HP Victor?

Victor with Blue Steel.

PS – Blue Danube did not have a flat nose. It was Yellow Sun which had the flat nose.[/QUOTE]

Sorry –Senior moment. I was mixing up BD and Yellow Sun Mk1 . I mostly worked on YS Mk 2. YS1 was very high maintenance and was on it’s way out when I arrived.

Er… I think you’re confusing “constant doubting” with a sensible dose of realism and cynicism, n’est-ce pas?

I’m not “relying on old information” at all – that’s the point. The Victor photo is well-known and has been the subject of comment for years. I was (am) merely trying to establish the truth behind it for once. Or maybe you’d prefer me to simply churn-out the same old comments yet again without checking them?

I am not persisting with any “dodgy Aberporth info” other than that a drop was allegedly made here (although I have yet to verify this). Whether one did take place or not, it’s clear (based on posts made here) that it was not the one which is featured in the afore-mentioned photo. As for being “improbable” I can assure you that a Vulcan certainly did perform a drop (not an “attack” as you quaintly put it) on the Aberporth range, so it’s hardly improbable that a Victor did likewise, even though I am starting to doubt it.

From the above posts it seems clear that the Victor as illustrated did perform a full-load drop but that still doesn’t entirely convince me that the photo isn’t manipulated. It sounds as if it might have been possible to capture the whole released load in one small photo frame but it does seem doubtful and many commentators have raised this point before, hence my questions. The drop was performed purely for PR/political motives (your comment that crews had to practice dropping the bomb load is a bit wide of the mark – releasing a full load such as this was a very rare event indeed) therefore it is far from unreasonable to imagine that the picture might have been modified to squeeze the entire load into one neat photo – this being the objective of the exercise. All I was trying to establish was whether this is indeed the case, rather than rely on gossip and/or uninformed opinion.

Anyway, I should mention that, contrary to your comments, I’m not “writing a Victor book” at all, it’s just a small booklet project in fact. I don’t know who will want to buy it when it’s done but your sweeping comments about the public not being interested and enthusiasts doubting the information are just plain silly and vaguely offensive. What makes you imagine that a writer who doesn’t discuss matters on a forum is somehow more capable and informed than one who does? Maybe it’s the authors that don’t discuss subjects and ask questions that you ought to be worrying about? Anyway I don’t slag-off your job on a public forum so perhaps you might extend the same courtesy to me?!

This is why I’m somewhat sceptical about authors that write many books on a broad range of aircraft types!
Your contstant doubting in the face of good information, relying on previous mistakes which you keep trying to raise, is something that seems to happen when you ask for information about your next book project on the forum.
Surely a Victor book should be written by someone who is familiar with the type and knows where to research the info properly, not relying on old info and a forum?
You persist with the dodgy Aberporth info when it is highly improbable that the range was used for this kind of attack, yet you doubt the picture showing the Victor dropping the bombs, which they did have to practice.
Another coffee table publication that either the public won’t be interested in or the enthusiasts of the type won’t wan’t because of doubts with information within.
I’m sorry for this blast, but I read these requests for book information on these forums which you then question and doubt, or use your previous hunches to counter argument, and I really do wonder.

The only thing that still seems a little odd is (as I mentioned before) the practicality of getting the entire load of bombs into a picture cropped that tightly. Do we really think that the entire load could be released within that small amount of time/space? I tend to go with the belief that it is a manipulated photo with 2-3 images merged together.

Sorry, but I’m beginning to feel a little frustrated here. The interval between bomb releases was determined by setting the release interval to afford the required impact spacing. Eg, 35 x 0.1 gives a complete release sequence in 3.5 sec. In real time, timings would be less than that but I don’t recall that we were in the millisecond range. For the purposes of the photo, I would assume that they used the minimum possible time interval; perhaps .01 or .02sec

That’s good to know – it has cleared-up a tale which has been going around for years about the true identity of the aircraft involved and the range used.

The only thing that still seems a little odd is (as I mentioned before) the practicality of getting the entire load of bombs into a picture cropped that tightly. Do we really think that the entire load could be released within that small amount of time/space? I tend to go with the belief that it is a manipulated photo with 2-3 images merged together.

PS – Blue Danube did not have a flat nose. It was Yellow Sun which had the flat nose.

Chox– I can assure you that XH 648 dropped those bombs on the Song Song range. We were at Butterworth with XV Sqn after having been rushed out to Tengah on Exercise Profiteer to wave the big stick at Indonesia. After Xmas the 4 Cottesmore aircraft moved to Butterworth while four from Honnington stayed at Tengah. From memory the bombs had been pre positioned at Butterworth years previously and were near their use by date so it was decided to do the full load exercise.

