Hurricane Katrina

What is it they say, a picture is worth a thousand words

it’s a screw up at both the federal and state level. While SOC has pointed out where the state level has screwed up.. at the federal level.. you had FEMA and a bunch of bureaucratic nonsense, such as blocking supplies to areas that needed it and refusing other aid from both other governmental organization, private, etc.
http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2005/tst091205.htm

182MAN

Can you provide us with the specifics behind your claim that the shooting in NO were countless? No volence in Munbai because it wasn’t reported? A great opportunity to mock the U.S. and celebrate the suffering of others. You couldn’t resist.

Sauron

When you build below sea level, the ocean will win. period.

The Netherlands aren’t called ‘The low countries’ for nothing. Indeed, the sea will win, the sun will explode, in the meantime the Dutch have a society with tight gun laws, moderate drug laws, high tax a good deal of which is spent on sucessfully keeping the sea out, and a stable below sea level society.

Of course it’s not a fair comparison. But there’s a lot around the world to learn from if you are prepared to.

These thiings happen because people fail to listen to arnings, make plans in advance, and depend oin others for their own saftey.

When you build below sea level, the ocean will win. period.

I fell very sorry for all the people caught up in the Katrina disaster. Why do thses things have to happen 😡 . There were loads of hurricanes last year, I missed Charlie in Jamaica by a day, but luckily then it was only a Tropical Storm (I think, correct me if I’m wrong) Phew!!

From
G-CDFF

Must point out that the Mumbai, an island, is not below SL and that makes big difference. But what is truly despicable is the shooting and looting.

Additionally, what pains me is the race card baiting by the Jesse Jacksons (Mr. Poverty Pimp himself), the Al Sharptons, the Maxine Waters and this Kanye West characters from that ethnic group. Anything, anytime, it seems to rip Bush a new one.

——————————————————————————–
Well, the “below sea level” issue is what makes the difference. The Hurricane
destroyed an area roughly equilivant to Great Britain. In all that area, only New
Orleans was subject to such lawlessness and difficulty. When you take more than
half of a major, densely packed city, and submerge it under 4-20 feet of water,
there’s just no comparison. It can’t even be compared to the other cities destroyed
by the hurricane, and certainly not th e27 inches of rain that fell on an island. The
rain isn’t the big deal – how many Lake Ponhcatrains and Mississippi Rivers were
opened up onto that island?

It’s a totally unique combination of natural events, poor-a$$ed planning, bad
organization, bad excecution, and a very VERY bad case of being at th ewrong
place at the wrong time (NO during a hurricane is basically the worst you can
imagine).

The most painful aspect is not that the city state and federal government were
incapable of doing anythign faster, it’s that they WERE able to do it, it just didn’t get
done due to Big government B.S., corruption and too many cooks in the kitchen,
making too many small mistakes at the same time.

Just to put things in another perspective –

inches of rain in new orleans due to hurricane katrina… 18

inches of rain in mumbai (July 27th)…. 37.1

population of new orleans… 484,674

population of mumbai…. 12,622,500

deaths in new orleans within 48 hours of katrina…100

deaths in mumbai within 48hours of rain.. 37.

number of people to be evacuated in new orleans… entire city..wohh

number of people evacuated in mumbai…10,000

Cases of shooting and violence in new orleans…Countless

Cases of shooting and violence in mumbai.. NONE

Time taken for US army to reach new orleans… 48hours

Time taken for Indian army and navy to reach mumbai…12hours

status 48hours later…new orleans is still waiting for relief, army and electricty

status 48hours later..mumbai is back on its feet and is business is as usual

USA…world’s most developed nation

India…underdeveloped by US standards..

Must point out that the Mumbai, an island, is not below SL and that makes big difference. But what is truly despicable is the shooting and looting.

Additionally, what pains me is the race card baiting by the Jesse Jacksons (Mr. Poverty Pimp himself), the Al Sharptons, the Maxine Waters and this Kanye West characters from that ethnic group. Anything, anytime, it seems to rip Bush a new one.

Disaster situations tend to bring out the extremes in our population. The good and
the bad. Good people will act really, really good, but the bad people act really bad
– violence, rape and pillage, etc.

You see many people trying to rescue helpless people, volunteering their time and
money to save others. And then you see worthless excuses for humanity taking
advantage of the situation. Next to every looter with a duffle bag filled with jewelry,
drugs and electronics, you see a sick person passing up valuables (they could easily
take) and walking out just with the medical supplies they absolutely NEED to
survive.

