The Su-47 programme is in my opinion one of the most interesting in the recent aviation history. The usage of forward swept wings (FSW) made it an especially revolutionary design, as it was the only actual fighter programme in which such approach was chosen from the very beginning (X-29 was an experimental aircraft with limitations resulting from the F-5A origins so it doesn’t count). While, as we all know, the Su-47 was abandoned in favor of the (most likely) much more capable T-50, nevertheless it was extensively tested and served as a testbed for the PAK FA programme. The FSW layout was supposed to provide the aircraft with numerous advantages such as:
The main drawbacks of such solution are probably the problems with wing stiffness, which haunted earlier constructions.
While the early history of both MiG 1.44 and Su-47 is a relatively well known subject (e.g. books by Y. Gordon), there is a huge gap in our knowledge of their later development during 2000′ and 2010′. In fact, I don’t think there are any available sources, concerning the conclusions of Berkut’s testing. Searching through the archival topics on the PAK-FA, I was able to find a few interesting information, however the number of the posts in T-50 topics makes it a daunting task. So my questions are: how successful was the Su-47 Berkut? Did the FSW layout prove itself? To what extent the flight envelope was tested (e.g. did it achieve supercruise despite the D30F-6 engines)? Is it still used for testing? What features from the T-50 were tested on the Berkut (I know of the weapon’s bay, although I would love to hear more details on it as well)? Also, if anyone has any information/rumors on the background history of the programme during last 10-15 years I would be grateful for sharing.
By: paralay - 3rd January 2017 at 20:29
Aircraft made its first flight is always suffer “childhood diseases”. Su-47 – deck aircraft. FSW Certainly not the best choice for the fighter, but at the plane had plenty of interesting solutions:
– Detachable cockpit
– 6 missiles inside the fuselage
– Flat nozzle engines
– Original folding wing
By: Lolek - 3rd January 2017 at 20:20
While the discussion is certainly very interesting I think we got quite far from the original subject. On the Secret Projects forum I found a following quote (from anonymous source on Russian forum):”The most important problem of this ******* is not weight, but jolting. The matter is that this (FSW) scheme has a congenital defect which no one can get rid of. In a break point of a forward edge very strong vortices form which descend from the left and right consoles approximately in chessboard order. Frequency and intensity of these vortices makes flight on this pepelatz (notorious alien spaceship from soviet movie Kin-Dza-Dza) reminds driving a oxcart on a stone blocks. Americans have tried it on the X – 29 and have spat upon this scheme (and informed the whole world about these problems). But Russians have their own pride,<…>. So we have what we have. Wing fuel tanks have continuous leaks – they have to use pans to collect it”. Also, it was mentioned that the plane itself was limited to 5G due to problems with excessive loads on the airframe. Does anybody have any information whenever these claims are true?
By: paralay - 3rd January 2017 at 10:39
Okhotnik (Hunter) – strike aircraft. The control system does not allow us to create an unmanned fighter
Scat take off weight ~ 10000 kg
By: Austin - 3rd January 2017 at 10:08
Unmanned aircraft Sukhoi resembles the X-47B. It showed in the closed conference.
MiG: http://bd.patent.su/2353000-2353999/pat/servl/servlet3c0b.html
Okhotnik is suppose to be hunter/killer suppose to hunt other aircraft and UCAV , Keeping a X-47B shape wont make sense unless the primary requirement is for bomber.
But if they want a multirole fighter like capability then keeping a FSW based design would make sense.
The Mig Design looks like a more refined Scat design
Any idea what is TO weight in Tons is it 10T or less ? The Scat iirc was 5 T take off weight
By: mrmalaya - 3rd January 2017 at 08:31
Sorry Paralay are we talking about the X-47A lookalike or something else?
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By: paralay - 3rd January 2017 at 06:19
Unmanned aircraft Sukhoi resembles the X-47B. It showed in the closed conference.
