How to end the war

I’ve lost count of the number of forums that collectively give me a rollicking about my typing/spelling

I’m also pissed off at my point not getting across because its in gobbledygook

so…….

I’m using the MS Word spellchecker and ctrl+c and ctrl+v on big rants 😉

rabie 😉

A post that long without typo’s? You’re on dope again, Rabie? 😀 Wise thoughts I must admit.

Originally posted by TTP
You guys don’t get it, The amount of money the US spends on defence is Huge, but still only a very small part of our national budget, and no offence ,but Many smaller countries can be neutral, but when the chips are down, you know it will probably be the US to come help.

No you miss the point – your $370bn works out at something like 17% (I recently checked), which is A LOT by our standards over here. The UK gets a great defence on the cheap.

So what I’m saying is yes you have low tax but it could be lower because your military is unnecessarily large/expensive (but as you go on to say the money isn’t spent on the grunts)

I notice many Europeans are amazed that we don’t have Health care for all in the US but the majority of the people here don’t want it! Americans don’t view governmennt as a solution to most problems, usually government is the cause of many problems. Its ineficient, slow, andLike I said before, tax me less and I will provide the health coverage for my family, at a cheaper price and better service. As a military man, I can vouch that the healthcare I recieve in the Air Force is poor compared to the coverage at my civilian job, and if the governmnet can’t take care of healthy young people in the military what kind of job will they do for the rest of society. By the way I travel around the world and rarely do I meet anyone who thinks socialized medicine is good, You may feel its free, but your probably paying, $600 a month in extra taxes, whereas I may pay $300 for better private.
Freedom is a wonderful thing, freedom from government interference in your life is great too, its what makes the US great, although inequalities do occur. No easy answer, but the government is no solution. This I feel is the huge difference in Ideology between the US and Europe. I can’t explain this any further, My Father left Italy and became wealthy here with no formal education or skills, largely because he was free to pursue his goals free of most rules and regulations/taxes, that may discourage many others. I for one would never try to start a business if the government will take half of my money., and when incentive is lost ,society stagnates and everyone becomes content just to get by……….sad, thats what happened under the communists and alot of socialism leads in this same direction eventually.

Last I herd some 40 million Americans don’t have healthcare

To us over here (even in relatively right wing Britain) this is unacceptable. The rich who in your example pay $600 for $300 of healthcare accept this on the basis they will get emergency care without producing a chequebook and that they acknowledge that part of living here is that EVERYONE gets healthcare which is something we as a society accept as a necessity and to us, your society non recognition of healthcare’s necessity status is somewhat shocking

I can assure you that the gov is inefficient and the NHS is a living monument to this and perhaps some part privatisation of this (maybe sub contracting ???) ……….

On the wonders of government I wouldn’t come to such a minimalist conclusion but you are free to 😉

I wouldn’t attribute American economic success to your freedom form government interference – America has large unexploited resources, a large population that is skilled. A single market of 270 million people with easy transport and HUGE economies of scale is what I would attribute it too. Italy has been a disunited country for some time, and only the north enjoys prosperity and south is lacking. Europe until very recently and not even really yet enjoys the same economic conditions. Until we get true freedom of movement, common language and common currency the ability to exploit 450 million people will lead Europe to exceed north America but only then.

Re your last bit, what I’m saying is not socialism (“god dam commies”) but the European situation – on average the gov takes 40% over here (UK), it’s different on the continent BUT its relative. If everyone in the same boat then everyone still is entrepreneurial. ALL humans want more money to get better goods and services – the basic economic problem 😉

PS I believe Defence spending in the US accounts for only 4% of our gross domestic spending, but also it contributes to many high tech well-paying jobs, and expands the boundaries of science and technology, as well as preserving the peace, or putting a hurt on someone who deserves it!!!!

