Identifying Bomber Command losses

Gnome.

Just to let you know that I have received a PM from a gentleman who is related to a member of Sgt. Workman’s crew who has a lot of information he would like to share with you. He has PM’d you but don’t know whether you’ll receive it.

Regards,

kev35

Crash Location

Here is a summary of what I know regarding the loss of Lancaster EE147, PG-P of 619 squadron during the Peenemünde raid of 17/18 August 1943.

My Uncle, F/sgt L F English RNZAF (rear gunner) and his fellow crew (F/O O’Leary RCAF pilot) lost their lives when their aircraft was shot down in the immediate vicinity of Peenemünde that night.

As I’m sure many of you know, Martin Middlebrook wrote a well received book about this raid and in it he alleges that this aircraft was 29th down, about 30 kms south of the target near Anklam. Middlebrook is unable to identify what combat resulted in the loss of EE-147.

My conjecture is that this is because he has the wrong location.

We (family) have a copy of an MRES report that identifies another location for the crash. Casualty Enquiry No. G 61, 20 Sept 1945, states inter alia: “According to German documents now in our possession the aircraft crashed 2 kms. north of ZECHERIN and 200 metres from PEENEMÜNDE on the night of 17th/18th August, 1943.” BTW I don’t have copies or even references for those original German documents, they may be KE reports.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo…63&postcount=9

January 2010 . If you search Google Maps for “Zecherin Germany” you will in the first instance be taken to a Zecherin near Anklam. If you the proceed/click North approximately 20kms, to the general area of Peenemunde, and then zoom in, a second Zecherin will reveal itself once the zoom is sufficient. It is a few kilometres South of Peenemunde.

So … one Zecherin is near Anklam (ie. where Middlebrook suggests) but in no way coincides with the very specific location given by the MRES. The other Zecherin however, is not far south of Peenemunde. Although “2km north of Zecherin” and “200 metres from Peenemunde” does not make sense if it refers to the town of Peenemunde, which is clearly more than 2km north of the more northerly Zecherin … if it meant 200m from the banks of the river, interpreting Peenemunde as “the mouth of the river Peene”, rather than the town, it makes a lot of sense.

That would put the location of the crash SSW of Karlshagen, itself a little south of the (scientist’s) housing estate and the workers camp, both a handful of kilometres south of the rocket facilities, and very much part of the target area. This argues that EE-147 was shot down in the immediate vicinity of the target, either an interception by a night-fighter right over the target (and this did happen) or the aircraft may have been hit by flak over the target and then crashed not long after. Bear in mind the attack was low level, between 5000 and 8000 feet (not metres).

When? Well we know that 619 squadron, a member of 5 Group, bombed in the last wave of the attack, in part utilising the time-and-distance bombing method. And Middlebrook says the third wave bombed between 00:43am to 00:55am “British Time” I understand “local” time was one hour later.

I’ve have a download of Tony Woods’ ReichWest claims and there are 17 claims between 1:40am and 2:00am at or near Peenemunde (and more either side of that time-slot). Is there any practical way to weed through them all?

One thing I am doing ~ I have been to the library this morning and borrowed Middlebrook’s book. He discusses the air battle over the target and includes some personal recollections of Luftwaffe pilots with comments like “the aircraft fell into the sea” and so on. This will rule some out.

And of course, if we are able to narrow the timeslot for EE-147’s eta at the target, we could perhaps narrow the field. We have the take-off time (21:55 UK time) can we compare that with other aircraft over the target area. Bit of a long shot I know.

Take off 21:55 UK time

Thanks Kev

A person on 12 O’clock high put me onto the fact that Lost Bombers has a takeoff time for EE-147 “Airborne 2155 17Aug43 from Woodhall Spa”.

And I have very good reason to believe that they were shot down more-or-less over the target (not as Martin Middlebrook’s book alleges, some 30 kms away). I will post that argument in a moment.

There are a large number of claims over the target around the time of the third wave (local time was one hour on, so we’re talking around 1:45-2:00am or 12:45 to 1:00 UK time). In this interval alone there’s around 20 luftwaffe claims at Peenemunde!

If we could narrow the probable ETA over the target, we can narrow the range of claims. It wasn’t a difficult night to navigate so if we can reference other aircraft and their times, whether it be out of Woodhall Spa or elsewhere, maybe we could figure it out? I don’t know.

Many thanks, cheers Don

Hi, Don.

OK. I presume we are looking for Flight Sergeant Lloyd English RNZAF so here’s what BCL offers…..