MiG: http://bd.patent.su/2353000-2353999/pat/servl/servlet3c0b.html
By: Austin - 3rd January 2017 at 03:48
FSW has no prospects for the aircraft at cruising supersonic speed. All sixth-generation fighter should have the speed.
Subsonic bomber? PAK DA? doubt…
Subsonic attack? Perfectly! What to do with injuries?
It would either be the 20T Okhotnik heavy hunter/killer UCAV from Sukhoi or the 10T Mig UCAV.
I wont be surprised of Okhotnik has high subsonic or low supersonic speed , the Mig UCAV would be subsonic based on Scat program
PAK-DA design would be of flying wing type something like B-2/LRSB type
By: KGB - 2nd January 2017 at 20:40
FSW has no prospects for the aircraft at cruising supersonic speed. All sixth-generation fighter should have the speed.
Subsonic bomber? PAK DA? doubt…
Subsonic attack? Perfectly! What to do with injuries?
6th gen Frog foot replacement ? perfect application for self repairing nano tech
http://thefutureofthings.com/3646-self-repairing-aircraft/
By: paralay - 2nd January 2017 at 18:25
FSW has no prospects for the aircraft at cruising supersonic speed. All sixth-generation fighter should have the speed.
Subsonic bomber? PAK DA? doubt…
Subsonic attack? Perfectly! What to do with injuries?
By: Austin - 2nd January 2017 at 17:37
Bondarev said, August 14, 2014
The first flight of the SR-10 December 25, 2015
I have no other explanation[ATTACH=CONFIG]250443[/ATTACH]
Thats not a Combat Aircraft but a trainer and SR-10 project has been known for long
By: MadRat - 2nd January 2017 at 17:04
One for an APU, the other for a radar.
By: Y-20 Bacon - 2nd January 2017 at 13:34
well lolek, how successful it was depends on what they were trying to achieve.
besides the nature of fsw, were they testing anything else? i.e. radars, missiles, bays, etc?
also anyone know why one boom is longer than the other?
By: paralay - 2nd January 2017 at 13:26
Bondarev said, August 14, 2014
The first flight of the SR-10 December 25, 2015
I have no other explanation
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By: Austin - 2nd January 2017 at 12:29
paralay what is the FSW aircraft that Bondarev is speaking about ?
Gen. Victor Bondarev, also said a new combat aircraft with forward-swept wings is under development and could emerge soon as a prototype.
By: paralay - 2nd January 2017 at 12:06
Problems swept-forward wings:
– High air resistance of supersonic speed (low sweep wing)
– Composite materials must be used, it is difficult to repair
– Su-47 wing creates a vortex that shakes the tail unit.
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By: Lolek - 2nd January 2017 at 09:44
Su-47 suffered wing flapping in the trans-sonic range. Obviously not going to outrun anything supersonic capable.
That is exactly type of info I was looking for. Can you provide any further details or sources? It is quite surprising, as it was expected that FSW will be most beneficial in the 0.8-1.3M region. What is more the FSW layout was quite extensively studied by both TsAGI and Sukhoi and the designers were well aware of the stiffness problems. From what I’ve found Su-47 was flown up to speeds of 1.3M during testing, although value of 1.6M was mentioned as well.
By: paralay - 2nd January 2017 at 05:45
S-45
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By: MadRat - 2nd January 2017 at 03:43
Su-47 suffered wing flapping in the trans-sonic range. Obviously not going to outrun anything supersonic capable.
By: Austin - 2nd January 2017 at 03:33
Some time back a AF official mentioned that they are working on UCAV with FSW so Su-47 might not be the last from Russian stable with FSW wings
Gen. Victor Bondarev, also said a new combat aircraft with forward-swept wings is under development and could emerge soon as a prototype.
By: foxmulder_ms - 2nd January 2017 at 03:17
A 1/48 model of this is a MUST. Freaking model companies..
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January 1, 2017 at 6:50 pm