GDP is very misleading from an economic point of view – the 17% of your federal budget when compared to other nations budgets (and bearing in mind what services said budgets give out) is much more interesting

But leaving the “military-industrial complex” in place just as a jobs programme :rolleyes: – come on. You do spend a lot on R&D but I think some of the investment doesn’t have the level of civilian cross over you give it credit for

Take say the 1920’s – record low US defence spending yet high innovation. I think that industry is capable of R&D itself and military R&D has today little crossover value

BTW – sorry this is so late been VERY busy

rabie 😉

The term “pre-emptive” strike was invented by Aristotle. He thought an offensive war was justified if used against barbaric people.

“What crack are you smoking!!!! Exactly who attcked them that they had to defened themselves from?? Did the US attack them on Dec 6th.”

Pre-emptive Self Defence means to attack someone you think might attack you. The US has used this to justify attacking Terrorist groups intent on attacking the US (ie attacks in Yemen)and to attack Iraq on the premise that in the future Iraq might become strong enough to attack or take control of Saudi Oil and therefore get a monopoly that threatens the US’s position in the world (ie hurt America).

As I explained as the Japanese moved through the pacific they were going to have to take on islands the Americans had a presence on, like the Philipines etc. This would result in the US entering the war against Japan which would presumably start with an attack… that attack is what Pearl Harbour preempted.

Geez, as an American military person I’d have thought you’d have understood a term your own government invented… even if they didn’t do it first.

Thanks for the facts, though I already knew them… nice to know you knew them.

You should add the oil embargo the US among other countries imposed on Japan that made Japan want Indonesian oil in the first place… that could be seen as an act of war too.

All those nice things the Japanese did to their neighbours like China and Korea… It was very good of Bush jnr to include North Korea in the axis of evil… Iran, Iraq and NK… gee whiz which one do you think is japan in this axis? I bet Reagan would have loved to have been called an “evil version of Stalin”, much the same way the NKs would have loved to have been compared to WWII japan and been called evil too. Bush Jnr really knows his diplomacy…

“I’m not in intel I’m a pilot in the USAF but we recieve intel briefs prior to every mission so I get alot of info that way”

Now you are not in intel… quick career shift.

“and my father didn’t recieve an education in Italy, read the post!!!! “

I said:

in Europe you don’t get an education,

Hahahaha you Americans are funny… Italy is in Europe!

“So now your envious because someone was a financial sucess without a formal education? Your psyche is becoming clear, a lonely sad man, pissed off at anyones sucess or nations sucess.”

Very intuitive…. I make fun of the fact that your world view is based on Europe failing to give your father an education and the US allowing him to make a lot of money despite that setback… and you go back to the old… your jealous of the US…

GarryB,

Sorry to be picking on you today but you deserve it,

Let me get this straight,

“The japanese attcked Pearl Harbor under the guise of Pre-emptive self Defence”
What crack are you smoking!!!! Exactly who attcked them that they had to defened themselves from?? Did the US attack them on Dec 6th. They had been attcking the Chinese since the mid 1930’s raping their women (rape of Nan-king) etc but they attacked the US for self defence?? Before World War ll the US military was ranked 12th in the world behind Portugal!!!This is a fact.

I bet your one of these guys who believe the Atom Bomb shouldn’t have been dropped on Japan,
I’m not in intel I’m a pilot in the USAF but we recieve intel briefs prior to every mission so I get alot of info that way……..and my father didn’t recieve an education in Italy, read the post!!!! So now your envious because someone was a financial sucess without a formal education? Your psyche is becoming clear, a lonely sad man, pissed off at anyones sucess or nations sucess.

“It was a calculated risk, by the Japapnese. Yamamoto himself, did not believe that the US would roll-over and try to negociate a peace in order to avoid war, but his position was over-ruled, Hence his famous quote after Pearl Harbor
“I suspect we have awakened a sleeping Giant” Yamamoto had traveled extensively in the US and attended some schools in the US so He had a different perspective on America.”

I already knew all of that thank you. Why, based on this information do you think that Japan attacked the US thinking it was weak? The US was looking for an excuse to join the war anyway. Japanese forces were approaching areas like the Phillipines where to contiunue they would bring the US into the war anyway… the reasoning that hit them hard and hit them now while they are most certainly not ready in the hopes ideally of knocking them out of the war or more sensibly take away their capability to fight the war properly for quite some time equates to a low opinion of the US?

