IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

RE: there you go again…

Phantom you have very good relations with most of Israel’s bordering countries … Egypt, Saudi Arabia (ok, not bordering), Jordan. It’s only Syria and Lebanon who are on the “axis”-list.

RE: there you go again…

Come on guys……Americans & Israeli’s shouldn’t be fighting. Our countries have more in common and share similar points of view on many varied subjects…not to mention we share the same enemies. I’m glad our two countries have a good relationship. I’d much rather have a good relationship with Israel than any of its bordering neighbors.

RE: there you go again…

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-07-02 AT 02:35 AM (GMT)]that’s not what i’m suggesting, but that’s what i’ve heard in their own language. Like i say, the more language you learn, the more cultures you learn, the more you understand them. I didn’t simply just say A hates B, but simply because i’ve heard/read significant sentiments of A against B in A’s own language and the lack of awareness that someone who don’t look like A but actually understands their language bring you up to speed with A’s reality. I hope you understand what i’m talking about. As to “patronizing”, i don’t think i meant that, and i’m truly sorry if I did (but i really don’t think i did). I’m merely stating facts, and now in my opinion you are getting rather emotional. If you think more of what i’m saying, it’s there. I’m not saying Israelis should kiss American asses, nowhere am i suggesting that. No, i’m saying that sometimes a lot of these sentiments of we don’t need anybody is very very unwise. For example, your attitude of getting weapons from the US suggests that the US is controlling your “soverignty”, but in our point of view, those are OUR tax payers dollars. I’m sure we have a point too. You can say the hell with it, and go ahead stop supporting us, but if you think clearly you would conclude that without the US, Israel 100% will not exist. I can safely say most people on this planet would agree to that. That’s a fact and nowhere did i use that fact to patronize and say something like “you better listen to us”. No, i mere am suggesting that there are no evidence what-so-ever based on good faith that Israel’s major decisions actually consider other people. No, even the retraction of the AEWs to China was used by Israel for more guarantees of money and yet we have to face with accusations of infringing on your sovereignty. If that’s true, why would you even get compensations. And, if you care, why would you even consider selling a serious force multiplier to China in the first place, a nation that in it’s official defence white paper threatens a land of 20mil that isn’t very different from Israel’s situation. The cold fact after serious deductions are, you simply don’t care. You can say the same thing about certain situations with the US, that’s very valid and actually happens quite often, I’ll agree to that. But, to simply say “that’s too bad” is clearly not the American attitude to Israel.

As to about Egypt, nowhere did i suggest that US didn’t help Israel before the peace treaty. “there you go again”, you misquoted again, I said it wasn’t after that that Israel got an official guarentee from the US of such. This “officialness” is very important in the light of international credibility. Before that, each administrations can tell you something, but they can easily weasle their way out of it. For example, China constantly refers to the Communique made by previous Administrations, but understand that such is not the law and violating them only violates the administration that pledged it. But, on the other hands, you having binding documents of a treaty, or an “ACT” passed by Congress, you go American credibility on the line.

very nice talking to you Skythe, i hope you don’t take it the wrong way. I learned a lot on this forum on other cultures (people, nationalities, whatever, you get the point “differences”), but mostly by the tones and reactions of people. It tells you a lot on what’s on their mind than really the words they type.

RE: there you go again…

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-07-02 AT 07:58 PM (GMT)]Since you seem intent on teaching me history, Vortex, let me bring you up to date on certain facts: Despite your claims, US aid to Israel did not begin following the Israeli-Egyptian peace accords but well before. The US stance on the matters at hand was pretty much formulated in the late 1960s. What the peace accords saw was the commencement of US aid to Egypt.

“real friends” in international politics is a romatic notion that does not exist. Everything is about interests. Furthermore, Israel may not have “real friends”, but to compare Europe to Russia, to the Far East, to the Arab world is oversimplification of a whopping magnitude. You know, I often hear critisicm of Israel’s apparent “everyone’s against us” attitude, of its reluctance to accept any criticism on the ground that it is probably hatred. You’re the first one to actually claim it’s true! If you think there’s support in Europe or the US (with assistance or without) for the elimination of Israel, then you’re sadly mistaken.