The Victor was fitted with the 12/24 way bombing system for conventional bombing [ as were many other aircraft ] It was a fairly complex system that originally needed huge pieces of test equipment that filled the body of a Karrier Bantam 1 ton truck. Smaller versions became available but all Cottesmore bombing up teams had an electrical fitter to test the aircraft before bomb loading. The 12/24 system worked on a series of rotating switches and certainly would have had no trouble releasing a load as per the photo, in fact what you see there would be similar to the effect of operating the jettison switch. To fit the 35 bombs involved removing the long range fuel tank to accommodate the front upper and lower carrier. Two carriers of 7 bombs were attached to the roof of the bomb bay and the other 3 suspended in the gaps which gives you the pattern you see. In the photo I would estimate that no more than 3-4 seconds have elapsed since release of bomb #1 and #35. Remember the bombs are travelling at the same forward speed as the aircraft on release and so will stay in that pattern until drag kicks in. I’m sure the accompanying Canberra took a whole sequence of shots, this being the most dramatic. The duty Range Officer at the time was an RAAF Sabre pilot, a tribe not easily frightened, but even he was reported to be “somewhat concerned ” when told what was about to hit his range.

To answer an earlier question Blue Danube was a large bomb [ nominally 10,000 lbs ] with a flat nose to allow it to be fitted behind the long range tank. The test equipment for it was towed behind a vehicle and looked like an old fashioned Fish Fryer. Consequently the testing of the aircraft electrical system prior to bomb fitment was known universally [ even in the F700 ] as “Fish Frying “. Blue Danube was replaced around 1960 by Yellow Sun.

Ozbrat

I’d agree with you. We arrived at Changi mid-64 for the Indonesian Confrontation. The photo was front page, almost A4 size on the “Straits Times”, with an acompanying editorial. It pointed out that ‘each of these bombs can be individually dropped on targets as small as footbridges” – approximately their words – not mine. So most probably not Photoshop, bu PRop.

Mo

Why not? I don’t know whether it really would be possible but to me (and a lot of others) it does seem a bit doubtful?

Well it was certainly possible when I had to learn (and remember) the armament systems for the 3 V’s whilst at Halton in the early 60’s!

How about a full stick of 31 bombs?………

Wouldn’t want to get in the way of that lot!!!!!.

John.

You can see this awesome machine at Duxford. Thankfully, she’s now under cover in the Conservation Area awaiting some long overdue TLC. Good luck to her.

The plot thickens! So if you were there at the time, you can testify that an aircraft did specifically go off to do a photo shoot of a full bomb drop? This is very interesting because it flies in the face of the current story (told by Gunston et al) that the photo shoot was done in the UK (Aberporth I believe).

I’ve never seen the picture so labelled as such, and I mentioned in an older post on here that it was a FE range.
Song Song sounds right as it it had a large high-level bombing target pontoon for V-bomber and Canberra use and was used by the V-force for dropping 1000lb’ers.
Did Aberporth even have a bombing range, capable of taking that sort of pounding?

No thickening of plot or trickery, I fancy – just a great pic from an era when we had the kit that could do this sort of thing. In fact I’ve seen a pic of a camo Victor doing the same thing.

Why not?

Would be a bit of a surprise for whoever is holding the control column?! But I think the main doubt was over the practicality of getting a complete load of 35 bombs in the frame of one tight photograph. I don’t know whether it really would be possible but to me (and a lot of others) it does seem a bit doubtful?

Victor Mk.2 and Blue Steel Weapons.

Just to give an answer to :- NEVH and Pagan01’s mentions of difficulties loading a Blue Steel Missile into the bomb bay of a Victor 2. I was a young RAF Airframes man out in Adelaide ,Aussie at Edinburgh Field 1962-5 working on Victor XL-161 at 4 Joint Services Trials Unit. We loaded some 20+ ( I was involved with ) Blue Steel Missiles onto XL-161 for live firings on the Woomera range, these all left Aircraft OK, but only half a dozen actually did what they were supposed to.

The actual loadings comprised of Aircraft and Blue Steel teams sliding the Missile in from the left side of Bomb bay to underneath and then winch up into position and connect up,etc. The Blue Steel sat on a very low purpose built trolley, which acheived this easily. The Victor sat on concrete pan, (Not nose jacked or anything else) and the Blue Steel top fin was folded down to give bomb bay clearance at back end. XL-161 had a modified Bomb Bay in respect of the side panels could be removed to allow Missile to slide into position and then all replaced once winched up. The actual loading process itself was quite quick, the Missile would be in and up into position in about 20 mins. but connections, tests, wrap ups and loading fuels taking longer.
(Remember we are talking about High test Peroxide and Kerosene–a lethal mix )

Also XL-161 was always re-fuelled itself to amount reqd. for flight before she was moved down to Loading Bay. Loading bay was a hawser ring fenced std. concrete pan at bottom end of Edinburgh Field to keep this lot away from personnel in case of the worst scenario, that of explosion of B.S. Fuels. So 161 would be sitting at her lowest positions, every time Blue Steel was loaded and I do not remember us having any difficulties with that.

I never made it back onto the Victor Blue Steel RAF Squadrons,once left Aussie, as Blue Steel was already “Dead” politically, so I don’t know what procedures the RAF used for loading Blue Steels onto Victor 2’s. So anyone able to tell me? I do know that Our 4 J.S.T.U. procedures, if adopted by RAF would have served the purpose fine.