What the US likes to call a day of great infamy was a rather well thought out attack on a powerful rival for control of the region. Rather than being a stab in the back (the US and Japan were hardly allies) it was as I mentioned preemtive self defence… had they gotten the US carriers then they might have bought themselves anything up to a year or two to strengthen their hold on their gains in the Pacific.

“I’m in the US Air Force and propbably know a little more intel on these events than you.”

Congratulations… does this position of inside knowledge tell you about attacks and further plans for attacks even after the mighty warrior of bush jnr destroyed the evil regime in Afghanistan… I guess after the feeble attacks by Clinton the bold attacks made by Bush jnr have resulted in Osama just giving up and giving in?

“By the way I’ve always heard nice things about New Zealand, but aren’t you the country that has essentially shut down your Air Force, I guess you can dismantle your military and hope that if it is ever needed the Aussies and US will bail you out.”

We were given the choice of maintaining our old Skyhawks ad nauseum or buying Pakistans… no, Indonesias… no someones clapped out F-16s. In the end we realised we don’t actually use our fighters except for airshows or pretending to be anti ship missiles for Australias navy. The likelyhood of us actually needing them would be zero so we withdrew our Skyhawks and are not buying F-16s. Of course the fact that you are in Intel would suggest that you would realise that fighters make up only a small proportion of a real airforce, we still have transport needs, MPAs, and helicopters, so although the fighter and trainer component are now gone we still do have an airforce.

If you really are in Intel then you might know 1/3rd of our army is currently overseas and appart from the currently topical illegal military operation we have had troops in most UN sanctioned wars, from Vietnam, Cambodia, Bosnia, and many other places too.
While I do see your point that a dozen Skyhawks would be pivotal in the defence of our country (2,500km south of Australia) that in practise any country able to get down here in force would not be troubled to take out our only military airbase with Skyhawks stationed at it anyway.

Better to waste money on LAVIIIs that we actually use.

“this came to light most recently in New York, when a Columbia U professor wished
“a thousand Mogadishu’s on our troops” “

Perhaps he or she was not happy with the ease with which the US likes to drop bombs on other countries. When things blew up in New York you took it rather personally… The World Trade Centre, The Pentagon and a failed attempt at the Whitehouse. Ironic that these would probably have been on a NATO list of targets had they been in Belgrade or Bagdad.

“My Father left Italy and became wealthy here with no formal education or skills, largely because he was free to pursue his goals free of most rules and regulations/taxes, that may discourage many others.”

Yes, that says it all doesn’t it… in Europe you don’t get an education, and in the US you get rich… not to mention bomb little countries occasionally.

Geforce, Arthur

You guys don’t get it, The amount of money the US spends on defence is Huge, but still only a very small part of our national budget, and no offence ,but Many smaller countries can be neutral, but when the chips are down, you know it will probably be the US to come help.

I notice many Europeans are amazed that we don’t have Health care for all in the US but the majority of the people here don’t want it! Americans don’t view governmennt as a solution to most problems, usually government is the cause of many problems. Its ineficient, slow, andLike I said before, tax me less and I will provide the health coverage for my family, at a cheaper price and better service. As a military man, I can vouch that the healthcare I recieve in the Air Force is poor compared to the coverage at my civilian job, and if the governmnet can’t take care of healthy young people in the military what kind of job will they do for the rest of society. By the way I travel around the world and rarely do I meet anyone who thinks socialized medicine is good, You may feel its free, but your probably paying, $600 a month in extra taxes, whereas I may pay $300 for better private.
Freedom is a wonderful thing, freedom from government interference in your life is great too, its what makes the US great, although inequalities do occur. No easy answer, but the government is no solution. This I feel is the huge difference in Ideology between the US and Europe. I can’t explain this any further, My Father left Italy and became wealthy here with no formal education or skills, largely because he was free to pursue his goals free of most rules and regulations/taxes, that may discourage many others. I for one would never try to start a business if the government will take half of my money., and when incentive is lost ,society stagnates and everyone becomes content just to get by……….sad, thats what happened under the communists and alot of socialism leads in this same direction eventually.
PS I believe Defence spending in the US accounts for only 4% of our gross domestic spending, but also it contributes to many high tech well-paying jobs, and expands the boundaries of science and technology, as well as preserving the peace, or putting a hurt on someone who deserves it!!!!

