Before I get flamed for not saying Sully was a saint, let me emphasise that he obviously did a fantastic job and deserves all the praise he’s been getting from people who actually understand what they’re talking about (as distinct from journalists).
That out of the way, I’ve just heard the ATC tapes and was curious that the word ‘MAYDAY’ didn’t appear; is this just an Americanism? In fact, the crew didn’t (technically) even declare an emergency, though that’s awfully nitpicky of me – TRACON obviously realised the situation was serious because they used the word themselves in asking immediately for take-offs to be blocked. Not a criticism of anybody, really, so much as a reflection – it would have made no difference to the immediate or follow-up rescue efforts, but wouldn’t it have at least cleared all other traffic from the frequency? How do we think Sully felt when he had to share the frequency with inbound traffic at a time when he really, really needed to focus? And how was it for that traffic, being worked by a controller who had a very worrying emergency on his hands, with all the signs of a fatal crash on his watch (though not his fault)? Given the stressful circumstances, one thing I took away from hearing the tapes was what a first class job the controller did. But I’d be interested to hear what others think of the tapes that have been released?
By: steve rowell - 19th February 2009 at 23:44
This has been brought up by many NTSB reports in the past, that crews forget to use Mayday in their transmission.
It can lead to ATC confusion or not realising that the emergency is actually a life and death situation.
Exactly …have you read post No 6
By: Gary Cain - 16th February 2009 at 08:15
I think they were way to busy to worry about radio protocol. The checklist for an engine out emergency has 19 items on it for the A320, then from below 3000 feet they had to wade through 45 items in the Ditching checklist,
kudos to the entire crew for getting their jobs done.
Gary
By: slipperysam - 16th February 2009 at 07:00
Mayday is the offically recognised (ICAO) phrase to use when there is an emergency in which life and death is threatened.
I have only ever heard numerous PAN calls over the radio over the years when i was actively flying.
(Also its common to hit the alarm for the firestation as soon as Mayday or PAN PAN PAN is heard, at least on tower freq.)
Its more “apparent” that its lack of use in the USA is a problem.
I can recall many years ago that a friend of mine was criticised (by the then CAA here in Australia) for not using the word Mayday when the engine in the Cessna 207 he was flying in failed.
(He was at 8000ft over the airport with a load of parachutists!)
His reasoning was the plane was sinking like a stone and he needed to get clearance to kick the jumpers out first! But it all ended well.
Like was said… he wouldve been very preoccupied with trying to locate a place to land and possible restarts etc…
Still if thats the only criticism he gets in the NTSB report.. then he should be able to get some comfort that he did all the right things and it all turned out well.
And it does make for great training footage!
By: JEJeffrey - 15th February 2009 at 16:37
Slippery Sam’s post takes us back where I began this thread – it echoes my own views entirely. From everything else that has been said by contributors to this thread, it seems that:
a. MAYDAY is indeed in the vocabulary in the US, but just isn’t used very much, for reasons which aren’t clear to me. (Maybe this is more of a military/civil difference than a US/UK one?).
b. It wouldn’t have made a lot of difference in this case, because the crew could obviously tell from the controller’s responses that he understood, sympathised, and was on their case! (But I still think the other aircraft on frequency were a potential distraction, though I don’t know enough about the circumstances to judge whether that could have been headed off).
c. One possible reason an explicit MAYDAY call was not made is that the crew were very, very preoccupied with priority #1 – FLY THE AIRCRAFT. We can all approve that principle, I hope. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a useful tool that ought to have been deployed, at least in the ideal world. That’s the world that Sully didn’t have the luxury of living in for those few minutes.
NTSB have raised a similar point in other reports. I just wonder if they will feel diffident, in this high-profile case, about making what some might see as negative criticism; I hope not. More likely, they will stick to their professionalism and say ‘Mayday would have been a good idea (though it wouldn’t have made a whole lot of difference in these specific circumstances)’. That will be the cue for volumes of hysterical reaction from non-flyers, most of it missing the point of the second part of the sentence. But that’s just me showing my prejudice about journalists!
By: sekant - 15th February 2009 at 12:35
If I recall well, the crew of the SR111 that crashed off Halifax was criticized because it never used the word mayday, and that traffic control did not catch right away the gravity of the situation and clear a direct path to Halifax (although, if I recall well, it would not have made any difference because they could not have reached Halifax no matter what).
By: slipperysam - 15th February 2009 at 11:53
This has been brought up by many NTSB reports in the past, that crews forget to use Mayday in their transmission.
It can lead to ATC confusion or not realising that the emergency is actually a life and death situation.
Once a Mayday is heard it also tells other crews to immediately SHUT UP on the airways and allow the aircraft with the emergency to transmit without interuptions.
An “Emergency” can mean anything…. and is not “proper” or recognised radio traminology.
Thats not to say the crew did an excellant job!!!!
By: Moggy C - 15th February 2009 at 11:47
It’s only the popular press and TV that are using the ‘H’ word.