The same is done to those only indirectly affected by the disaster. Some will ignore
the failures and simply help, others will try to find out what went wrong, and yet
others still will take advantage and start throwing blame at whomever they don’t
like. I’ve seen it many ways – “Black people are incompetent, and should not be
entrusted with high level positions(the Mayor), and look what they do when given
the opportunity (loot).” “women are incompetent (the governor is a woman).”
“George Bush deliberately delayed federal relief because the black people of New
Orleans didn’t vote for him/he’s a racist”.

They’re using monty-python logic and not studying the actual events – If federal aid
was slow, and the aid was going to black people, then it must have been slow
because it was destined for black people! (She’s a witch because she weighs as
much as a duck, etc…)

Just the other day, Howard Dean, a enator and prsidential candidate in 2004,
HEAD of the Democratic party, said, in front of a large black group, that “race
played a role in disaster.” There is a misconception that Republicans are racist, and
that Bush is racist, in black communities (I guess because of things like this, and
peoplelike Sharpton and Jackson). All this does is get them pissed off at bush. It’s
sickening and unfounded. Federal relief had little problems in the other states, with
equally large balck populations. Some people are going to hear this tripe and
believe it. It’s very frustrating.

All I care is that whomever was responsible for whatever went wrong ets the blame,
and who was not responsible, does not get the blame.

Threads? I’ll have to look into that. I’ve got The Day After on DVD, I thought it was pretty decent.

“Threads” is a different animal from “The Day After”, Sean.

At the time it was first broadcast it quite disturbed me – mainly because my two eldest daughters were fast asleep in their beds at the time and one’s mind started to play the “what if” game as any parent’s mind would.

*** edited – please avoid personal digs and keep the discussion at least vaguely on topic***

Thank you

GA

*** edited – please avoid personal digs and keep the discussion at least vaguely on topic***

Thank you

GA

Incorrect. It was declared a disaster area one day before the hurricane even struck. Federal government appeared aware of what was about to happen and did their best within what is frankly a ludicrously bureaucratic system (I appreciate the reasons why it has grown to be like this, but they are no excuse). The local government then completely screwed the pooch and let the real disaster happen.

Exactly. It was the local government that screwed the entire situation up. The federal government had done what was in their power to do. What, did they expect Bush to invade New Orleans with the US Army? Imagine the outcry had that happened, even if they had somehow miraculously saved everyone. This whole situation is retarded. All people are doing is using it for political profiteering. Nobody seems to be sitting down and recognizing what the actual problems were and figuring out how to correct them.

You have a system that appears to have been dreamt up by idiots, so it is hardly a surprise it goes badly wrong when further idiots are expected to work within it.

Eh, we have a system that was great 200 years ago, but might not be the best way to run things in the 21st century. That’s how I see it.

I well remember in the 1980s US critics and audiences rubbishing a UK-produced television programme called Threads which predicted a total breakdown in society after even a limited nuclear war. The US produced a somewhat fluffier version, The Day After, which was not nearly as doom-laden.

It looks like the US has been planning for The Day After, but they should have been planning for Threads… good job we never had a nuclear war, because New Orleans gives you just a tiny inkling just how bad it would have been.

Threads? I’ll have to look into that. I’ve got The Day After on DVD, I thought it was pretty decent.

Well, after sending in donations, what else is there to do? Figure out what went
wrong, how it went wrong, and who caused it to go wrong.

All I see when I turn on the news are the same socialist anti-war protestors from th
epast few years changing their signs to read “Bush caused Katrina because he didn’t
sign Kyoto” and now, “People are dying because Bush is a racist”.

This is all over the place, and it’s insulting on a number of fronts.
There is a group of protestors getting hurricane refugees to protest at the white
house, saying that Bush must stop putting the blame on the local government and
accept responsibility.

The thing that disgusts me is that we have these displaced people, who were stuck in
a flooded disaster zone because of their dependence on the government for help
(excluding thsoe too weak or old to leave), despite their being warned to leave,
blaming the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT for not having an adequate exac plan.

None of it is acceptable. The violence is not acceptable. It’s sickening to see it in
my country – nobody’s denying that! I happen to find it even more sickening that
some people (CertainDemocrats, Race-warloard scumbags(JJ and AS, etc.),
Hollywood ignorants, and the like) have taken this disaster as an oppurtunity to
attack the president.