But let’s be frank, Vortex, what you obviously expect is our complete surrender to American interests, you expect us to grovel at your feet at unending gratitude for your benevolant charity.
Forget it, we get your support because its fits your interest, and aid will be cut when it ceases to fit any such interest. It’s this aid that ensure that Israeli airlines only fly Boeing, that every export deal, whether with American components or not, has to be approved in Washington, or that the US can go and offer Taiwan the blueprints to Israeli submarines without consulting our government first. You think that Israel cannot survive without US aid? Possibly, I don’t know. But you know what? If American aid means American domination, then screw us, I really, really, from the bottom of my heart, do not care. We are deeply indebted to the US for its aid over the years, but don’t mistake gratitude with servitude. You can patronize me with your talk of “young Isreali self-illusion” and my “too bad” atitude but don’t be surprised to turn around and see the Europeans bashing you for your arrogance. Will Israel exist forever? probably not, but nor will the US – don’t expect me to worship it as if it’s some god bestowing us with its goodwill.

And oh, BTW, I’d be fascinated to hear why it is that you think Asian countries think poorly of Jews, not just Israel. Please be so kind as to explain what action on the part of the Jews made that somehow justifiable. That is what you’ve suggested, isn’t it?

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: there you go again…

As to the aid Skythe, i was exactly refering to after the promise was made. Your constant reference to early 70s didn’t acknowledge that there was no official US stance at the time. It is very different after the Isreali-Egyption peace, it’s because the US gave Israel our commitments.
You seems to think the only aid US give to Israel is just weapons. Mind you that if the US didn’t support Israel, you should realize that not only are the Europeans against you, the Russians aren’t that friendly to your versus to the Arabs, and the world don’t really like you. Racism you can call, but mind you that even Asian nations that aren’t Muslim talks negatively quite often about JEWS, let alone Israel. Those are sad racist facts from the world, but like all things evil you guys like to say it’s not a simple black and white. People don’t just hate for no reason and sometimes morally justifiable, but the only problem is their actions went way too extreme (Hitler) that it absolutely wipes out all other reasons however legitimate. So, the bottom line is not weapons but you got no real friends, especially powerful ones like the US. This is a consistent problem with young Isreali self-illusion, let me break it down to you simply, without the US there will be no Isreal. Don’t mention your combat successes, because without supplies you can only fight with stick and stones and a few guns like the Palestinians. It’s true even today, don’t even mention before. The Arabs who hated Israel realize this, and this is why anti-US went hand in hand everytime Israel does something. As to other cases of US’s own fault relating to Arab policies, that’s very true. Definately. But just because you’re on fire doesn’t mean pouring more fuel on it won’t make it worse. That’s exactly what i mean, Israel don’t seems to care. And like you say, “that’s too bad”.

RE: there you go again…

> If this impartiallity becomes thinking twice everytime we back
> Israel, he’ll definately rethink his “too bad” attitude.

‘Too bad’ was not meant to suggest impartiality, it was meant to suggest acceptance. As I said, I value US friendship and aid, but sovereignty goes both ways. If the price of ours is cessation of US aid, then so be it. It would be painful, I do not wish to see it happen, but we are entitled to our own decisions, as Americans are to theirs.

> These things are in general, so no need to go into details, what’s
> important is that if that’s true shouldn’t Israel be more than
> willing to show continuous initiatives to hear out what such an
> offer is?

But that’s the whole point. Israel never officially accepted nor rejected the offer for the mere reason that it was never presented to Israel. It was presented to the various Arab governments, to Europe and the US, but to this point the Saudis have rejected every single offer of actually meeting with representatives of the Israeli government.

> didn’t you just say the more serious threat is the outside enemy?

Indeed, but you were talking about military threats, about why we need American weaponry. But there are other threats as well, and the existence of one does not mean we can ignore another. If you change your mind about going into details, we can.

> get your timeline correct, that promise was after the “delay”
> you’ve mentioned

Don’t teach me history, I know more than enough. I was talking about the emergency aid during the Yom Kippur war. You suggested the USA always comes to Israel’s rescue as quickly as possible. I showed you this was not necessarily correct. This has nothing to do with past and present military aid.

> For this example, you should send in Commandos just to take him out
> even if it’s going to cost dozens of soldiers life just because the
> possibility of a collatoral damage is way too high.

That’s a very noble stance, but one which practically no nation on earth exercises, not even the USA. Events in Afghanistan have shown that. Bin Laden’s deputy was killed by an LGB that also killed a hundred others. Besides, when possible Israel indeed tries to capture such men, but in the middle of hostile city, such an operation would have probably cost more Israeli AND Palestinian lives, as well probably ended in failure, the man fleeing long before they’d arrived. You brought up Mogadishu. An excellent example, had US forces known what they were going to be up against, things would have been done very differently.

> now you have a situation where dozens of new misguided Palestinian
> teens will more than willing to become suicide bombers.