Gee Arthur, I didn’t know you were that leftist 😀

Ofcourse, I also think it’s true.

Geforce’s post inspired me to the following… load up and fire if it’s crap (but please substantiate it!). The thought behind it: Tax Justification.

The nice thing about a welfare state is that everyone living in such a state understands that the government money is (at least to some degree – inefficiencies and such disregarded) well spent. It is automatically justified within the borders of that welfare state.

On the other hand, a government which prefers to spend the bulk of it’s resources on ‘defense’ needs some other way to justify it’s spendings to it’s population (after all, the people pay taxes which the state then spends). A military can be effectively used as a deterrence (as the US military during the Cold War) which certainly justified the money spent on defense for the tax payers. But with the end of the Cold War this changed for the US – even though paying taxes to support a huge military does seem to be a matter of pride for the US, one could argue that this would not be enough tax justification. Either the military could then be reduced in size (which did happen of course), or the military could be given a new purpose by using it for expeditionary purposes.

Fire away 😉

TTP, some interesting points you have.

Well, the difference between the US and the EU is that the EU is a welfare “state”. In Belgium, the gov’t does anything to protect its citizens. If someone is poor in Belgium, that is because either way he is too lazy to do something, or because he refuses to accept something. But, and this is where many Americans make mistakes, the state doesn’t GIVE money. The state helps people to find a steady job, keeps them healty, but will never give money so you can buy booze and drugs from it. In fact, the gov’t stopped giving cash money to the poor and now these people recieve food, clothes and cheques instead.

We pay a lot of taxes in Belgium, 55 % of the income goes to the state. But this means that everyone has the chance to go to college, without having to serve in the army for example.

I do think our gov’t should put more money in defence. But as a neutral state, the majority of the population does not think this is necessairy. And actually I can’t give any arguments to defend why we should have a bigger military here. Belgium choses to stay neutral in any conflict (sometimes we have to pay a high toll), which means we can spend more money in other things like healthcare.

while i completly understnat your viewpoint and its your desciona as an american citizen to ake we over ehre are frnakly aghast at the alck of healthcare for all – we hate the state’s inablitly to do anything but you lack of provison of healthcare for all is scary.

on the other hand you say what you say yet you spend somthing like $380bn on defence – almost the smae as the whole world combined, so….. 😛

rabie 😉

Frank VW,

Thanks for your response, Sorry to hear you don’t have the money for a license, I know it is very expensive in Europe, which goes back to one of my points in a past post. You stated that your taxes are quite high, but in return you recieve some degree of “security” in your life from your government. While not trying to give a civics lesson here, most Americans would rather give up some of the percieved benefits that government provides, and instead would rather pay much lower taxes, and be responsible for themselves and their families to provide medical, retirement, job security etc etc. I find this to be the most important debate today in the US and a big difference between the US and Europe. Americans by and large feel the government should have very little involvement in our lives other than to protect our rights and defend our nation. Frankly Government does a poor job at anything else. This philosophy of the “rugged individualist” is part of the American psyche and I get the impression that many non-Americans can’t relate to it. It is also what drives Americans to accomplish alot. You’d be amazed at what people can do when red-tape, and high tax burdens are eliminated. People have incentive to work harder, start new businesses etc etc. I fly with many European pilots who agree. Of course I’m not speaking for everyone and many Americans want the government to tend to their needs.
Getting back to your flying license, i did my Private Pilot back in 1985 for $600 US approx 48 hours!!! I was very lucky to have my best friend as my instructor and he never charged me for instruction!! and alot of my flights were flights that he had to make for work, and I went along as a “friend” while he instructed me!!! Then the US Air Force did the rest. Today in the US I’d guess it would cost around $2,500-$3,000
Although those micro-soft flight sims are remarkable too and alot cheaper!!
Take Care, TTP

Ok, no problem then.