While he is the highest power, his power when it comes to State matters is not in fact
the “ultimate ” power. the President can’t send in the troops – the governer has that
power. The president does not have the ultimate say in matters of the sate.

I was immediatly sickened at the lack of evacuation preparation taken by the City of
New Orleans. I was also sickened by the time it took to get the relief into the areas
it was needed. The Red Cross had TONS of supplies to go in to the Superdome –
but the governer ordered them not to deliver it. They wanted people OUT of the
Dome, not flocking into it. apparantly they didn’t think that there were people
starving in the damned thing. The wonders of our modern big government
beurocracy.

Yeah, you’re right – I didn’t see the original Mad Max until a few weeks ago. Not
the same post-apocolyptic landscape as thunderdome… I thought it was still
supposed to be after a major war.

Nobody’s defending the way things came to be. There’s been some MAJOR F**k
up’s in the process, and people are going to have to answer some questions.
U;timatly, it’snot going to come down to racism, evil will or a massive conspiracy.
It’ll end up being big government burocrats, passing the buck, lots of misplaced tax
dollars and a big helping of corruption thrown in for good measure. All of it leading
up to mistake after mistake and lots of damage.

Regardless, the victims can go one of two ways: Blame the government for not
taking care of them, resettle and resume a victim mentality. OR, they can see that
this is an example of how we can NEVER depend on anything(especially
Government) but ourselves when it comes to our own safety and that of our family.

Wow this is unbelievable. This is where this forum has gone……….

I started a thread simply asking for a few prayers for the victims and it turns into a war where people are already debating who did what wrong, and what should have been done, etc.

Shouldn’t we simply focus on the disaster at hand and work at cleaning it up instead of worrying about who is to blame.

That’s one thing I hate about human nature…..it always has to be somebody’s fault.

Think of the victims and what they are going through.

Here here, i second that

Mad Max was after a nuclear war in a wide open, barren landscape.

Eh? Maybe the last ones were, but the original Mad Max was set in a time when there was still law and order (of a sort) and scumbags and vermin roamed the land. Not so very different I suppose, except it was set in Australia…;) – Nermal

Wow this is unbelievable. This is where this forum has gone……….

I started a thread simply asking for a few prayers for the victims and it turns into a war where people are already debating who did what wrong, and what should have been done, etc.

Shouldn’t we simply focus on the disaster at hand and work at cleaning it up instead of worrying about who is to blame.

That’s one thing I hate about human nature…..it always has to be somebody’s fault.

Think of the victims and what they are going through.

Hi Pluto,
Interesting post, your input appreciated (I didn’t see the unrevised version) and I take some of your thoughts on board.

I was just offering a view from outside.

I feel I’m hearing excuses, that can be summarised as accepting of these sort of deaths and devastation. For a civilised, affluent country, this cannot be acceptable to its citizens.

I am familiar with three federal countries, something that most Americans are often unaware even exist. All three countries face challenging environments, politics, populations etc – each has lessons and failures that can be learned by others, should they wish to learn. In my opinion all three fail to look outside their borders.

I have found the quote, from the BBC website here

“The only difference between the chaos of New Orleans and a Third World disaster operation, he said, was that a foreign dictator would have responded better.”

The laws that prevent this from happening are there for a damned good reason. The president’s power is great, but very limited in a national scope. We want him to have power over outside threats, but less power over us. This prevents him from becoming an all powerful dictator. There’s no way in all the nine hells that a president would ever come into a city or state push aside the elected government, and impose HIS will – not in MY country.

It is interesting that if I understand you correctly, Americans are happy to unleash a presidential foreign policy on the rest of the world, but won’t accept that same person’s policy at home. Hmmm.

A president does not. [have complete control of his country] No one man can adequately control all of a government, let alone respond to all emergencies. For those reasons, power is dispersed, and ultimatly, in the hands of the people.

Ultimate power? You are mistaken. More power than any other individual, yes. More power than all the other individuals, no way.

Indeed. I was not saying otherwise. From Wiktionary:
“Ultimate: last, final; the best; the biggest”
Not the most (power). I understand that the leader of the government is ‘ultimately’, that is finally, responsible for the country, and to it’s citizens. We probably agree in many aspects here, but as the responsibility lies with the citizens, it also lies with their elected representative, for without responsibility, what are they doing?

