 facilities delivering the part 66 exams. The RAF do not have a requirement for such a licence as their rank system and the experience involved in promotion acts in a similar way.

The experience gained by a 15 year long stint in the RAF is huge, however the CAA are bound to only recognise experince gained within an EASA part 145 company, ie. one that is subject to CAA/EASA audits and quality control. The RAF is not one, and therefore expeience gained on military registered types does not count towards the EASA licence application. There are always exceptions and fitters with considerable time on VC10, Tristar, Sentry, etc MAY be awarded a small reduction in time served to gain the licence. I believe that the licence exams may be gained during a PVR / resettlement procedure, but usually only if the candidate has time served on the more commercial aircraft types….

Aircraft such as the King Airs at Cranwell are Civillian registered aircraft and mantained by civillian groundcrew, but are LEASED to the MOD for training purposes. In the nxt couple of years, both the tanker fleet (Airbus A300) and the Sea King replacement (any offers?) will be civillian registered, owned and maintained. Where combat ops are a possibility, the civillian groundcrew are required to join the RAF reserves, with the benefits of such available to them….

There are downsides to both routes to becoming a professional engineer:

RAF: Minimum service time of 9 years, by which time you would be a Corporal, maximum! The pay is not brilliant by any stretch of the imagination, and you WILL be sent to sandy places where there are huge spiders and people with backpacks. You will not get a true choice of aircraft types to work on, and you will most likely move every three to five years.

Part 66: Minimum training time of 5 years including 2-3 years of on the job training as a mechanic (paid). You must be 21 to hold a B1/B2 licence and the course is expensive and difficult. Absolute dedication is required. After all of the training, you will be viewed as pond life with no experience, and getting a job these days is difficult. Keeping one is just as hard. Training levels vary with establishments. Find the ones with a good reputation and a high failure rate.

There are benefits:

RAF: Job security. Excellent training.

Part 66: Better pay than the RAF. Licenced engineers start at around £40k. (Mechanics contract at £15-£20 per hour or salary of £24k – £30k) You decide where you work and what you work on. Its a job – you choose. You’re self employed as a contractor, thus pay less tax…

Either route will take time, an all the while you could volunteer at whatever museum is local to you.

If you go the Military route there is one important difference:

In the Army the enlisted blokes get shot at, in the RAF the enemy shoot at the officers 😉

One other point to note that’s not really been touched on yet is that if you want to work on aircraft you may well have to move. Most towns have car garages , but not many have airports or aircraft maintenance facilities so you have to move to where the work or training is.
Even colleges doing aircraft training courses are fairly well spread.

I’d also echo as others have said, get some qualifications, as that seems more important these days than experience. You don’t need to go the licensed route initially and you can still have a very satisfying career as an unlicensed mechanic, just on a smaller salary.

My first step was to join the RAF as an Airframe tech. I cross-trained to engines to become a Heavy, but this was before the trades merged anyway. With the beefit of hindsight, perhaps I wouldn’t have joined the RAF but gone for a civvie apprenticeship. You have alot of choice these days for your basic education.

I agree with cometguy – volunteer first to make sure this is what you want to do. The reality of one-handed-blind wirelocking at 3am in a howling gale, halfway up a 747 tailfin is a bit different to the pimms-o’clock fun-time we portray….

Hi danjama,

Im doing the course in order to try and find an employer sadly, wish i had one already. i would say volunteering is a great thing to do, it gave me a little insight into how various bits of A/C worked before doing it in detail on the course. Also is great for interviews as shows your really keen to work with the Aircraft. I wish you luck in getting a place with someone 🙂

Bruce: Thanks 🙂

Will

It was fun while it lasted, and I have no doubt that it will come full circle in time.

Cometguy is possibly the best inspiration for you right now – he came to the Mosquito museum as I was winding down from it, but showed a great deal of interest, and was (and is) very keen to learn. As a direct result of what he was doing at the museum, he applied for the course he is on now. I’m sure he will agree that whilst restoration might be a long term dream, this course gives him the skills and paperwork he needs to get a foot on the ladder. Another chap that worked at the museum went on to work at TFC but has since moved on.

Bruce

First of all, thanks to everybody who has replied, I do appreciate it. Sorry for my delayed response, I’ve been working etc.

So, it seems that the best route would be to volunteer wherever possible, while preparing to apply for a technicians position in the RAF or REME’s. It’s really great to have people here to talk to, with such a variety in backgrounds. It’s also interesting to see the contrasting opinions, regarding the civilian vs defence route.

While civil aircraft do interest me, that route seems less accessible, due to massive training costs and higher demand. Of course, I am a passionate and dedicated individual, and I would take any apprenticeship offered to me (within reason), but it’s just the getting the foot in the door that’s most difficult. Is it really possible that the RAFM recruits apprentices? And the BBMF? Other than those, where would one look for an aircraft technician apprenticeship? It seems simpler when looking for motor apprenticeships, all of the prospective employers are around you, easy to see. Who do you approach in this trade? Airbus? Boeing? Cessna?

Why is it that RAF quali’s don’t translate into civilian? I’m sure I read somewhere on their website that all quali’s are recognised outside of the armed forces.

I will definitely keep on with my writing, it’s another passion of mine, and as was hinted, a great means of escaping reality.

Cometguy, i’m slightly jealous of your position, but wish you all the best mate. It sounds like you’re a few steps ahead of me. Are you attending the C&G as part of a requirement to an employer, or are you doing it in the hopes of finding an employer in the industry?

Fieldhawk, it sounds like you’ve had a brilliant professional life – working on Vamps you lucky fella! Care to offer any insight on those machines?

Bruce, sorry to hear about your hard luck mate, although it’s brilliant that you had the opportunities you did while it lasted.

JT442, what was your first step on the ladder mate, if you don’t mind me asking? It sounds like you’ve done really well for yourself (professionally).

alanl, that definitely does look of interest. I’ll have to have a proper dig around that website, and see exactly what the event can offer me.

TonyT, are you the same Tony who posts over at the Ubi forums, when you have interesting, normally excellent photographs of warbirds in vulnerable positions? Such as a Spitfire sans cowling close-up?

Thank you all again, for the advice and insight. Onwards and upwards.

Don’t know if this will be of interest?
http://www.engineerjobs.co.uk/job-hunters-zone/about-the-exhibition.php?id=131

Not all of that is strictly true…

I don’t believe any of the King Air postings at Cranwell are service personnel, it’s contracted out to a civilian company.

Also there are no civilian engineers at BBMF. All are service personnel, and of the 25-30 or so only 5 are on a FTRS contract.

TRUE.