And to answer your last question, the majority is composed of enthusiasts, like me. (Unfortunately, I don’t have the money to pass a licence).

There are some real pilots, and some other ppl with military ties, or a military past. Seek for the number of postings, and you will find the “old ones” 😀 And, there is one thing i learned here, never judge someone on some posts, make yourself an idea on a longer period.

FrankVW
Sorry if My tone was insulting. In the US today there is quite a debate between the right and left especially in the area of public education. It seems alot of the “hippies” of the 1960’s became teachers and college professors and are spewing alot of left-wing rhetoric and politics to children, this came to light most recently in New York, when a Columbia U professor wished
“a thousand Mogadishu’s on our troops”
This comiing out of one of the most prestigious Schools in the country, also alot of the anti-war protest groups were found to have serious left/socialist/communist backing and were more concerned with Destroying Bush’s presidency as opposed to the war itself. That said, we use the term socialist around here to denote many groups who reside on the left of the political spectrum, not necessarily real socialists.
Since you have been on the forum a long time, I have one question, are most of the participants pilots, or just aviation fans?, Just curious because I spend some time on Pprune.com and this is far more professional in nature in regards to aviation subjects, as well as political, seems to me alot of young kids spewing off alot of rhetoric, just like our “hollywood” knuckleheads have been doing as of late, Though I must say after the events of the last few days they are all eating crow.

Originally posted by TTP
FrankVW, Geforce,

FrankVW I majored in political science and am quite aware of the differences between socialism and communism, I think we have 2 different perspectives, understandable coming from 2 different countries, but remember Lenin said it himself socialism had to be obtained in order to reach a state of pure communism. Your “brand” of socialism in Europe may favor the workers, but it also taxes the hell out of them, and stiffles any incentive for entrepenureship and innovation. I know many Europeans who come here to the States who complain that the burdensome tax structure and accompanying bureacracy make it quite difficult to start your own business or thrive. I personally feel that is what is dragging Europe down, You can’t compete with the US and Asia because your costs are too high, due to your social programs, Hence your only viable markets are largely in the west/US. We have a similar issue trying to compete with third world manufactureres

TTP,

First, you are right about the social structure, it is very heavy, and a strain on everybody. I can say I let around 50% of my brutto earnings go to taxes and social security. But, on the other hand, if I’m jobless, ill, or simply old and retired, I still get money, and can live without the rist to become homeless. I can also go to hospital, without fearing of a too high price. That is called solidarity, and it works, and I wouldn’t swap it for anything in the world.

Secondly, in accordance to your studies, i’m a bit disappointed you made some insulting and rather stupid comments like “socialist schools”. Because, I can’t believe that the educated person you are could ignore reality just to replace them by a personal, and wrong picture.

Even if I do not agree with the current US politics, I really don’t see why I would Insult you, or any of your countrymen. SAme for any other country.

I can easily remember a time where this forum saw discussions between Israelis and Arabs, about the situation in the middle east, and that did not turn to insults, but remained VERY civilised.

Unfortunately, it is apparently not true anymore 🙁
It would be great to stick to the facts, and stop flaming each other on personal matters.

