I missed Avalon airshow(again) how was it this year

Battle

I have nothing against statics, save I am not interested in them other than as a source of a future rebuild-to-flying project. Obviously I am not talking about the BIG aeroplanes rather the smaller end of the market.

I think you need to understand that to rebuild an aeroplane from a pile of junk to a a flyable aeroplane takes years and costs A$100,000’s.

To overhaul a Gipsy Queen engine is likely to cost over A$50,000.

Thus if you are going to go to all that effort, then you might-as-well rebuild it to flying.

As an example think of the aeroplanes that used to be on poles at the front of RAAF bases and the like that have been taken down and are now rebuilt to flying.

Matt is a mate of mine and I first visited his parents house in the 1970’s when as you say he was going to rebuild the Boomerang to static. We managed to show him that he could do it to flying. In the 1970’s in Australia there was an attitude that old aeroplanes shouldn’t fly, so to rebuild an old aeroplane to flying was seen as near impossible (circa 1975) by the late 1970’s that attitude had changed thanks largely to groups like the SAAA-VAS, QVAG and AAAA.

As an example my Tiger moth had never been on the civil register and when I purchased it I was told by many “You won’t be able to register it!” by 1982 it was on the register, no problems.
cheers
Ross

Static vs Flying

Hi Ross , i have being reading this thread with interest yes i went on the Saterday and got very wet but thats the luck of the draw in any part of the country for any outdoor event.

But what do you have against static restorations as in this country there are many very historic static rebuilds both private and museum owned that are being worked on with an incredible eye for detail and original equipment fit , also many of these static restorers are very good at finding long lost parts for there own and other even flying projects , also someones static project today could become a basis for a flying rebuild tomorrow (Matt Dennings Boomer started as a static restoration).

I think there is room for both flying and static restorations as they can compliment each other , i have noticed in resent times in this country that there appears to be a growing attitude that if its not flying its not worth the effort which is a shame to see .

cheers dave

Mark

Strange you should mention that, I did a cut and paste on your email and sent it to the QVAG president, Frank Ragonese with the suggestion that it might serve as the basis for an article in Australian Vintage Aeroplane News. I was hoping that one of them may extend your list by adding the Queensland/Northern NSW ones.

Yes there are quite a number of interesting and active rebuild projects, I don’t follow ones that are to static, but among the rebuild-to-flying a recent one from memory is the DH Moth Minor, but as you say its a shame more is not forthcoming. I just had a quick look at their web site http://www.qvag.org.au and its a bit basic.

Frank Ragonese is only new to the job as President (but has been a very long term QVAG/AFM member). New broom so we may see some changes.

Re your comment about progress and rebuilding and the finished product – I agree. I have taken hundreds of photos plus high-res video (1920 x 1080) of my rebuilding project and have been compiling a DVD as I do. It’s just a personal thing to remind me of the rebuild project and what it looked like over time.

Being a rebuilder means that you really need to focus on your project (assuming you have a day job as well), maybe that explains why most rebuilders seem to ignore the “publishing the story as it goes” aspect. I have posted the odd image of my project in this BB, but I think I have reached the image limit. I do exchange images of my project with some people in NZ and England who are also rebuilding Proctors.

cheers
Ross

In short: Who needs Avalon??!! ……

NOT me the way it’s been done recently

Well, as we’re paying for it, I’d like something for my money. 😡

Too true. I’d like something for my money that goes into the Grand Pricks, too!

Mark

Thanks, that’s an impressive list of aeroplanes that one day will grace the skies again. I hope they don’t end up overseas (since the $A has dropped).
I had heard of the Cadets, are they under active restoration?
I don’t have such a list for up here in Qld/Northern NSW
cheers
Ross

Ross, I will leave Howard (Avro Cadet) above to confirm the current status and progress of his 5 Cadets.

There are some great restorations up north as you would be sure to know, John Sinclair’s Dragon, Ralph Cusack’s Beaufort just to name two of the more significant ones.

It is a pity groups such as the QVAC / AAAA / Warbirds dont have forums or websites that track and update these restorations, in a similar way to Gary Austin’s work on the CAF’s B-24 on the WIX forum.

I know the individual restorers are often too busy and uninterested in such “documentaries” but it is a great way to encourage others into the hobbie, but also to encourage those with forgotten parts in the shed to come forward and contribute them, rather than have them tossed down the tip.

