Hurricane replica mystery

Having looked at the points mentioned in the above answer (27) I e mailed Hawker Restorations some details and photos but unfortunately they have chosen not to respond which is a shame.
I would have liked to have confirmed where it came from for no other purpose other than to satisfy my curiosity. Its a shame as Hawker may have been interested in the original Hurricane radiator and mint under carriage selector unit which I also have. Ah well never mind !!

You seem to have indeed located the cast-offs that were left over when Hawker Restorations did a ground-up rebuild on the Wright-Patterson Hurricane which was (and still is) marked up as “Z3174”.

This was one of five incomplete Hurricanes which were obtained by David Tallichet and Bob Schneider (RRS Aviation) from Jack Arnold during the mid-1980’s. Schneider built up two static display Hurricanes using welded steel fuselages, one for the National Museum of the US Air Force (the one we are discussing here) and the other for Tallichet’s Military Aircraft Restoration Corporation (MARC). The latter aircraft is said to be RCAF 5662 but that is very difficult to prove, indeed when I examined it almost exactly a year ago at the Pima Air & Space Museum in Tucson I could find no evidence whatsoever of any i/d plates, although the airframe does include a lot of genuine Hurricane components.

The Dayton example was acquired in an exchange for a C-130 – not a bad deal for what was essentially a full-scale replica! It is said to be RCAF 5390 but that is impossible as that aircraft was lost at sea off Tofino on the west coast of Vancouver Island, BC, on 7 February 1944 and was not recovered. Another example of Jack Arnold’s “creativity” I’m afraid.

The Curator at W-P was always unhappy with the appearance (and construction) of the Hurricane and in January 2001 it was sent to Hawker Restorations at Earls Colne who rebuilt it to the correct configuration using non-airworthy components left over from other projects. This included a complete fuselage, new cowlings and a new fin & rudder. The aircraft was returned to W-P in August 2002 where it is currently on display.

When RRS Aviation of Hawkins, TX, finally shut up shop all of the left-overs were bought by Hawker Restorations and out of them appeared Peter Teichman’s “Pegs”, which is now known to be RCAF 1374 and not “5403” … Peter showed me the c/n plate in the cockpit from which I was able to confirm the correct RCAF serial. The paperwork was being adjusted to reflect this change of identity.

I think Ant, in the original list of postings (#21), was on the right track. See the markings on the picture below of Dayton’s pre ‘restoration’ Hurricane compared with those at #10. Although they show different sides of the fuselage the marking style is the same in all respects, as is the camouflage pattern.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]242390[/ATTACH]

The latest lead I have on this is that the fuselage was purchased from the Rebel Air Museum closure sale and was sold to someone in East Anglia which would tie in with the location of the person I acquired it from. Also it was supposedly used in the BoB film as a ‘trundler’ , that is a replica aircraft fitted with an engine for ground running only. The engine may have been from a motor vehicle or even a motor bike ? Again this would tie in with the fact the fuselage has working a tail plane and was clearly fitted with control cables.
Any comments or ideas would be gratefully accepted even if negative. The photos of the fuselage are in posting number 10

The BAPC Register is a useful way of keeping track of airframes with to clear identity and replicas that might change colour schemes. The photo is of a recent allocation.
I used to own Auster “TJ398” which is BAPC 70.

In answer to a question raised several posts ago (#20), that no one yet has attempted a reply to.

The B.A.P.C. (British Aircraft Preservation Council) “Register” is more of a listing of otherwise anonymous airframes, most without any Constructor’s identity or official registration. Unlike most ‘National’ registers which rely on an application from the owner before issuing a registration, the BAPC listing is mostly as the result of active research seeking our likely candidates – although some are as a result of BAPC group members wishing to provide an identity for their exhibit (today insurers love an identity). The ‘histories’ of the aircraft on the register are mostly put together by enthusiasts/historians rather than the ‘allocator and keeper’ of additions of the register. Very few BAPC registered aircraft carry their identity – I’m told though that several of the Newark Air Museum in the UK, exhibits do (which no doubt will rapidly be confirmed/denied by ‘Twin Otter’). The register would work best if airframes had to have a metal identity plate riveted on (effectively replacing the constructors plate) – but that is not the case.

The ‘keeper’ of the BAPC Register has changed over the years, started by Bob Ogden, then Doug Revell and by the early ’80s Ken Ellis, going on through a number of keepers since, the names of whom I’ve not kept up with. The register is still active, with recent additions. Although the criteria for inclusion has changed little, the enthusiasm for seeking out candidates has varied with time. The register now records over 300 otherwise identity-less originals, restorations, replicas, full scale models etc. Quite when the register was first started, I’m uncertain, but the B.A.P.C. was formed in 1967 and by 1978 the register recorded 124 airframes. There is a BAPC website: http://www.bapc.org.uk/

Hope this helps. I was involved ‘on the fringe’ during the early ’80s, but have lost touch since. The two places I look to for the register allocations in print are Ian Allan’s (now Midland) annual Civil Aircraft Markings and with a new edition on ‘even’ years of Crecy’s Wreck & Relics by Ken Ellis.

The “other” magazine published an article on the making of Angels One-Five a few years ago.

I’ve half a memory that there was mention of (a?) replica Hurricane(s?) being made for that film. Used for studio scenes perhaps?