619 Squadron Lancaster III EE147 PG-P Op Peenemunde.

T/O 2155 Woodhall Spa. Crashed in the vicinity of Anklam – Lassan, Germany. All now lie in Poland at Poznan old Garrison Cemetery.

P/O O A O’Leary RCAF
Sgt T Underdown
F/S R Crossley
Sgt J T Hubbard
Sgt J H Shaw
Sgt D G Cox
F/S L F English RNZAF

Bomber Command lost 43 aircraft (out of 600 despatched) on this particular operation, including two from 619 Squadron.

You asked about times on target. BCL mentions DK 227 a Halifax of 427 Squadron which took off from Leeming at 2120, was attacked by a nightfighter on the way home and landed 0435 at Mildenhall. Perhaps that may help produce a time frame? Luftwaffe Night Fighter Claims by Foreman, Matthews and Parry records a number of claims in the vicinity of Peenemunde between 0145 and 0220 but I can never work out how German time relates to British time. My head just won’t work that way but perhaps some of the earlier posts in this thread might prove helpful.

Bomber Command War Diaries records that this was the first raid to make use of a ‘Master Bomber’ to co-ordinate the attack in the target area. Also believed to be the first use by the German Night Fighter arm of ‘Schrage Musik.’

As always, hope this proves useful.

Regards,

kev35

17/18 August 1943 ~ Peenemunde

BUMP ~ sorry to intrude again folks, but I wonder if we can solve the puzzle for the third of our likely lads?

Maybe KEV with that wonderful “Bomber Command losses for 1943 by Chorley” or someone else, can we get some accurate timing around Lancaster EE-147, PG-P of 619 squadron. This is Lloyd’s aircraft (see above photo of the three lads).

I’d like to know when they were up, and if at all possible, arguably by calculation with reference to expected times or other aircraft from 619, a “window” for when they would have been expected over the target.

Many thanks once again, Don

He didn’t and I see what’s happened … have I created this confusion? In my post #21 above I referenced Schellwat’s first claim (near Hactal) not noticing he claimed two that night. Kev35 in his post #14 is talking abouit the second claim near Peer … 19 minutes later. The 5276 appearing both times is the (nightfighter) grid location. See Mhuxt post #22 about how to interpret the data.

German Claims that Night

Source: Tony Woods Luftwaffe Claims Lists..

Night: 29-30. May 1943
R.A.F. Bomber Command: WUPPERTAL
30.05.43 Oblt. Ludwig Meister 1./NJG 4 Stirling 3 km. S.W. Castelnau: 3.100 m. 02.07 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.20
30.05.43 Oblt. Rudolf Altendorf 2./NJG 4 Wellington 8 km. südl. Namur: 3.400 m. 02.20 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.31
30.05.43 Ltn. Rolf Bussmann 1./NJG 1 Halifax 3157: 3.700 m. 02.50 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.61
30.05.43 Oblt. Rudolf Altendorf 2./NJG 4 Halifax Ressaix: 4.300 m. 02.57 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.32
30.05.43 Ltn. Schmidt 2./NJG 1 Halifax 4265: 5.200 m. 00.07 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.32
30.05.43 Ltn. Beier 3./NJG 1 Halifax 5288: 5.000 m. 00.24 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.161
30.05.43 Oblt. Wilhelm Telge Stab II./NJG 1 Halifax 52/7/5: 5.700 m. Fld.Nr. 200 00.28 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.76
30.05.43 Fw. Oloff 2./NJG 1 Wellington 4218: 2.000 m. 00.29 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.133
30.05.43 Oblt. Manfred Meurer 3./NJG 1 Halifax 6271: 6.200 m. 00.33 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.162
30.05.43 Maj. Walter Ehle Stab II./NJG 1 Halifax 6132: 5.600 m. 00.37 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.77
30.05.43 Oblt. Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin 6./NJG 1 Wellington 5125: 5.400 m. 00.43 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.79
30.05.43 Ltn. Heinz Schnaufer Stab II./NJG 1 Stirling 6134: 3.500 m. 00.48 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.78
30.05.43 Oblt. Manfred Meurer 3./NJG 1 Wellington 6207: 5.400 m. 00.50 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.163
30.05.43 Maj. Walter Ehle Stab II./NJG 1 Halifax 6113: 4.200 m. 01.05 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.79
30.05.43 Oblt. Manfred Meurer 3./NJG 1 Stirling 5283: 2.500 m. 01.09 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.164
30.05.43 Hptm. Hoffmann 5./NJG 1 Halifax 6134: 4.500 m. 01.40 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.40
30.05.43 Ltn. Heinz Schnaufer Stab II./NJG 1 Halifax 5114: 6.500 m. 01.43 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.80
30.05.43 Oblt. Manfred Meurer 3./NJG 1 Lancaster 6 km. S.E. Venray: 4.300 m. 01.44 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.165
30.05.43 Ofw. Fritz Schellwat 5./NJG 1 Lancaster 5276: 2 km. N.E. Hachtal: 4.280 m. 02.18 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.41
30.05.43 Ltn. Heinz Schnaufer Stab II./NJG 1 Stirling ½ km. E. Fl.Pl. Diest-Schaffen: 4.500 m. 02.22 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.81
30.05.43 Ltn. Johannes Hager 4./NJG 1 Stirling 6117 2 km. N.E. Braud: 4.400 m. 02.28 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.22
30.05.43 Ofw. Fritz Schellwat 5./NJG 1 Lancaster 5276 500 m. südl. Peer: 5.100 m. 02.37 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.42
Supplemental Claims from Sources:
30.05.43 Oblt. Heinz Wurm Jagdkdo West Liberator 15 West/9076 20.54 Reference: AA MSS f. 4
30.05.43 Ofw. Vincenz Giessuebel 14./KG 40 Liberator 120 km. N.W. Brest – Reference: CG MSS f. 209

