Ice swimming Lysander

Now i know what that beam lurking in the hangers is. Thank you.

OK, first I would like apologize all for the mistake I made. I mix up two different accident reports. Few months before this one LY-120 lost it’s bomb wing while taxing.

Hi Martti,
No worries, we all make mistakes. At least we didn’t create another myth! I’d guess that he went through the ice, the edge of which folded the ‘U’ beam under, as Adrian’s spotted. The Lysander’s shock-absorbers were the Dowty patent hub type (like on the Gladiator) and certainly weren’t long travel – I wouldn’t be surprised that it could crack hard ice from a sudden shock of landing, as it’s not a soft undercarriage set-up.

The ‘U’ was indeed very tough, but a French test pilot managed to bust the prototype’s beam prewar, and there’s some remarkable stories of the rigidity of the gear being a bit too much, especially for real ‘rough field’ Special Duties landings.

The metal for the beam wasn’t available to Canada, so the Canadian Lysanders were built with a composite beam structure.

A Canadian beam at Old Warden. You can see the attachments to the fuselage frame and the wing struts. Pilot’s seet seems a little low. 😀

The gear attached on the Canadian Warplane Heritage machine.

OK, first I would like apologize all for the mistake I made. I mix up two different accident reports. Few months before this one LY-120 lost it’s bomb wing while taxing.

This accident happened because the pilot didn’t follow the weather reports and had to land on the ice because of the weather. The thickness of ice was 8 inches and in normal conditions it would have been enough. But because the pilot didn’t knew how to make such gently landing the ice didn’t hold.

Martti

Curiouser and curiouser!

In line with JFK’s “tough bird” pics, it does show where the weak point of the Lysander’s undercarriage was. The weak bit was the Lysander! If you look, I am fairly sure that the whole V-shaped beam that made up the undercarriage legs is in one piece, but the attachments to the fuselage have folded.

Having seen OW’s in pieces, it’s a piece of metal that would not disgrace a railway engine!

Adrian

(did the Finns do this, Marrti?)

According to the papers I have right now the plane was on transfer flight from place A to B crash site being about halfway. This is right after the Winter War so ordinary airfields could have been used.

And yes, I’d be interested, Martti, but don’t make it a priority, just for me.

No problem. I’ll go there right tomorrow 9am when the archive opens so you can read the verdict before afternoon tea 😀 (seriously, it is only few kilometers from here and this starts to puzzle me too!).

Martti

Lysanders were tough. From my Lysander book:

Photo: The National Archives.

Regarding the second prototype:

Trim problems were not the only serious problem with the type. On May 20th 1937, while flying the second prototype and undertaking diving tests, the pilot, Squadron Leader R W Collings, suddenly heard a loud report. The stick was snatched from his hand and the aircraft inverted. Collings could not move the control column and had lost the top of his canopy. According to the official report; “He was having difficulty in leaving the cockpit when the aircraft steadied down after a second loud report. He then decided to right the aircraft, trimmed out of the dive, half rolled and brought it back to the aerodrome.”

What had gone wrong? “60 – 90% of the top surface of the starboard wing had gone. The trailing edge portions of the ribs aft of the rear spar had collapsed. The port wing fabric top surface was wrinkled and loose and on cutting away the fabric it was found that a similar failure of the ribs had commenced.” The cause was the use of a trial lightweight fabric instead of the normal Irish linen. The phlegmatic Squadron Leader R W Collings earned an Air Force Cross for his skill and bravery. Although the return to the conventional Irish linen and fixing solved the problem, another aircraft , as we shall see, later lost its wing fabric in Royal Navy use.

Photo: Westland Archives.

Credible theory, Adrian, thanks. And yes, I’d be interested, Martti, but don’t make it a priority, just for me. I’ve not recovered from the first edition of the Lizzie book, yet.

Given the fact that it is largely in one lump, I’d guess maybe it was being operated from the lake (did the Finns do this, Marrti?), and the stub wing folded on approach, causing a stall, or it stalled at a faster speed than expected following the failure of the stub wing in flight.

Looks to me like a heavy landing rather than a catastrophic failure. Would be interesting to see what the official papers say!

Adrian

I’m wondering if we have got the full story here…

Thanks!

Probably not. Being lazy, I didn’t browse through all papers concerning the accident. I’m going to Military Archives of Finland anyway again in few weeks so I could copy all the papers this time and give the verdict.

Martti

Interesting pics, Martti, that water looks cold!

During the flight the bomb wing started to vibrate due of material or design flaw. The bomb wing broke and the aeroplane stalled.

I can’t see how the stub-wing could bring down a Lysander unless it was being flown just above the stall. There’s records of them being flown with one on and one off, and even rotated to 90 degrees full drag in the slipstream, they can’t have been more draggy than one with a filled set of stores racks. Certainly it would cause a good deal of differential drag, perhaps suddenly, but at a bit of height and speed, the remaining mount would have broken or twisted due to the slipstream before the out of trim had taken full effect – so it flopped I’d have thought. I’m wondering if we have got the full story here…

Regards –

A couple more photos. LY-120 (RAF code is ?) crash landed near village of Haukivuori on 12th December 1940. Pilot second lieutenant K. Jaakkola and passenger mechanic V. Lehtonen were only slightly injured. During the flight the bomb wing started to vibrate due of material or design flaw. The bomb wing broke and the aeroplane stalled.

Martti

Other people have tadpoles in their ponds…

Adrian