It’s a long shot and it would be remarkable that one could have survived for so long without being “discovered” but you never know?

I binned most of my mags a while ago – anyone kept a copy?

I’m wondering if this is perhaps from the Canadian-built Hurricane that’s on display at the USAF Museum in Dayton, Ohio, marked up as Z3174. It came to the UK several years ago, and was said to comprise many parts that were non-standard/cosmetic. If I remember rightly (a rare event!), Hawker Restorations did a top to bottom rebuild on it and it’s now back in the USAFM in pristine condition. Perhaps this is a cast-off from that project?

Just a thought.

I think its fair to say that this is not a BoB item. I had a visit last week from the owner of BACP.73 who sold it to MOTAT in New Zealand. He has confirmed that the materials used to build Z3174 are different from the BoB airframes and that the build quality on Z3174 is far superior to the Bob airframes. He also believes that Z3174 was built to accommodate a running engine due to the quality and strength of the airframe pand because the control surfaces on the tail unit are fully.
I think the only remaining thing to do is to take the item out of storage and check for any internal markings. A cursory check has been made but a more in depth one is required.
Hopefully someones memory may be jogged
How do you access the BAPC register

If there is anyone out there currently undertaking a Hurricane cockpit reconstruction can you please PM me. I’ve picked up a replica cockpit, center section and original undercarriage so I may as well fit the cockpit out and would love to hear from anyone doing the same.
If any one lives near Norfolk and whats to inspect the fuselage to see if it can be identified then please contact me

…….Knowing the width and depth of knowledge displayed by forum members, I am more than a little surprised that no one has ventured any destination/current whereabouts for BAPC.68 which was on display with the Midland Aviation Museum at Coventry for a number of years, last known marked H3426. Surely someone knows where this this went when it left Coventry?…..

Where’s Mr Smith when you need him?

I cannot see that this one was the Bill Miles Hurricane as the condition was no way near as good as this one unless a major resto had been done. I remember Bills stuck outside between tow buildings with a cover over it, cannot remember the wings though.

TA

I was thinking that this rear fuselage may have come from the Bill Miles Collection machine at North Weald. I was part of this museum in the months when it closed down. Around 1990 the Hurricane, Harvard, Vampire T11, Canberra T4 nose, Hunter nose, and both WW1 replicas all went their separate ways. I’ll speak to a friend who may have some photo’s.

The Hurricane replica at Omaka came from MOTAT off their pole and is a BofB film replica but it came to NZ before the 1980’s as far as I know. MOTAT replaced their one with a different replica that they brought into the country, I think mostly fibreglass and less wooden structure than the one at Omaka.

The one at Omaka is in Operation Torch RAF colours, wearing the star and yellow roundel ring, this year. The one at MOTAT wears Sir Keith Park’s colours.

Pleased that this topic has appeared again to remind me that I have odd snippets to add to my major post earlier on BAPC numbers and B of B Film Hurricane replicas. In off forum discussion it appears fairly certain that the ‘untraced’ BAPC.73 that ‘disappeared’ from the UK very early ’80s is indeed the Hurricane replica at Omaka, New Zealand, which has worn a variety of schemes – is it still in American colours? However there is also thought to be an ‘older’ Hurricane replica in Australia – anyone know more?

Knowing the width and depth of knowledge displayed by forum members, I am more than a little surprised that no one has ventured any destination/current whereabouts for BAPC.68 which was on display with the Midland Aviation Museum at Coventry for a number of years, last known marked H3426. Surely someone knows where this this went when it left Coventry?

Looking at the links provided above to older forum threads, I don’t think my researches turned up the Bill Miles Collection machine at North Weald late 70s/early 80s mentioned in post #9 of the link provided by air-relics. Time window is possibly a little early to be the one acquired at a Museum sale early 90s (first post of this thread). Any thoughts?

Interesting thread. I was so certain that a ‘past’ could be found for Z3174 by members of this forum, two weeks on and we are no closer even to agreeing on its provenance as a Battle of Britain Film FSM replica. Surely someone knows.

Some references in this thread as well http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?32702-Torbay-Aircraft-Museum

also here may help
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?106577-The-last-Battle-of-Britain-Film-Hurricane

Not BoB film, I think they were all wood construction if I remember. Also I note the box frame looks in excellent condition and not that old.
I hope this helps

photos

Sorry for the late postings but I’ve attached some photos of the rear fuselage.
The tail unit itself is full functioning in that the flying surfaces are all operable and the rear fuselage at the tail looks heavily reinforced leading me to believe that an engine was fitted and that this was more than just a ‘non moving static’
Does any body recognize the construction technique. Having never seen any of the previous BoB survivors I don’t know if the are constructed the same. Still no details yet about the name of the museum that closed
For some reason some of the photo’s have uploaded up side down!!

Many thanks

Well, if BAPC.73 ended up in New Zealand, that certainly explains how come no trace of this particular Hurricane appears in UK aviation sources after 1980.

That leaves the main candidate as the airframe identified on paper as BAPC.68 – a known B of B. film replica survivor. Last known of (by me) at MAM, Coventry around the mid ’90s (ish) – I’m sure that it’s subsequent whereabouts are known and that someone will be along shortly to fill-in the missing years. Wether that will help or not, who knows?