We already had that before, but now their bombs are less likely to be as sophisticated and therefore less deadly, the money needed to fund these operations sparser, and the time spent on hiding instead of plotting much longer. Wars against terrorism are not won overnight, they’re wars of attrition.

> soldiers are more than willing to die for their country, their
> family and love ones as long as their mission is true to such and
> the leadership used them wisely and honorably. They are more than
> willing to go in and take this guy out

Indeed, and Israeli special forces have shown that time and again. But no one, not military nor civilian, will accept soldiers on a suicide mission that would most likely end in failure. Civilian deaths should indeed be avoided, but soldiers’ lives are not expendable either.

> You need friends, and sometimes money and weapons won’t buy you any.

Obviously. No disagreement there.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

there you go again…

my exact words were “The US can’t do too much on your domestic problems and every day goes by more and more Americans are feeling that Sept11 is because of Israel, however true or not that is/was. ” Where did i say i think it’s because entirely of Isreal for 9/11? It is very true as each day goes by, the opinion of the Americans here is starting to feel that this blind partial preference we give the Israelis don’t buy us anything, infact harms us very gravely. Skythe can say “too bad”, but i’m sure he won’t say that if the American people exercise their right to impartially judge what their actions should be (this has nothing to do with right or wrong, but soverignty of our decisions). If this impartiallity becomes thinking twice everytime we back Israel, he’ll definately rethink his “too bad” attitude. If you’re not worried about internal problems with the Palestinians and more with your neighbors, then wouldn’t Isreal be more than welling to negotiate for the recent promise by nearly all Arabs to declare recognition of the Israeli state. You see, that is very inconsistent with what Skythe is saying. These things are in general, so no need to go into details, what’s important is that if that’s true shouldn’t Israel be more than willing to show continuous initiatives to hear out what such an offer is? No, it was slammed down because of Palestinian terrors, but wait again, didn’t you just say the more serious threat is the outside enemy? The US has rarely looses credibility of going back on their promises when it comes to things carrying huge consequences. One of those credibility rides on the Americans providing full support to Israel as a collatoral to the Egyptian peace treaty (get your timeline correct, that promise was after the “delay” you’ve mentioned). So, if Egypt goes wild, and US don’t help, that credibility is seriously damaged. So what about “credibility”? This “credibility” is the exact reason the US is at total odds against China on Taiwan. The US has lost considerable advantages over Europeans in Chinese markets, but that is because a promise was made, “Taiwan Relations Act”, and that promise must be kept.
I didn’t say the IDF kills Israelis, and yes Skythe didn’t really insinuate i say that, but i think he’s either missing my point or i wasn’t being clear. What i meant is that the IDF needs to crack down on these terrorests, they need to protect citizens, and the weapons/material procurements need to reflect this. For this example, you should send in Commandos just to take him out even if it’s going to cost dozens of soldiers life just because the possibility of a collatoral damage is way too high. For the exchange of a few soldiers life, now you have a situation where dozens of new misguided Palestinian teens will more than willing to become suicide bombers. What have you accomplish? As to use soldiers life prudently, yes that i agree 100%, but what i believe (tell me where i’m wrong) soldiers are more than willing to die for their country, their family and love ones as long as their mission is true to such and the leadership used them wisely and honorably. They are more than willing to go in and take this guy out. For example, at Mogadishu, the US soldiers werent’ pissed off at the way the things went, but they were definately pissed off at the way the next day the entire mission was called off because of the lack of the leadership in our political leaders of the time. By risking the possiblity of a few soldiers killed, you could’ve save quite a lot of civilians. Now i’m afraid something really bad might happen in Isreal in the coming months. I hope for the best, but i hope you have no illusion on how pissed many of these Palestinians are. My friend used to tell me about his feeling toward somebody he really didn’t like “Decent people don’t like other people to get mad at them”. So, i guess your “too bad” attitude shows it all. You need friends, and sometimes money and weapons won’t buy you any.

Vortex,

This article says it all, how I think about Israel’s responsability for IX-XI and so on.

How to Win the War on Terrorism
Ted Rall, AlterNet
July 19, 2002
Viewed on July 27, 2002

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Most Americans were shocked by the attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center. Suddenly, like a bolt out of a clear blue sky, radical Muslims who hated us for no conceivable reason had killed 3,000 innocent people for reasons both mysterious and nefarious. Our response was knee-jerk: we had to get even. The “evildoers,” Bush told us, were led by Osama bin Laden. He, and they, lived in Afghan caves. We would bomb those caves, he promised, until America was safe again.

