Hunter F.58s ZZ191 and G-HHAE/ZZ190

HHA Hunters

HHA still own the aircraft and operate them from an engineering perspective. They will be flown by very experienced FRA pilots who have undergone conversion training by HHA QFIs.

I went looking around for shots of ZZ190 and ZZ191 today and found this one taken of ZZ191 at Bournemouth a few weeks ago:
http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1027146/

I guess this may turn out to be a fairly rare shot if the Swiss flag is to be deleted?

A question for HHA ENG. Are the aircraft being operated by HHA or FRA? Do HHA still own them, or have they been sold to FRA? I know some FRA crew are flying them (or at least will be).

ZZ190 and ZZ191

They are very much back in military service. They are now off the civil register and no longer regulated by the CAA. Regulation is undertaken by TESD (Formerly D Flying) and the TAA (Type Airworthiness Authority) under the military regulations stipulated in the AvP67 publication. This is a set of rules and regulations which encompass the engineering procedures, airworthiness assessment and through life management of continuous airworthiness. In addition it covers the required systems of work to operate the aircraft safely as well as the operational aspects of flying the aircraft in a military environment.

This is without doubt a great achivement for HHA and we are unique for a company of this type and size to be awarded this status which is indeed testament to the engineering and operational professionalism of the company.

It’s not back in military service – it’s being operated on contract work for a specific requirement.

It’s operating under military serials for a military contract-to me that is back in service just not in the conventional sense of the word and not in the role it was intended for.

serials are allocated and de-allocated, I imagine that serials are recycled.

UK military serials are issued for a speciifc airframe and I am not aware of any examples (at least in recent times) of re-allocation to a second aircraft.

The use for many years of the system of “black-out” blocks of unused serials, supposedly to make it harder to assess the number of aircraft of a given type acquired, surely contributed to the rate at which the available numbers were used up.

It’s not back in military service – it’s being operated on contract work for a specific requirement.

Who’d have thought that, so many years after they retired from RAF service, hunters would come back into service? I certainly would never have thought that a ’50s design(sorry 40s design, in service 50s) would be brought back into service in the 21st century. Can you imagine something designed now being brought into service in 60 years time?

hunter repaint

I dont see anything wrong with her paint scheme? She looks a sexy beast to begin with and having roundels on her again influences that!

serials are allocated and de-allocated, I imagine that serials are recycled.

off topic: UK Serial batches

Perhaps not a question for a historic forum but what will happen to the next aircraft once ZZ999 has been allocated???

Roger Smith.

Roger I think that will be a long way off – certainly I doubt it will happen in my lifetime. The ZZ range seems to be being used for the COMA aircraft, with a degree of ‘personalisation’ based on the aircraft type in certain areas. The ‘in sequence’ numbering is only now entering the ZK range, so theres a few hundred slots still to filled before ZZ999 is reached.

Theres an article just been uploaded to our aviation group site on ‘personalised serials’ its available to view at:
http://www.wolverhamptonaviationgroup.co.uk
for anyone interested and the full rundown is available at:
http://www.ukserials.com

Aye, earning their owners some money instead of soaking it up. And aircraft last longer if they are kept operating, rather like cars in that respect.

If they are going to resort to military serials on them it might have been nice to have put original service period roundels on them.

Nothing wrong with the roundels – they’re perfectly appropriate to the “original service period”. If one really wanted to be picky then they seem to have been painted too far aft – but who cares? It’s a real treat to see these beauties working for a living again!

Perhaps not a question for a historic forum but what will happen to the next aircraft once ZZ999 has been allocated???

Roger Smith.

A valid question none the less, even if it does really belong on modern military rather than historic.

Perhaps not a question for a historic forum but what will happen to the next aircraft once ZZ999 has been allocated???

Roger Smith.

These two were new-build machines.
There are a couple of F58As based in the UK that were formerly RAF aeroplanes. Miss Demeanour for instance started out as RAF F.4 XF947, but was bought back and converted to F-58A specification as J-4104.

OK that’s a fair one then. Thanks Jagx204. That has made it much clearer for me. I now understand even better why the decision was made. Long may HHA continue to thrive as it’s nice to see work going to, rather than away from, British organisations.

ZZ190 was J-4066 G-HHAE/G-BXNZ
ZZ191 was J-4058 G-HHAD/G-BWFS

Many thanks!

As to their historic significance in the UK were they new build aircraft when they went to the Swiss or refurbished ex-RAF machines? If the latter they have a certain meaning in terms of UK aviation history (probably as one of the last decent export stories)

These two were new-build machines.
There are a couple of F58As based in the UK that were formerly RAF aeroplanes. Miss Demeanour for instance started out as RAF F.4 XF947, but was bought back and converted to F-58A specification as J-4104.

This was the reply we had from HHA when we enqiured as the reasoning behind these two aircraft being allocated ‘new’ miltary serials.
When the serials were first published on our sister site ‘www.ukserials.co.uk‘ there was a high degree of scepticism within the spotter community as to the accuracy of our info, when an enquiry was made to clarify the situation, here’s the response we had:

Hawker Hunter Aviation is one of the largest operator of ex military
jets, certainly in Europe.Our main goal is to provide assets for
military contract to undertake many of the tasks that were
previously carried out in-house by our armed forces. Other income
streams are through corporate advertising, display jet sponsorship,
pilot training/conversion, film and tv work amongst other things.

HHA have been awarded AvP67 status to undertake this kind of work
on behalf of the MoD. The two aircraft now on the military register
are essentially miliatry aircraft, operating under COMA (Civil Owned
Military Aircraft). AvP67 is the publication under which aircraft on
COMA are regulated. This means that HHA as an operator and
maintenance facility are controlled, inspected and audited under
military regulations and in order to achieve the status the company
underwent some serious investigation and inspection. Aircraft on the
military register must be marked as military aircraft and have
military registrations, this is the law and not a badge of
convenience to get fuel at military airfields.

This has been a major achievement for HHA and is unique for a
company of this type and size to be awarded such status and is
testament indeed to the professionalism and high regard the company
is held in by the CAA and military regulators alike. Have a look at
the HHA website at www.hunterteam.com to gain an insight into this
fast growing and somewhat unique aviation company.

I hope this goes someway to allaying any speculation on this subject.

Essentially the operation is similar to that of Northern Lights in Canada, or any number of operators in the USA. The difference being whereas they can do it whilst still being on their respective National civil register, the rules in place at the CAA mean they have to be military registered.

HTH

I believe the aircraft are being used in connection with a BAe Systems need for fast moving targets. HHA have always courted work of this nature and I am sure if HHA were not doing it Northern Lights would be. If BAe Systems needs this kind of facility they will approach the Mod and other operators and choose the package and price that suits them best.
The requirement to use military serials means that the aircraft can be operated for reward and it’s less restrictive in the type of flying that can be carried out. What people need to realise is that U.K air display work wouldn’t keep large numbers of Hunters in the air – the generocity of their owners and other types of flying keep them in the air.
As for the markings they have – what colour they fly in is irrelevant – these Swiss Hunters have no great historical connection with the U.K.

I take your point about keeping Hunters on the airshow circuit. Actually you raised a few points which I had overlooked. HHA are obviously going to go for something that keeps the aircraft flying and brings money into the coffers rather than taking it out, that is sound commercial sense. As to their historic significance in the UK were they new build aircraft when they went to the Swiss or refurbished ex-RAF machines? If the latter they have a certain meaning in terms of UK aviation history (probably as one of the last decent export stories)