Why did Ofw. Fritz Schellwat shoot down the same Lancaster at two different locations? I thought the Luftwaffe were very through in confirming a kill.

Photograph

Here we have the three likely lads … from L to R … Les, Eric and Lloyd

No worries.

Many thanks for your help mhuxt … much appreciated

44 Squadron lost a second aircraft that night, Lancaster III EE123 KM-K, six of the crew were killed and the surviving crew member was captured.

In fact that second aircraft was Pete Holt (age 19) and his crew, as referred to in Lloyd’s diary entries [post 12 above].

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2645655

Hi Again:

The 5276 is a geographical locator code – see the LUMA link I referred to above.

The film number is a BA-MA (Bundesarchiv-Militaerarchiv) reference number – the claims lists were transcribed by Tony Woods from 35 mm microfilms of handwritten list by “members of the Personnel Department under the Chief of Training and Discipline within the realms of the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe.”

The “Anerk: Nr.41” is a “confirmation certificate number”, apparently not linked to the individual pilot.

The basic entry is:

Date Rank Pilot Name Unit Type of Allied Aircraft Claimed Grid Location of Claim (Physical Location, not given in all cases) Altitude of Attack Time of Attack Film Reference Confirmation Certificate Number

Source: Tony Woods Luftwaffe Claims Lists..

30.05.43 Ofw. Fritz Schellwat 5./NJG 1 Lancaster 5276: 2 km. N.E. Hachtal: 4.280 m. 02.18 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.41

Accepting Kev’s proposal that Schellwat is “most likely” for now … can someone please explain to me all the information in this claim data? Some bits are obvious, others not … eg:
5276 … ???
Film … is/was there gun camera film … or is it not in English [ie. film does not equal film]?

If someone can explain the whole data string that would be much appreciated.

Many thanks again, cheers D

Hi Again:

Re: the loss of Les Workman and ED584:

There’s a claim for Raalte as follows (again, source is Tony Woods):

13.06.43 Oblt. August Geiger 7./NJG 1 Lancaster GN-6.4: 4.300 m. [Raalte] 02.37

The GN grid reference works very well on the map from the JG 26 site (last link I posted above).

My favourite map site (especially useful for finding small places, seeing relative position of two or more places) is:

http://www.de.map24.com/

You may have to fiddle with the settings – I’ve got it set up for Germany. Much easier to enter two locations and click on “Route”.

Classic post re: time zones during the war:

Since 1916, Great Britain has used GMT in the winter and GMT+1 (British Summer Time) in the summer.

From 1941 until 1945, Double British Summer Time was introduced (GMT +2) to replace the normal Summer Time.

BST (GMT +1) was used between the following dates:

25/2/1940 to 7/10/1940

DBST (GMT + 2) was used between the following dates:

4/5/1941 to 10/8/1941
5/4/1942 to 9/8/1942
4/5/1943 to 15/8/1943
2/4/1944 to 17/9/1944
2/4/1945 to 15/7/1945

Source: Rob de Bruin, Bulletin Airwar 1939-45 Journal Number 99

Cheers

Rod

7) To make things more clear some examples:

Date Time in Holland/Germany Time in England.