In truth, Afghanistan had always been a sideshow of anti-Americanism, a mere backlot funded and armed by Pakistani intelligence. Most of the training camps, extremist groups and Al Qaeda itself were in Pakistan. Gen. Musharraf, our new “ally,” was virulently anti-American and pro-Taliban. Bombing Afghanistan never made sense as a way of “getting” the 9-11 guys because the 9-11 guys were all Saudis and Egyptians. Bombing may do the trick, but you’d have to bomb the right country — and Afghanistan isn’t it.

We wanted to get even for 9-11, but we missed the point: 9-11 was an act of revenge for more than a decade of perceived insults and abuses. Muslims around the world watched in anger and despair as hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died, first in the Gulf War and later as the result of U.S.-imposed trade sanctions and daily bombing raids over Iraqi cities. They were appalled by the continuing carnage in the endless Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a meat-grinder that claimed a grossly disproportionate number of Palestinians.

For many Muslims, from Amman to Tashkent to Karachi, President Clinton’s 1998 cruise missile attacks on Afghanistan and Sudan were the last straw. Despite ironclad proof that the Sudanese plant destroyed in the attack manufactured nothing more deadly than aspirin, the U.S. government refused to apologize for its mistake.

After years of trying to grab our attention with smaller Attacks — on the World Trade Center in ’93, U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, on the U.S.S. Cole — there still wasn’t any serious discussion of American actions in the Muslim world among American leaders or journalists. That’s when jihadis decided to launch a big-budget, theatrical assault not even the thickest-headed American could ignore. Sayonara, World Trade Center.

Why They Hate Us

“There are people that hate our freedoms, that really can’t stand the thought that people are able to worship freely or speak their mind freely, or be able to realize their dreams regardless of who they are,” Bush says. “They don’t like that, and therefore they want to strike out at America again.”

Actually, they don’t give a fig about our freedoms. Islamists don’t want to impose Islam on America, they want to make Muslim countries more radically Muslim. They also want us to stop messing with them.

When terrorists make demands, take them at their word. When bin Laden says he wants us to remove our military bases from the Arabian Peninsula, drop trade sanctions against Iraq and stop arming Israel, believe it: that’s exactly what he wants. It may or may not be wise to give into these demands, but dismissing them as the rants of cave-dwelling freedom-haters is lunacy. Terrorists resort to violence because they don’t believe that writing letters to the editor, lobbying Congress or other “legitimate” means of disagreement stand a chance of success. Ignoring their concerns entirely — not to be confused with giving in to them — is sure to infuriate them further, which will merely increase the frequency and scale of future attacks.

Who They Are

You can’t effectively fight your enemies unless you understand their motivations. Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and similar groups are composed of men — most with wives and children — who don’t consider themselves terrorists. If anything, calling them terrorists only hardens their resolve and their belief that Westerners don’t “get it.” From their point of view they belong to resistance organizations. (One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist; in August of 1944 Charles de Gaulle’s Free French were transformed overnight from brigands and bandits into the Internationally recognized government of France.)

Desperate, determined individuals whose political and other concerns are systemically excluded from mainstream discourse by those in power form resistance organizations. Their structure is loose and internally secretive; every leader is dispensable. Few members know other members save the person who recruited them and one or two more they themselves recruit. They lead low-key lives and don’t attract attention to themselves. They don’t attend meetings. Their cellular structure and secrecy makes them hard to find and catch in significant numbers.

Historically, governments have typically responded to resistance groups (“terrorists,” if it makes you feel better) by applying standard tools of repression: mass arrests, infiltration, torture, reprisals against members’ relatives and associates. These tactics hardly ever work. The African National Congress, Free French and the Solidarity movement all faced formidable, better-armed adversaries in the Afrikaners, Nazis and Soviets. And yet the former eventually seized power from the latter. In fact, repressive tactics radicalize moderates and fence sitters, increasing the ranks of the resistors. Who doubts that Hamas recruits new members among those who watch Israeli bulldozers knock down their neighbors’ homes?

How to Fight Them

I’m not a pacifist. Military action is necessary to defend a nation’s borders from invaders. But you can no more bomb a resistance organization out of existence than you can track down every one of the estimated 40,000 Al Qaeda members living outwardly bland lives all over the globe. So how do you stop them?

The short answer is that you can’t — not entirely. As long as explosives are cheap and the world breeds despair, there will be someone willing to walk into Times Square with an Uzi and a last will and testament. But we can turn once again to history for a solution.