In state and local matters such as this…

It was a multi-state problem from the time the Hurricane approached the coast, it is clearly a national problem now. There will clearly issues with the widening and acceleration of the response – I cannot believe that the number of deaths are acceptable for what are, at the end, administrative reasons.

I used the ‘Mad Max’ quote with reservation – it is, of course, fiction. However, the lawlessness and anarchy that existed (at whatever time, but massively focussed and exacerbated by the hurricane, for whatever motivation by it’s perpetrators) is an indictment of the society that has it happen within it. It cannot be regarded as acceptable situation by a civilised country, surely?

There are some here that are protesting in defence of American politics and are not prepared to revise their pre-formed views. That is their prerogative, but I will not waste my time talking to those who are fixed in their views in the face of evidence, reason or debate.

Rob Rhor – you are entitled to your views, but unless your facts are correct (which they have regularly not been) and your arguments calm and reasons (which they have not been) you will not convince others. You cannot shout others down here. I am NOT a European. (For the record, I am an Australian with years of experience of Europe and married to a Canadian – a regular visitor to North America, both sides of the 49th) I have friends and relatives who are American and live in America. The activities of the USA are of interest without choice to the UK, Canada and Australia, among many others. I am only offering some thoughts. You are at liberty to disagree or ignore them, but please bear in mind that attempting to reject aid does no-one credit. No country has the monopoly of ideas, money or equipment. Other Americans (including Mr Bush, as President) are big enough to accept help.

I have nothing more to add, sadly. But I hope that there is some justice for the dead and dispossessed of New Orleans and the associated communities.

Regards

However at that point, the President could have taken charge and engendered urgency and broken some barriers, if he had believed it neccasary and appropriate, and over-ridden any limitations. This also did not happen. Whether this was a personal failure, a failure of the system or a failure of the political structure needs to be decided later – but it was
a failure.

This cannot happen, it cannot be allowed to happen.

The laws that prevent this from happening are there for a damned good reason. The president’s power is great, but very limited in a national scope. We want him to have power over outside threats, but less power over us. This prevents him from becoming an all powerful dictator. There’s no way in all the nine hells that a president would ever come into a city or state push aside the elected government, and impose HIS will – not in MY country.

I am intrigued by so many ‘hawks’ (I trust that’s an acceptable term) who are usually proud of the ‘can do’ culture and ultimate power of the President pointing out how many administrative problems he has in the way preventing him protecting his citizens. Ultimatlely, if true, these are
excuses which must be dealt with for next time.

Ultimate power? You are mistaken. More power than any other individual, yes. More power than all the other indiviuals, no way.

In state and local matters such as this, the federal government (including the president) operates at the request of the state, not on its own. This is not a problem. This is the way it must be.

Problems to be addressed are at the local level mainly, with the FEMA beuracracy needing some checking as well.

I find the image of police being shot in the back while trying to save lives beyond horrific. The murderer who pulled that trigger is primarily responsible. The creation of that ‘Mad Max’ type situation is a failure of the society, under incredible pressures.

No, not really. Mad Max was after a nuclear war in a wide open, barren landscape.

The situation in NO was one of oppurtunity a single DAY after a hurricane. The looting and lawlessness occurred before the real disaster – the breaking of the levees. The people that engaged in the looting and shooting were there for the looting and shooting.

Most people didn’t loot. These people did. They were the criminals and scumbags of New Orleans prior to the hurricane. They just stayed in large numbers and took advantage of the situation afterwards.

Whose fault it is I don’t know, but as one person said, reported on the BBC, a dictator would have done better at organising a reaction.

This is a gem. Of course a dictator could have been better at organizing a response. They have complete control over their country.

A president does not. No one man can adequatly control all of a government, let alone respond to all emergencies. For those reasons, power is dispersed, and ultimatly, in the hands of the people.

Unfortunatly, the people of New Orleans elected Major Nagin and Governor Blanco. They are surely not the only people who are to blame. It is clear that they were incompitent in the face of such a disaster (one that was so easily forseen, it has been a topic of college hydrology and hydrogeology classes for decades). They made a mistake electing these people.

Ever watch the mayor of NO speak? The guy makes George Bush sound like tony Blair…

If a president were to impose his power over the state and local governments, he woud esentially BE a dictator.

Then, we’ll have a disaster even bigger in scope than the hurricane.

*** edited – please keep the discussion on topic***
The simple facts are this, things went wrong, lessons need to be learnt. Who is to blame is entirely moot at this moment. Peoples lives are still in danger!