Arthur,

Are you implying that you don’t think there are WMD in Iraq?
Just look at the last 15 years, Iraq used chemical weapons against his own people, the Iranians, and this whole war culminating in his demise has been predicated on the issue of his failure to prove to the UN that he destroyed the weapons he was KNOWN to POSSESS. Just think all he had to do was to show the UN, not the US where the weapons were or how they destroyed them, and he’d still be in power, and NO WAR, yet he failed to do this over a 12 year period, incurring sanctions on his people and ultimately the destruction of his twisted regime!!! Yet, I guess you may be right since we haven’t found any WMD’s Only loads of Atrophine, Gas masks, Artillery shells modified for chemical ops, countless soldiers testifying about training in chem-ops, Camoflauged plants, run by an ARMY GENERAL, supposedly making fertilizer or pesticides!!! intercepted signet about chems etc etc etc , I don’t know where your from, but where I live the local fertilizer plant isn’t camofluged and the guy that runs it is named Bubba!!!!
Wake up and smell the coffee, In a few days all the dirt will come out, and you will be proven wrong,
I think you guys purposely put up some of these posts to illicit responces, you can’t possibly believe half the stuff you say!!!
I’ll be glad to talk with you guys about flying or airplanes, but as far as politics are concerned, its not worth the effort. You just keep that red star on your post, symbolic of what was wrong with the world for so long.

GarryB

You need to brush up on your history, Admiral Yamamoto has been quoted numerous times, as well as other Japaneses who were there, as stating that most if not all the proponents of attacking the US believed that if the attacks were devastating enough that the US would sue for peace and allow the Japanese to take the oil from the east Indies. It was a calculated risk, by the Japapnese. Yamamoto himself, did not believe that the US would roll-over and try to negociate a peace in order to avoid war, but his position was over-ruled, Hence his famous quote after Pearl Harbor
“I suspect we have awakened a sleeping Giant” Yamamoto had traveled extensively in the US and attended some schools in the US so He had a different perspective on America.

As far as Osama Bin Laden, Your point just supports mine!!! The fact that Al-Qiada attacked the US in 93(First world trade center bombing) then again with the Kobar towers, I was there 1 week prior, African embassies and finally the USS Cole, and all the US did, Under Clinton was lob a few cruise missilies only emboldened Al-Qiada to continue more attcks!!! I’m in the US Air Force and propbably know a little more intel on these events than you.

By the way I’ve always heard nice things about New Zealand, but aren’t you the country that has essentially shut down your Air Force, I guess you can dismantle your military and hope that if it is ever needed the Aussies and US will bail you out.
Wish I was as smart as you, Learn the facts first….Read about Yamamoto, very facinnating man.

Re: WMD

Originally posted by PhantomII
You’ve already made up your mind that he doesn’t have chemical weapons.

…then followed by a whole tirade of Phantom II being absolutely sure Iraq has chemical weapons, even though there still is absolutely no evidence for that. Except, of course, a plant where chemicals were made. Gosh!

Phantom, it’s really ironic you assured Geforce you’re not dumb in this post. I can’t really say it’s one of your most intelligent ones.

WMD

Again, Geforce, by assuming that I’m not very smart, you get on your little high horse again. Rather, sad in my opinion, but if that’s what floats your boat….

Just out of curiosity. As arrogant as you are, do you get many dates?

Regarding Japan, I think the reasons for their attack was a bit of both. They felt that the United States was the only country that was capable of giving them a hard time in the Pacific, but at the same time they assumed we didn’t have the stomach to go into a World War with them.

And, Garry, I’m just baffled by how you consistently make Saddam out to be someone he’s not. You’ve already made up your mind that he doesn’t have chemical weapons. You totally ignore the fact that the UN gave him all the time in the world to hide these weapons. In my opinion he hasn’t used them because he felt that international pressure would make the United States and Britain back of. In the long-run, if he doesn’t use them, many people (such as yourself) will assume he doesn’t have them and never had them. Then, the United States and Britain will look pretty bad then won’t they? Of course I’m assuming you’d enjoy that anyway. The weapons are there are we will find them given the time. They are only now in the initial stages of scouring that country in every possible spot for the weapons.

The chemical plant that was so well camouflaged they found several weeks ago is proof enough in my opinion. While, I don’t believe they have proven that weapons were produced there, it is still a plant where chemicals were produced. Why didn’t the UN Inspectors find it or know anything about it? Why was it so well camouflaged from the air? Come one Garry, despite the fact that you hate the United States with a passion more than I can ever imagine you’ve got to admit that Hussein had the weapons and they are in the country somewhere.