Hurricane down a Duxford 06/06/04

Yes yes much comment of the experts as ussual “you shoudn’t have sad this or i would not have said it that way etc … as long as you people can give comments….and do some post replies it’s more like a sport for the most of you

Well said Bart, I have to agree that it looks that way sometimes, I’m in the Warbird industry & have mostly stopped posting anything that might possibly be interesting through knowing about the subject for this very reason!
Cheers…………..

Quoted from Flood:

Maybe you do – but when those of us not at Duxford (or those stuck in traffic?) hear that there has been an accident then we want to know what is involved and did anyone get hurt (maybe not in that order); then we will want facts. And to be perfectly honest you wouldn’t get them from any TV channel today. “

Just curious but how will a post on a website help if you are stucjk in traffic??
I didn’t suggest that the TV was the best souce of information, in fact all I orginially suggested was that the phrase [a/c]down was not wise as it suggested something that was not at all the case and may have connotations that were distressing.

“This accident happened on possibly the one day (hopefully) when the news medias cameras and reporters were nearly all elsewhere – if you (like me) were scanning the TV teletext pages and desperately checking and rechecking the schedules for the next news bulletin then you would probably have been happy for any news available.
Take it from me that it was slow coming – there was an explosion in Kent which destroyed three houses and an old lady was dragged from the ruins, a woman was shot dead and two injured by a gunman in Oxfordshire, 13 people were injured in North London after a fairground ride collapsed, and a spectator was killed at a motorcycle trials event in North Yorkshire. But the TV news had lots on the D-Day celebrations (which was fantastic – wish they would cover all the memorials with the same zeal) and a great deal about Reagans death – I heard nothing on terrestrial news about the Hurricane nor these other stories, so please don’t point fingers and tell people to wait for the informed authority to muster its PR team.
If you are willing to wait until the facts are available then simply don’t look at threads like this one – although you could be waiting (in some cases) for up to five years… “

By facts I mean,for example, “a hurricane has had an undercarriage leg collapse while taxiing, no one hurt”. Is that really so difficult.

The response to what I considered a sensible request for sensible titles rather than headlines worthy of the tabloids seems sadly to have eluded the majority.

At the time of the “hurricane down” post their was also a “mustang down” title to to a thread on the forum. Compare the two incidents and maybe you will see what I mean. |hats it for me I really can’t go on spelling out the need for common sense in reporting incidents. Sorry if “Bart” has got embroiled in this but thats life

Fluffy – thanks for the update. I’m glad to hear that the damage to LF isn’t too serious, and hope to see her flying again soon, and that the BBMF’s luck changes soon!

Small section in the Mirror today about the Hurricaine ‘A world war 2 fighter crashd during Duxfords D Day anniversary airshow’ Seemed upset that no one was hurt, also no need to exagerate the story 😡

BBMF’s last 10 days

Right just got back, so let me clear up a few things

PM631 is still at Southend and should be back at Coningsby next week, by road when the engine will be removed and sent to Retro for checking. No one has said the engine is a write off.

PZ865 should be back at the end of the week after the radiator has been replaced

LF363 is still under investigation and will probably return to Coningsby by road, she isn’t as badly damaged as she looks. We have an idea of what happened but I can’t give you any info at this time. I hope you all will understand.The fire section and DAS were excellent with the handling of this incident and caused no further damage when putting her back on her legs

PA474 /AB910 / MK356/ ZA947 finally what a fantastic tribute to the veterans these 4 a/c were for the D-Day celebrations, especially the poppy drop.

Lastly ROBL250 it’s not Becky she left at the beginning of the year, sorry.

PB

Indeed it is, Dave; usually unintentional, sometimes catastrophic; all the luck of the draw, really, dependant upon speed, config, what the terrain is like, etc, etc.

But it can also be deliberately used to avoid a big ‘un; some years ago the legendary Bob Hoover was up in the sky at one of the Reno Air Races and shepherded down a racer with a problem – got him down on the runway and instructed “Groudloop -now!” at the right moment in order to get the unfortunate individual safely on the deck with no injury and minimal damage. Quel hombre!

I think it’s on the video called RENO-Sky fury best of skyfire including Reno 88.It’s a typical american style video lots of commentating [YEUCH] and top gun music [yeuch] with lots attiude type personalities.

Indeed it is, Dave; usually unintentional, sometimes catastrophic; all the luck of the draw, really, dependant upon speed, config, what the terrain is like, etc, etc.

But it can also be deliberately used to avoid a big ‘un; some years ago the legendary Bob Hoover was up in the sky at one of the Reno Air Races and shepherded down a racer with a problem – got him down on the runway and instructed “Groudloop -now!” at the right moment in order to get the unfortunate individual safely on the deck with no injury and minimal damage. Quel hombre!

Something that concerned me a little about the recovery is a photo on this board showed the aircraft after they tipped the tail back down.The photo showed the Hurricane resting on the starboard wingtip, and then an airbag is being inflated underneath.

Would it not be better to have had some sort of support like the airbage under the stbd wing beforehand that it could be tipped onto? I’m just thinking in terms of whether resting all the weight onto the tip would cause any problems for the wing itself, as it’s taking the weight load so differently from what it is used to? I’m no expert in these matters, just wondering that’s all. I guess all those Duxford and BBMF people know better, and this is in no way a criticism.

Also, is the circumstances of this incident where it had trouble and veered off the runway with little control what they call a groundloop? I’ve read the term ‘groundloop’ many times but I’ve never actually found a satisfactory explanation of what this phenomena is. Or can many different causes lead to a groundloop? I know it often seems to wreck the aircraft but I think this is at higher take-off/landing speeds.

