how important is depth in modern submarine warfare?

A Skipper under attack with ride a layer in order to help confuse the incoming, he would porpoise the layers and drop a few countermeasures on either side of the layer to help throw it off. then he’d either go deep and silent (the Russian way) or blow and surface running at all speed (the American way). IMHO a good Skipper will think about what happens after the worst case, at least on the surface some of the crew can survive, down deep if you’re hit no one will survive.

Now the tactics depends on certain things and as for me its as follows – skippers nerve; confidence in his CMs; confidence in his subs strength; saving his ship; safety of his men.

I put the safety of his men at last bcoz, no skipper has that as his top-most priority when in action, and it just flipps to the top only after every other means of saving his sub have been nearly exhausted.

And thats what one gets to see in the two different approach that the Russians & Amrikkans take. It shows the confidence that the Russians and Amrikkans have in their countermeasures. In the case of the Russians, they show their faith in their countermeasures against the Amrikkans/NATO acoustic homing torpedos by diving deep & silent after employing their CMs where as the Amrikkans (& hopefully NATO) skippers show their faith in their countermeasures against the Russian wake homers by blowing & surface running after employing their set of CMs.

And I wud take the Russian line, coz first & foremost wud be my faith in my CMs & then my subs strength (double hulled & reserve boyancy) to take in punishment and still capable enough to blow out to surface. That is coz its always better to have urself covered under the natural protection (at times) of the ocean layers as u simply don know whats out their in the open untill I’m not in my home/allies waters.

And SSNs are mostly not for staying in the home ground, but rather take the battle to the enemys backyard, so there is little sense in blowing (if all options have not exhausted) with the thought of the ‘home ground’ and then getting hammered on the head.

SSN are huge compared to SSK that’s why they need to hide at depth of ~500m to avoid detection but at that depth it limits their operations to the occeans and not shallow waters.

I disagree, no SSN or SSBN is huge enough to have its belly scratch even a 50m deep seabed. The primary factor is that the N-guys love to saty out of the shores for they are naturally lovers of open ocean and I don thnk anyone who loves open ocean wud love to come back to rest in the shallow water unless the situation deamds it. And I’d take the size as a factor only next to this. But then French Rubis SSN is a very small N-sub which have its non-nuclear design in the form of Scorpene SSK.

SSK are usually for patrol and sea denial close to shore therefor have relatively restricted use of depp diving capabilities because the water isn’t that deep anyways!

And so are SSN/SSBNs. But before the N-power came both Amrikkans and Russians were using the diesel-electric ocean-going SSKs.

And the only ocean going SSK that got sunk after WW-II was the PNS Ghazi which was a refurbished American ocean going SSK that was actually on lease. Hopefully the American training was not good enough or the other party never learnt it quite well. On the contrary was the PNS Hangor skipper’s nerve after sinking the IN’s British junk. He (as usual must have dived deep and silent rather than running like hell) slipped off under the nose of the IN’s ASW assets. Now that has to be attributed to his good never and tactics, maybe the French traning payed off (?) or the French Alize was not capable enough or was in no mood to side with the Indian Navy to have the French built sub destroyed.

so, basically, a good sub, with a good crew and a good sensor array at 200mts, can actually hunt and kill another one at 300mts, no matter how techno advance it is?

Depending upon its weapons. If its torpedo can operate at 600m then it can hunt to that depth too, but it is really a game of cat and mouse between thermal and salinity layers. Luck and skill, sensors and weapons. Skill can create luck.

Happy to have helped my dear friend

so, basically, a good sub, with a good crew and a good sensor array at 200mts, can actually hunt and kill another one at 300mts, no matter how techno advance it is?
in resume…a matter crew, sensors and tactics?
man it sounds way cool to me 😎

thanks a million dear friends, i can see much clearer now.

Camaro.

Here you are, this is a Canadian VDS under test.

No, a towed sonar and a VDS are two different things. Towed sonars are usually passive and consist of a thick, flexible cable containing the receivers. It is trailed behind the ship at a fixed depth. A VDS is often active and can be lowered to the depth desired by the operator and is thus able to ‘look behind’ obstacles like thermal layers. Most of the time it’s a torpedo/balloon shaped casing with fins on a long line.

You could refer to the dipping sonars on helos and some FACs as variable depth sonars, however with the distinction that the carrier platform can only deploy it while static in this case.

hmmm so the VDS is winched in and out pretty much like a towed sonar ? does the word “towed sonar” mean its floating on the surface only far behind the ship (to escape the engine noise) or it means a VDS ?

btw how does a VDS look like ? is it lowered on a rope down to that depth or its able to adjust the beam from the surface somehow ?