30-05-1940 12.28 11.28
22-06-1941 06.05 06.05
03-11-1942 14.18 14.18
01-04-1943 23.25 22.25
01-05-1943 20.08 20.08
06-06-1944 05.30 05.30
05-05-1945 08.00 09.00

8) The change of time was done in the early Sunday morning hours at 2.00 O’clock.

9) Here follows a list of dates when the German time was equal to British time.

a. 1941 May 4th till August 10th.
b. 1942 April 5th till August 9th and November 2nd till December 31.
c. 1943 January 1st till March 29th and April 4th till August 15th and from
October 4th till December 31st.
d. 1944 January 1st till April 2nd and April 4th till September 17th and October 2nd
till December 31st.
e. 1945 January 1st till April 2nd.

This is a translation of the essence of an article published in Bulletin Airwar 1939-1945
Nr.99. With many thanks to Mr. Robert de Bruin, Great Bookham, England.
The translation has been made by Jaap Woortman.”

There’s an excellent grid explanation system and converter (see the “LUMA” links- works for 1943 and earlier) links here:

http://www.gyges.dk/reporting_grids.htm

There is also an excellent map of the (slightly later) Luftwaffe grid system here:

http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/jg26/gradnetz.htm

Don.

In BCL, the lists do go in order so they do help locate the person’s position within the crew. I quote…..

“…..All heavy bomber crews may be assumed to be shown as pilot, flight engineer, navigator, air bomber, wireless operator and two air gunners…… Wellington crews may be read as pilot, navigator, air bomber, wireless operator and air gunner.”

Where an extra crew member is listed it is usually indicative of a second pilot, although it may also signify a second navigator or electronics operator in aircraft of the special duties Squadrons.

regards,

kev35

Thanks Kev

Now here’s an interesting thing, both Lloyd and Les were air (tail) gunners. Eric was pilot. Do those lists of crew always follow the same order? Effectively a straight line through the aircraft from pilot at the front through to gunner in the tail. If so we can always work out each member’s crew position.

cheers D

Gnome.

From BCL again…..

Lancaster III ED584 EA-U Op. Bochum.

T/O 2237 Fiskerton. Crashed near Marienheem (Overijssel), a hamlet near Raalte, Holland, where five of the crew are buried in the town’s General Cemetery. Sgt.’s Hutchinson and Pearson are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.

Sgt. J Hutchinson.
Sgt. C W Dudley.
Sgt. C S Olson.
Sgt. E W H Johnson.
Sgt. B R Cripps.
Sgt. E H Pearson.
Sgt. L E Workman RNZAF.

Regards,

kev35

Rock on … you guys are amazing. I share your obsession Kev.

Obsession again.

It seems most likely that Sgt. Erickson’s aircraft was attacked and brought down by OberFeldwebel Fritz Schellwat who claimed a Lancaster at 02.37 in the location of Peer in Belgium. Schellwat was flying with 5/NJG1 at the time. I believe they were still equipped with the Bf110. Schellwat appears to have survived the war with claims for 19 allied aircraft of which 17 were confirmed.

Looking through BCL the breakdown of losses was as follows….

10 Squadron. One Halifax II. All seven crew killed.

12 Squadron. One Lancaster III. Six Killed, One pow.

35 Squadron. Four Halifax II’s. Fifteen killed, fourteen pow.

44 Squadron. One Lancaster I, one Lancaster III. Ten killed, four pow.

75 Squadron. One Stirling I, three Stirling III’s. Twenty two killed, six pow.

90 Squadron. Two Stirling I’s. Eleven killed, two pow, one injured.

102 Squadron. One Halifax II. Seven killed.

106 Squadron. One Lancaster I. Seven killed.

115 Squadron. Two Lancaster II’s. Eight killed.

149 Squadron. One Stirling III. Seven killed.

158 Squadron. Two Halifax II’s. Twelve killed, two pow.

218 Squadron. Two Stirling III’s. Fourteen killed.

419 Squadron. Two Halifax II’s. Eleven killed, three pow.

428 Squadron. Two Wellington X’s. Five killed, six pow.

429 Squadron. One Wellington X. Five killed.

431 Squadron. One Wellington X. Five killed.
432 Squadron. Two Wellington X’s. Four killed, three pow, four injured.

460 Squadron. Two Lancaster III’s. Seven killed.

466 Squadron. Three Wellington X’s. Six killed, nine pow.

In total, one hundred and sixty six were killed, fifty taken prisoner and five injured. These included men of the RAF, RAAF, RCAF and RNZAF. Few of us can ever know the horrors of aerial warfare, but statistics such as these certainly have a sobering effect on those of us who can only look on from sixty years distance.

Regards,

kev35