Cheers
Dave

“It was initially a general comment on sensible posting before we get underway with displays this summer,”

Which is very valid, and which, as you know, I totally agree with.

“if we have “xxxxx down” everytime a typhoon or a hardent photographer from Lowestoft coughs we will all be confused and fed up.”

I’d be confused. Where would the Typhoon be flying from? Am I hardened or ardent? I agree, the choice of words is wrong with hindsight, but we don’t all share the same vocabulary and know of the connotations. Even those of us with English as our first language. Or those from Norfolk. Yes, we should make sure we have the full ‘gen’ at hand before calling our hand, but that isn’t always possible. I knew that an aircraft had crashed at legends a few minutes after it happened. It was half an hour before I knew which one, and even later when I knew anything bar crowd speculation. And it was all very, very disturbing. But, i’m glad I knew that something had happened early on. Now, i’m off to work, can we all calm down please?

No the Hurricane was landing in the opposite direction to the way it was facing in the last picture. As it looped round it ended up facing in the opposite direction.

I would just like to say a big well done to Duxford. It shows the saftey measures work. Even though the Hurricane spun a considerable distance off the runway and the public, it was still well away from other aircraft, the pilot was ok and the plane is repairable. The fire trucks were there right away and they did a top job of lifting the aircraft, even if it did take sometime :).

So well done!

Duxford 20 June 1976

AB910 did a nose stand at duxford in June ’76 after the starboard u/c pintle failed, Hurri did a leap frog. Are we talking of the same incident with the planes reversed?

Don’t ask how I got there ahead of the emergency truck! 🙂

Mark

Notice the plane landed downwind (I think thats the direction) where the weather-sock is blowing, or did it turn and then collapse.
Also does anyone have any word on that state of the aircraft, or is it too early to assess yet.

A further batch of LF363 photos, the pose of the aircraft is very reminiscent of an accident that occured during the filming of the Battle Of Britain.

Septic.

What I and others I imagine will want is FACTS, otherwise their are any number of television channels we can watch.

Maybe you do – but when those of us not at Duxford (or those stuck in traffic?) hear that there has been an accident then we want to know what is involved and did anyone get hurt (maybe not in that order); then we will want facts. And to be perfectly honest you wouldn’t get them from any TV channel today.
This accident happened on possibly the one day (hopefully) when the news medias cameras and reporters were nearly all elsewhere – if you (like me) were scanning the TV teletext pages and desperately checking and rechecking the schedules for the next news bulletin then you would probably have been happy for any news available.
Take it from me that it was slow coming – there was an explosion in Kent which destroyed three houses and an old lady was dragged from the ruins, a woman was shot dead and two injured by a gunman in Oxfordshire, 13 people were injured in North London after a fairground ride collapsed, and a spectator was killed at a motorcycle trials event in North Yorkshire. But the TV news had lots on the D-Day celebrations (which was fantastic – wish they would cover all the memorials with the same zeal) and a great deal about Reagans death – I heard nothing on terrestrial news about the Hurricane nor these other stories, so please don’t point fingers and tell people to wait for the informed authority to muster its PR team.
If you are willing to wait until the facts are available then simply don’t look at threads like this one – although you could be waiting (in some cases:() for up to five years…

Flood.™

Mr Snapper

It was initially a general comment on sensible posting before we get underway with displays this summer, if we have “xxxxx down” everytime a typhoon or a hardent photographer from Lowestoft coughs we will all be confused and fed up.

Melvyn, cynical no, but at a guess I would blame the new traffic scheme on the M11

Bart, it is definitely a general comment and has history here……..

cheers

Melvyn

My point is that their does seem a rush to use the forum to report “incidents” without time for thought and this is neither neccessay or a good thing, especially as we are keen to criticise “the press” for such transgressions.

I agree, I am actually waiting for the speculation about the cause to start! (Am I getting cynical?)

My only concern is that there is a tendency on all forums to forget that what you write in black and white can come across very harshly. I know this is part of the thrust of your comments about the use of the word ‘down’, but things have looked a little anti-Bart which is unfair to him.

In all cases, whether it is posting news, rumours of criticism the rule should be think first, post second.

Unless, of course, you are thinking of criticising Kylie which should NEVER happen.

Melv

I see six of one, half a dozen of the other. Argument over, valid points from all sides, no points being scored, the Hurri is bent but not broken, and the pilot is safe and well. Up, Down, Sideways, we received the information, it was clear and to the point, and the post itself was good. Lets not bicker.

(Bart, it isn’t about you, but about many things being said, here and elsewhere, and misinterpreted in yet more places. Welcome to the forum).

Melvyn

Point taken but the phrase “(aircraft) down” has implications, and “Bart” has eleqantly answered a criticism in English (more than I could do in any other language).

My point is that their does seem a rush to use the forum to report “incidents” without time for thought and this is neither neccessay or a good thing, especially as we are keen to criticise “the press” for such transgressions.

I will reiterate that if it isn’t good news we will all hear soon enough. What I and others I imagine will want is FACTS, otherwise their are any number of television channels we can watch.

ROBL250-oh yeah, I missed the survival equipment personnel page of the brochure when I just checked!

Nice piccie of her posing on the Hurri, innit? :p

Sorry, back to my point.

As ever, think then post.

regrds

Fair comment but let us also remember that the original poster was not posting in their own language. Could anyone have done this in Flemish or French with as few mistakes?

“Down” is only an inferred meaning due to previous experience. Remember that down can also mean landed and there is no grammatical convention that rules that ‘down’ has to mean crashed. Our foreign friend did his best to inform which is what this forum is about isn’t it?

Don’t let this put you off posting Bart, we are happy to see you.

Melvyn Hiscock