To the rest of us he’s just a top-notch pilot who, when it all went to worms, made the correct decision within seconds and carried it through immaculately with the assistance of the rest of his crew. (As he is quick to acknowledge)
Moggy
By: Bmused55 - 15th February 2009 at 10:45
I don’t think I’ve ever heard MAYDAY used on frequency. Usually the pilot in trouble just states their callsign and that they are declaring an emergency and what initial assistance they want or what action they are taking (returning to the airport or need EMS to meet the aircraft on the ground).
Well now you get to hear it 🙂
By: Bmused55 - 15th February 2009 at 10:44
Firstly what is it about Sully being branded a hero? Why is it always “he did this, he did that”? What happened to “they”? It’s a 6 man crew (4 cabin crew?), and they all did a wonderful job, the cabin crew did theirs by getting everyone off safely.
Secondly, they (he) did nothing that wouldn’t have been done by anyone else, their only option was the Hudson, and they had a whole lot of luck on their side.As for the Mayday, well all hell would have broken loose in that cockpit, you can practice emergencies in the sim, but when it happens for real it probably does funny things to your “procedures”, I can only imagine it got overlooked because of the chaos.
I agree with the second part.
In one or two of the transmissions from the plane, you can hear alarms going off.
The pilots would have been far too busy making sure they don’t plunged into the city.
There was a lot for them to do in a very short time. They did a good job.
By: xpboy - 15th February 2009 at 09:31
i agree with deano! i work in the rail industry where sometimes all lines have to be declared stopped within minutes for some reasons and sometimes the chaos takes over what the “text book” procedure is!:)
By: steve rowell - 13th February 2009 at 23:06
By: paulc - 8th February 2009 at 20:42
I went to an aviation talk last week and one of the incidents mentioned was of an RAF Victor tanker returning from exercises in the USA. The aircraft suffered a double engine failure and needed to land asap. Crew called a mayday to atc (they were at 41000 ft) and got no answer and it was not until another airline crew suggested they declare an emergency (rather than a mayday) that a response was given. The aircraft diverted to Wright Patterson and landed safely.
There is a similar situtation within the UK and europe with the use of a ‘pan’ call which is familar to the UK but not to europe
By: Whiskey Delta - 8th February 2009 at 19:18
Secondly, they (he) did nothing that wouldn’t have been done by anyone else, their only option was the Hudson, and they had a whole lot of luck on their side.
Perhaps their only option in hindsight was the Hudson but that doesn’t mean others would not have tried to drag it out to TEB, EWR or back to LGA. There are too many accidents where pilots don’t chose correctly or just plain push their luck. So I for one wouldn’t say what that crew accomplished would have been done by just anyone else.
Here’s the excerpt from the Aeronautical Informational Manual regarding emergency procedures. None of the AIM’s procedures are mandatory (ie a regulation), just guidelines.
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap6/aim0603.html
I don’t think I’ve ever heard MAYDAY used on frequency. Usually the pilot in trouble just states their callsign and that they are declaring an emergency and what initial assistance they want or what action they are taking (returning to the airport or need EMS to meet the aircraft on the ground). “Cactus 1549 is declaring an emergency and is returning to the airport”. The controller asks the nature of the emergency and starts planning accordingly.
I think the radio traffic during the event was normal for that type of event. Most of the chatter was the controller moving aircraft out of the way or switching them off frequency. You also have to remember that there are still pilots being switched onto the frequency handling the emergency who don’t know what’s going on. I’m sure it happened quickly but as soon as the emergency is declared the tower controller would stop handing off his departing traffic to that frequency to minimize the workload.
Personally I would only see using MAYDAY in a situation where there would only be time for 1 radio transmission. Even in this case there was plenty of time for the pilots and controllers to exchange information.
By: JEJeffrey - 8th February 2009 at 14:02
Yes, I’m sure that it was busy (!) in the cockpit, and I didn’t intend to make a major criticism by poiniting out the lack of a MAYDAY call. (I speak from a limited but sympathy-provoking experience – just one 4-engine flameout in 36 years, and quite different from this one: A. It was copilot finger-trouble that did it B. We had plenty of altitude to sort it out, and C. It was in the simulator).
But I still wonder if the NTSB (it’s their job to be wise after the event, after all) will make anything of what appears to have been a lot of extraneous chatter on TRACON frequency, and whether a clearer declaration might have buttoned that up. I’m just interested to hear the views of currently-practising professionals.
By: Deano - 8th February 2009 at 11:02
Firstly what is it about Sully being branded a hero? Why is it always “he did this, he did that”? What happened to “they”? It’s a 6 man crew (4 cabin crew?), and they all did a wonderful job, the cabin crew did theirs by getting everyone off safely.
Secondly, they (he) did nothing that wouldn’t have been done by anyone else, their only option was the Hudson, and they had a whole lot of luck on their side.
As for the Mayday, well all hell would have broken loose in that cockpit, you can practice emergencies in the sim, but when it happens for real it probably does funny things to your “procedures”, I can only imagine it got overlooked because of the chaos.
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February 8, 2009 at 10:48 am