I often find the “work in progress” more interesting than the completed outcome as access to internal structures etc provide a great insight to design and construction methods hidden later by fabric and paint.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Mark

Thanks, that’s an impressive list of aeroplanes that one day will grace the skies again. I hope they don’t end up overseas (since the $A has dropped).

I had heard of the Cadets, are they under active restoration?

I don’t have such a list for up here in Qld/Northern NSW

cheers
Ross

In short: Who needs Avalon??!!

Well, as we’re paying for it, I’d like something for my money. 😡

Mark,

5 x Avro cadets

Howard

hello Howard,

there must be something in all that Brown Coal smoke causing them to breed like that smiles, I knew you had one flyer and at least another 2 restoration projects, (& also thought you had parted with one) so I was being conservative in my count – and Ross was enquiring about restoration projects not airworthy aircraft in Victoria.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Mark,

5 x Avro cadets

Howard

In short: Who needs Avalon??!! There’s far too much fantastic stuff in the offing for the likes of us……

I was discussing this with a friend of mine who was in the general aviation industry when Avalon was held for the first time. As far as we are both concerned, Avalon was always first and foremost a trade show, aimed at the aviation industry.

Farnborough is / was a trade show with ‘quite a nice airshow attached’ at the weekend for the general public. Some years it has a significant historic presence, other years less so, but the trade and ‘new aircraft’ element was always large enough to make it worth a visit on that basis alone. That’s the model Airshows Down Under have copied, and the model works. For various reasons, including ‘can’t be bothered’ the aircraft element (trade or otherwise) of Avalon has declined to risible.

However, it appears that some bright spark has hit upon the idea of marketing it as an airshow…

I think you mean ‘Airshows Down Under has hit upon the idea of marketing it as an airshow to the Victorian state government and collecting a large bundle of free cash without any public accountability or significant performance targets.’ Money for old rope. But don’t worry, it’s a lesser rip-off than the A$40 million the Victorian taxpayer pays to the poison dwarf for the whiney-car circus each year.

Tyabb looking good for next year I understand, while the RAAF Museum Pageant (a free airshow) is on and should be good, and not forgetting the AAAA Fly In and airshow at Echuka on ANZAC Weekend will be good too – looking like a significant number of ‘first footers’ there.

http://www.antique-aeroplane.com.au/index.html?wid=58&func=viewSubmission&sid=69

I was discussing this with a friend of mine who was in the general aviation industry when Avalon was held for the first time. As far as we are both concerned, Avalon was always first and foremost a trade show, aimed at the aviation industry.

However, it appears that some bright spark has hit upon the idea of marketing it as an airshow and thus throwing the doors open to the general public. This in itself is not a bad thing, as long as the show itinerary is also engineered to the general public. Unfortunately, I dont think it has been.

Avalon 2007 featured an identical flying program for both Saturday and Sunday, which would rate in my book as one of the most thoughtless and condescending acts I have ever seen from a group trying to take my hard-earned in return for promised entertainment.

I think the organisers better make up their minds whether they are holding a trade show or an airshow, right after they look up the definitions of both in the dictionary.

Great Victorian airshows? Tyabb and Point Cook. A lovely day out for all concerned.

Ross,
I’m not across all active restorations in Victoria (& there are scribes who make it their business to do so) and I dont wish to get into a “my state’s restorations are bigger than your state’s…” etc as I’m not into parochial rivalry as per my earlier comment in any case.

However the following is a cross section of the serious/active flying restoration project’s in Victoria that I am aware of:
(those in brackets may not be active at this time)

Australian Gliding Museum
3x Flying Replica’s of the 1909 Taylor Glider (just finished)
multiple vintage gliders under restoration to fly

RAAFM
Flying replica of 1914 Bristol Boxkite underway, – target 2014

Australian National Aviation Museum
Flying replica of 1910 Duigan Biplane underway – target 2010
1930’s BA Swallow under active restoration to fly

Harvey McBain
1x Pussmoth
1x DH Dragon

John Pettit
1x Hornet Moth
(1 Hornet Moth – “2nd one”-stored?)

Maurice Rolph
DH Dragon Rapide – due to fly this year
(Proctor stored?)