And few more notes:- XL-161 was all white. And she was the only Victor to spin and survive with a Blue Steel on board (July 1962–Just before I arrived in Aussie ) Although Blue Steel was jettisoned. (Well you would wouldn’t you). After that there were big wrinkles on top inboard wing skins of 161 (Over intakes) that were Red Line Entries to be cleared each day of flight, which I did many times. And yes, the Victor did twist a lot with different fuel states and loads, and getting those back hatch fasteners tightened was murder when Bomber was loaded with Aircrew kit and “Pressies” for away visits. (As Mad Jock mentions ) So yes, the Victor wouldn’t have lasted long in Low level role, but she was a nice aircraft to have known. XL-161 had working nose “flaps”, the Hydraulic Systems stop Cocks placed in Bomb Bay for isolating systems on fault finding were great thinking by design teams.

Shame that Victor XL-161 was scrapped at Lyneham in 1996, of all the Victors, she should have been retained. I last saw her in late 1980’s out in Oman, Thumrait and said my goodbyes then.

Thanks for raising this interesting thread.

Bill T

[Could the whole load be dropped like that? Doesn’t seem very likely…

Why not? 5 x 7-Store carriers operating in the appropriate release sequence was always possible – it may be wasteful but that’s another matter. Of course, the B-52 can still do it albeit with more!

😀

I was the electrician on the bombing up team that loaded those 35 1000lb bombs on to XH 648 in Jan 1964.

The plot thickens! So if you were there at the time, you can testify that an aircraft did specifically go off to do a photo shoot of a full bomb drop? This is very interesting because it flies in the face of the current story (told by Gunston et al) that the photo shoot was done in the UK (Aberporth I believe).

It also raises the question of the actual picture. Could the whole load be dropped like that? Doesn’t seem very likely…

Ah the joys of the Victor and the Vulcan. Far preferred the latter as most of the bits acually fitted. Did a Victor taiplane change at Saints during a major- we had to try three different t/p’s before we found one that would fit and as for panels- forget it. All replacement panels needed cutting and drilling to fit unlike most of the Vulcan ones which just needed a bit of a trim.

Apparently our 231 is/was the longest Victor in the fleet… And yes the stress panels can be a mare, depending on fuel state, how she’s settled etc!

Then he writes that he doesn’t want to spoil the story…
Anyone know what that might be? A bit of airbrushing or cut & paste (pre-photoshop)?

From what I can find out, it seems that the photo may well be an excellent example of pre-Photoshop manipulation. Apart from the vaguely questionable nature of dropping a full load of 35 bombs all at once (and miraculously getting them all into one film frame), it seems that the drop was done as a one-off exercise (over Aberporth I believe?) and that it was a different aircraft to the one featured in the photo.

If some (or all) of this is true, then the photo is simply a promotional fake which has been published as “real” far too many times.

I was the electrician on the bombing up team that loaded those 35 1000lb bombs on to XH 648 in Jan 1964. They were loaded at RAAF Butterworth and dropped on the Song Song range off Penang.It was only the second time the full load had been fitted [ the first was at Boscombe Down during trials ] and the photo was taken by a PR Canberra from Tengah which flew alongside.

We all wanted a copy of the photo but the Armament Officer i/c the detachment said that it was top secret and it was years before the photo was published in aircraft magazines.

Note to self, check dates before posting…..:rolleyes:

The link to the Valiant is right. A further thought; how robust was the Victor itself at low level? Given the move from high-level to low-level penetration tactics for the V-Force, probably the Vulcan was more able to absorb the stresses and buffeting associated with ultra-low level. That, and the contortions involved in uploading a blue steel into the Victor airframe probably made the Vulcan the preferred choice in the bombing role. At the same time, the Victor remained suitable in the Strategic Reconnaisance role.

However, a Victor in the conventional bombing role might have been an interesting resource to hand during Gulf War I… (and of course would have handled the Black Buck missions, where the ironware was delivered from medium altitude).

I’ve been led to believe the same. Just to expand slightly, the Victors wing’s flexed an awful lot more than the Vulcans rigid delta, meaning that although the Victor crew’s were a lot more comfortable than the Vulcans, the fatigue life would have been cut dramatically short – possibly leading to an incident similar to the Valiants? – and therefore it wouldn’t have been sustainable.

Alex

Then he writes that he doesn’t want to spoil the story…
Anyone know what that might be? A bit of airbrushing or cut & paste (pre-photoshop)?

From what I can find out, it seems that the photo may well be an excellent example of pre-Photoshop manipulation. Apart from the vaguely questionable nature of dropping a full load of 35 bombs all at once (and miraculously getting them all into one film frame), it seems that the drop was done as a one-off exercise (over Aberporth I believe?) and that it was a different aircraft to the one featured in the photo.

If some (or all) of this is true, then the photo is simply a promotional fake which has been published as “real” far too many times.