ID ammunition.

Maybe, even then it is a bit of a stretch…

…how many (lost) Lancasters with 50cal Rose tail-turrets…..plus 1941 dated 303 ammunition?

I realise that it is perfectly possible for an aircraft shot-down in 1944 /1945 to be carrying 1941 (or earlier) ammunition but how likely is it? Maybe not so unlikely; Bomber Command aircraft probably didn’t fire much of the ammunition that they carried!

Quite possible for 1941 dated ammo to be carried on a late war aircraft. I own a couple of .303 Lee Enfield service rifles. A good few years ago now, around 2003, I acquired some surplus Mk7 ball ammo of mixed dates. Quite a few of those were dated 1941/42. So clearly they survived the war without being used. They still went bang!

As far as I am aware, Lockheed Vega Ventura and North American Mitchell flown by the RAF also carried both .303 and .50 cal armament and would fit the time period of the shell cases that have been identified.

Seems odd that it is the same location as a documented crash though.

Or a Halifax with a 50cal single (H2S) belly-mounted gun?

I can’t think of many 303 / 50cal options (carrying 1941 dated 303 ammunition)…

…Spitfires?

Maybe, even then it is a bit of a stretch…

…how many (lost) Lancasters with 50cal Rose tail-turrets…..plus 1941 dated 303 ammunition?

I realise that it is perfectly possible for an aircraft shot-down in 1944 /1945 to be carrying 1941 (or earlier) ammunition but how likely is it? Maybe not so unlikely; Bomber Command aircraft probably didn’t fire much of the ammunition that they carried!

So now we’re on to a British aircraft, late war Lancaster?

In this case it is the Kynoch factory at Standish (I think).

I wonder if there’s a clue in the K2 marking. K2 was a cartridge maufacturer’s brand name, not sure who it belonged to but their shot cartridges were reasonably common in the mid – late 50’s.

Hi,
K2 1941 W and on a second one K2 1941 VII.

That is RAF .303 ammunition, one ball, one AP.

Hi,

Today I had a closer look at the rounds and measured them my self. The 20mm was wrong, it is 13mm = .50. The small rounds are to much corroded to be measured good, but in the casing there is this inscription: K2 1941 W and on a second one K2 1941 VII.

Best regards,

Mathieu.

Sounds far more likely than a B-17. I suppose it’s possible both crashed in the same place. A couple of cases of ‘mind that -too late- hedge’?

I’d say you had located the crash-site of a German aircraft in that case!

Hi,

The rounds are damaged/bent and from each type there are about 4 pieces, next week I’ll see my friend again and take some photos and measurements.

Regards,

Mathieu.

If the rounds are complete and unfired then the next question is: are they damaged?

If the complete rounds are badly bent or crushed then this would (probably) indicate that they were from a crashed aircraft. If the rounds are not seriously damaged (except by normal corrosion) then it is (very) possible that they arrived at the site by a different method; at least a different method from a B-17 plummeting to Earth following a mid-air collision at +20,000 feet! (Probably!)

I can understand perhaps how a 7.92mm round may arrive at the crash-site. This round was standard German rifle ammunition and could easily have been dropped by almost any member of the German armed forces; the crash-site(s) would certainly be investigated to remove the bodies of the crew, weapons and ammunition (even if damaged), possible secret equipment or documents for investigation by military intelligence and, finally, the aircraft wreckage for scrap metal recovery. Local troops would also probably have visited the site, unofficially, to collect souvenirs!

All this activity could easily explain the presence of a single (or a few?) 7.92mm round(s).

However, it is difficult to explain the presence of a 20mm cannon round in this way!

If there were many rounds it is a far less likely explanation; and the crash-site of an unknown (German) aircraft much more likely. Also if German rounds are being found but American rounds (50cal) are not being found it would also seem to indicate this.

So, how many rounds are there…..and are the rounds damaged?

Some photographs would also be most useful.

Hi,

Some information about the 2 B17’s: http://verliesregister.studiegroepluchtoorlog.nl/zoek-t-nummer.php?SGLO=T3228 and http://verliesregister.studiegroepluchtoorlog.nl/zoek-t-nummer.php?SGLO=T3230

If the 20mm and 7.9(mm) calibres come from the headstamps of cartridge cases then these cannot have come from a B-17 Bomber as no B-17 ever carried weapons of these calibres…

…unless anybody knows differently!

Was it two B-17 bombers that collided…..or a B-17 that collided with a German aircraft?

Hi,

Again thanks for the input. To take some confusion away, my friend found complete bullets with casing. They never have been fired. He found the in vicinity were to B17 collided in 1943.

Regards,

Mathieu.

I think it is almost inconceivable that projectiles fired at, say, a B-17, would remain in the B-17 or be found at the crash site (as I think is the suggestion of some of the posts above).

depends on where in the structure they came to rest, In the right place (wrong place if you happen to be B-17 crew) it could well remain within the wreckage on impact.

I think it is almost inconceivable that projectiles fired at, say, a B-17, would remain in the B-17 or be found at the crash site (as I think is the suggestion of some of the posts above).

I have seen 50 cal rounds lodged in armour plate, but I tend to agree, especially explosive cannon ammunition.

I think it is almost inconceivable that projectiles fired at, say, a B-17, would remain in the B-17 or be found at the crash site (as I think is the suggestion of some of the posts above).