It looks and acts much like a reverse tethered balloon, if that makes any sense 😉

but if a helicopter or LRMP is prowling above, the surfaced sub which can barely make 20 knots is a sitting duck for a rocket or missile attack with no chance of survival. this surfacing might work in a 1-1 Akula2:688I Tom clancy deathmatch somewhere near antarctica but not against a fully alert SAG with organic helos it wont.

Well I was talking about a sub on sub encounter mate, as was asked about! what you talk about is also very plausable, but rearely will a nation in peaceful times send out a task group looking for a sub. But if there is a determined nation out to taker care of a particular threat then yes a subs best chance it deep and quiet- five kts at the most.

As for VDS, it is usually deployed from the stren of the ship on a very long and thick cable, if you do a quick search on google you might come up with some pics.

btw how does a VDS look like ? is it lowered on a rope down to that depth or its able to adjust the beam from the surface somehow ?

but if a helicopter or LRMP is prowling above, the surfaced sub which can barely make 20 knots is a sitting duck for a rocket or missile attack with no chance of survival. this surfacing might work in a 1-1 Akula2:688I Tom clancy deathmatch somewhere near antarctica but not against a fully alert SAG with organic helos it wont.

I think going quiet and deep is about the only option a SSN has to sneak away once
detected and attacked. ideally it should avoid detection and launch torps/missiles from long range before sprinting off to a more secure location ? A spread 50km wake homers sounds ideal to deal with a passing SAG once they have crossed the subs location.

From my sub experience a good Skipper will hug a thermal like a child hugs a blankie. If he launches an attack, he’ll program the torp to snake above and below the layers like a dolphine on the surface, that way he is assured that the fish will be assured of finding a target both above and below.

A Skipper under attack with ride a layer in order to help confuse the incoming, he would porpoise the layers and drop a few countermeasures on either side of the layer to help throw it off. then he’d either go deep and silent (the Russian way) or blow and surface running at all speed (the American way). IMHO a good Skipper will think about what happens after the worst case, at least on the surface some of the crew can survive, down deep if you’re hit no one will survive.

First of all water is heavy. Every 13 feet or so equals the weight of all the air above you from sea level to outer space. Every 13 feet, or 2 metres or so is 1 atmosphere of pressure. As long as your torpedos can take the pressure or are designed to operate down to the level the other guy is at then you can get him. Depth is an advantage only based on layers. Liquid water just looks like water in a glass, but in reality when the glass is really really tall then you will get variations in temperature and salinity. A bit like cloud layers in the air. A layer of water 50 down that is a different temperature to the water above and below it has a different density. A sound wave might bounce off that layer instead of pass right though it. Sound can get caught in layers, and in layers of different temperatures or different layers of salinity (ie how salty the water is also effects its density.) Hiding a sub just below a layer is more useful than hiding below thousands of feet of water.

Basically a torpedo is very effective against a sub because water does not compress well, while air does. Even the strongest hull of a sub is only backed up by the air behind it. If a warhead is touching the hull when it explodes then although it expands in a sphere shape in 3 dimensions pushing out into the water is the hardest work.. the blast wave will go that way but will also be reflected back toward the hull because it can’t push the entire ocean of water very far. Going the other way however the hull can easily be pushed aside by a large HE charge as only the hull needs to be breeched as the air behind it has plenty of “give”.
(The best way to kill a ship however is to detonate the torpedo warhead below the centre of the ship and let the huge air bubble that is creates rise up and lift the centre of the ship out of the water. The front and rear of the ship wont be supported and the ships back will break sinking the ship far quicker than a hole in the side.)

At 400m depth even a hole the size of a pin head is a problem because the water coming in through that hole has the force of 400 divided by 2 atmospheres. That will strip paint and injure people and the hole will only get bigger with time. (I read of a deep diving vessel that went down to 1,000m and the guy inside said if there is the slightest hole the force of the water at that depth would create a stream of water so powerful it could cut metal, or pretty much anything else in the way).

To cut a very long story short depth means you are hiding under more layers and unless he has a variable depth sonar down at your level you will be harder to track but having a very quiet sub and good detection capability is more useful as even being at 400m you are not invisible if you are a noisy boat or you make a mistake. The penalties for a mistake at max depth are usually death.

ok, lets say in deep waters, sub Vs sub going at each other, you mean guys that its not that important?
lets say one at 200 meters and the other with capacity for 300, it does seem like a tactical advantage to me, but i’m no expert…now i’m confused 😮

Camaro.