P40F – Judy Pay
Storch – Judy Pay
P40N – Ian Whitney

6x Wirraway’s
Jones Consortium
Matt Griegg
Don Brown
Ian Witney
Michael Higgins
Jeff Eastman

Howard Jones
2x Avro Cadets

Precision Aerospace Wangaratta
1 Sea Fury
2+ Boston(s)
2+ Vultee Vengeance
Vought Kingfisher
2+ P-39(s)
2+ P-38(s)
2+ P-40(s)
2+ Ki-61(s)

Melbourne
2x Mustangs (confidential)
1x Mustang Bob Eastgate (repair)
1x Mustang – Graham Hosking

and there are obviously numerous active Tigermoth and Auster restorations underway, and other projects currently doing more “storing” than “restoring” at this particular time including 1x Drover and 2x Wackett Trainers etc.

Obviously not the centre of Australian restoration activity but some interesting activity still the same, and there are many more static only projects beyond these flying projects.

regards

Mark Pilkington

But you did hit on an opportunity, why not relocate the “festival of light” to Sydney, so much better located for everyone to attend, and the smaller strips of Camden or Albion Park etc would be perfect, especially if run as a fly-in not airshow, imagine the turnouts that central location could deliver in terms of warbirds and vintage aircraft from North, South and Central, and maybe west as well?

– Great Idea! a truely “National” Fly-in for Antiquers and warbirds, centrally located in the “National Centre” or “World City” of Sydney, now that would really be worth going to!

As for all those Victorian’s we send up to Qld, well thats just the advanced party and infiltration forces, by the time we have finished “AFL” will be the dominant footy code, Daylight saving will be the norm, and then we can start shifting some of those nice vintage aircraft back down south where they belong!

smiles

Mark Pilkington

Good idea Mark, however FoF is run by the “Queensland” Vintage Aeroplane Group. HARS no doubt do a pretty good job for the NSW’ers (AKA Cockroaches) and the AAAA does something (in Victoria I think), poor old SA and WA are just a bit of the beaten track for most people.

Just as we are getting 50,000 odd Victorians migrating to Queensland each year we are getting an influx of the vintage and warbird aeroplanes. The climate in SE Queensland is favourable to flying and to some that is a big plus.

Based on QVAG experience, you Victorians need to plan to stage a big event and for sure the you will get lots of rain, especially in the week leading up to the event. I suggest that about January would be the month for you – summer rain – no big bush fires!

Mark, on a more serious note, how much serious rebuilding of vintage aeroplanes goes on down your way – an open ended and not loaded question. I am interested to know of some of the rebuild projects going on down there. Maybe we should open up a new thread

“Vintage/Warbird Rebuild Projects In Australia” – it could be interesting, no statics, just to flying.

Oh and I just remembered, AFL didn’t the Lions relocate from Victoria to Queensland and I seem to remember they won the grand final for a few years on the trot – but we got sick of “Aerial Ping Pong” and went back to “Thugby” I think the Bronco’s won the grand final of that for a few years in a row as well, but hey we are getting sick of that as well. So I think it will be “Wog Ball – the world game” that is the game for the future, don’t think we have won that yet, but no doubt we will! – smiles

cheers

cheers

Dear Jason,
It seems you’ve muddled ‘trade show’ with ‘air show’. The trade show element is of interest over in modern mil – it’s not particularly relevant or of interest here. Formation suits emitting smoke and bull haven’t much attracted me, but then I don’t need to explain who the names are when I drop them, either.

This is a ‘historic’ forum. With the absence of the Queensland Air Museum display and RAAF Museum displays on the ground, there was nothing except some dried astronaut food of historic interest in the chalets. I did have a few interesting chats including with the owner / rebuilder of the Silver Centenary – IMHO, the only ‘new’ historic item there.

Regards,

No.

I’m intrigued by the statement “Most of what happens at Avalon happens on the first 4 days of the show” – perhaps, if suits swapping bull is what you are interested in. I go for the aircraft, and there’s a gradual increase in numbers to the weekend, generally, except this year was all a trough, rather than a peak!

It’s where the actual business of the show is conducted. The rest is simply aircraft taking off and landing.

Yes there are suits. The suits who make the things and the ones who buy the things and you’ll learn more at such events than discussing even on such a grand site as this… 😀

i have to agree that the avalon show is running on past events ,but it has a problem that has nothing to do with the venue,at the moment there are no big purchases being chased at the moment so why would the worlds manufactures bring the latest hardware all the way down here with very little prospects of getting a sale?
i’ve been wondering to myself though will 2011 be anydiffrent as it coinsides wiht the 90’th birthday of the raaf the 2001 show had a lot of interesting aircraft from several international airforces for the 80’th(the tornado’s from 617 sqn were awsome)so maybe the next one will have a little more for us enthusiasts?

But you would have to admit, Sydney is the world city for Australia…

No.

The “everythings better in Queensland” theme becomes tiresome after a while, and isnt neccessarily the case, or solution to all problems.

Yes.

(I don’t see the point in comparing a fly-in to an airshow, although I agree that Watts Bridge will offer more for the vintage enthusiast – but then that’s its job.)

As for Avalon, it’s very definitely an organisation cruising on past performance. The 2009 show was down in numbers of a/c on the 2007 show, which itself was down on numbers of a/c from the 2005. Additionally, as well as not-putting-together-much-of-a-show the organisers were hard hit with three days of poor weather over the show’s public weekend. (Of the four shows I’ve been to there, this was the first significant weather problem.) I’m intrigued by the statement “Most of what happens at Avalon happens on the first 4 days of the show” – perhaps, if suits swapping bull is what you are interested in. I go for the aircraft, and there’s a gradual increase in numbers to the weekend, generally, except this year was all a trough, rather than a peak!

1992 was a great show, fully deserving of the ‘world class airshow’ tag. Of the last three, they are not in the league of Paris, Farnborough or RIAT which is their real competition.

Regards,

But you would have to admit, Sydney is the world city for Australia and it does make sense having an International Event in the country’s world city, rather than just in one of the state capital cities.

I can’t think of an suitable runway in NSW, but I am sure there some, maybe one of the RAAF bases would be suitable.

As for the QVAG Festival of Flight – there is no doubt that it is the premier fly-in in Australia and that is not just a Queenslander’s opinion, it is a fact. Why don’t you come up and attend. I am sure you will enjoy yourself and appreciate the diffeerence between a fly-in and a air show and why to an enthusist (like you) the aviation fun factor is higher at a fly-in.

From my own point of view, its not the location of Avalon thats the problem (this year’s weather was not typical of previous years, & some early shows suffered from October show dates in notorious bad weather), the problem is the Public show events, they are becoming very predictable and repetitive, and the ground displays appear to be shrinking, entry costs are rising rapidly as value seems to drop, and participants seem to walk away in their droves, possibly for the “treatment” reasons you mentioned earlier. Relocating it elsewhere doesnt change those issues?
on the other side of the Harbour and then the Tourists can see all of Australia at one sitting, (but Sydney does have its down sides and I wouldnt want to live there).

A centrally located airshow that allowed most people from North /South and Central would be fantastic, but I dont think there are good options in Sydney itself?

Mascot – No! too busy?
Bankstown? – probably not? to obusy – too small
Camden – too small?
Richmond? yes, been done before – but it does get fogged in? perhaps access /security issues for RAAF, and may become the Avalon of Sydney in other ways in anycase?
Albion Park – limits on airshows apparantly
Temora, – yes – but a long long way out for the General Public

But the issue is unless the NSW government under-writes it, it wont happen, and the NSW government has more pressing financial issues, (other than wanting to waste $1B on “restoring” the Opera House which has to take the cake as this years best “early April Fools Day” joke?).

The issue is that relocating the “current” International Airshow to anywhere else, wouldnt have “me” travelling to see it, nor many others, (I have trouble justiflying crossing the proverbial road to see it) its content in the air and on the ground really isnt of great interest, this year I primarily went to see the Caribou and F111 in the air for the last time (from my point of view).

QVAG festival of light is a different issue all together, as its content is exactly my interest, is interesting enough to justify the four day drive, and is one I definately will get to, but probably not this year.

But you did hit on an opportunity, why not relocate the “festival of light” to Sydney, so much better located for everyone to attend, and the smaller strips of Camden or Albion Park etc would be perfect, especially if run as a fly-in not airshow, imagine the turnouts that central location could deliver in terms of warbirds and vintage aircraft from North, South and Central, and maybe west as well?

– Great Idea! a truely “National” Fly-in for Antiquers and warbirds, centrally located in the “National Centre” or “World City” of Sydney, now that would really be worth going to!

As for all those Victorian’s we send up to Qld, well thats just the advanced party and infiltration forces, by the time we have finished “AFL” will be the dominant footy code, Daylight saving will be the norm, and then we can start shifting some of those nice vintage aircraft back down south where they belong!

smiles

Mark Pilkington