Despite occasional flare-ups, Northern Ireland’s “troubles” are a shadow of the crisis they once were. The Irish Republican Army, after decades of armed attacks against British occupation forces and their Protestant paramilitary allies, has disarmed. Sinn Fein has been mainstreamed (some might say co-opted) into Irish politics. Here in the United States, the Weather Underground — once the most feared domestic revolutionary organization of the late ’60s — disintegrated when Nixon began pulling troops out of Vietnam. In both cases, the groups evaporated when their cause — in the first example, the alienation and oppression of Northern Irish Catholics, opposition to the Vietnam War in the second — vanished.

Both the IRA and the Weather Underground were composed of relatively small numbers of committed members who received financial support from larger numbers of sympathizers. During the ’80s many Irish bars in Boston and New York promised to send a portion of their profits to the IRA.

Similarly, Islamist groups draw their financial strength, the asset that allows people from impoverished Third World countries to fund a $200,000 attack against the U.S. on 9-11, from millions of sympathetic Muslims. That broad-based outrage, in the form of millions of dimes and quarters dropped into collection plates in mosques worldwide, should serve as a signal that, just maybe, American policies in the Middle East and elsewhere should be reassessed.

What About Punishing the Evildoers?

Obviously, the perps of 9-11 should be brought to justice. Perhaps the Bushies are already working with Saudi and Egyptian authorities to track down members of the specific groups that planned and executed 9-11. If so, these guys, once arrested, should be put on trial for crimes against humanity at the World Court at The Hague. This would show the world that the U.S. seeks impartial justice rather than ham-fisted vengeance.

Addressing Islamist demands — not caving in outright — would eliminate most of the broad-based Muslim support for jihadi groups. Moreover, they’d do us more good than harm. Withdrawing our support for the corrupt Saudi dictatorship might lead to a less pro-American regime, for example, but it would begin to inoculate us from the mostly-justified criticism that we pro-democracy Americans promote oppression wherever it suits our business interests.

Stopping or reducing our $3 billion per annum flow of arms to Israel would allow us to truly act as an impartial negotiator in the Middle East, not to mention put a dent in the deficit. We could still offer to defend Israel in the event of an invasion, and while that stance wouldn’t sate Osama et al., it wouldn’t spark much anger among the great Arab mainstream.

It’s a simple equation, really: Parse Islamist demands into the acceptable and unreasonable, ignore the ridiculous and respond constructively to the mainstream. Take away the cause’s raison d’être and the cause goes away. To be sure, there may always be a few lunatics willing to blow themselves up for Allah — but their bank accounts will be small, and so will their bombs.

Ted Rall’s new book is “To Afghanistan and Back.”

Skythe is right

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-07-02 AT 10:29 AM (GMT)]Vortex, I don’t believe IX-XI is thanks to Israel. That’s just complete BS. AFAIK, the capital of the United States is Washington and not Tel Aviv. The reason for IX-XI is so much more than only Israel. The American troops in Saudi Arabia, Bush’s foreign policy, not only towards Israel but towards the whole middle east, the “resource war” rather than the war on terror the US is making …. Supporting such a corrupt regime like Saudi Arabia upsetted Osama probably a lot more than Israel. You have to be correct, the terrorist on IX-XI were all Saudi’s and Egyptians, no Iraqi’s, Iranians or Palestinians. Skythe is true when he says for Israel the big danger is not Syria but Saudi Arabia. If there’s one regime I find “evil” in the ME, surely it must be Saudi Arabia. A bunch of rich sjeiks, who get support from the US, while their own population has no say.

RE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-07-02 AT 07:19 AM (GMT)]> It’s a Israeli Defense Farce

Oh my, someone’s really pissed off if he sees the need to take such poor shots at the IDF. Of course, anyone can play that game. Captured Bin Laden yet, Vortex?
But I err, I certainly don’t think of the US or its armed forces so poorly and I can fully appreceiate the difficulties they encounter fighting their war. Too bad some people can’t stand certain simple truths and see the need to lash out. Was I comment about Kosovo unjustified? I don’t think so.

But Vortex did bring up certain interesting points:

> It seems to me that given that more Israeli civilians die recently
> than soldiers, by far more, the Israeli Defense Force is nothing
> more than to let the Isreali civilians defending them.

If I didn’t know any better, I’d think it was the IDF killing all those civilians! Unfortunately, Israeli civilians are the target of choice for our opponents, so yes, more civilians than soldiers are dying. Nor is there any shame in attempting to save the lives of your soldiers, as the Americans or Europeans on this forum know all too well.

> Don’t give excuses like how this “war” is different, because
> clearly the IDF have wasted tax payer’s hard earn money to buy
> weapons that don’t even apply to the real needs of Israeli security

The real needs of Israel’s security are first and foremost the survival of the nation before an assault by thousands of Syrian, Egyptian and Iraqi tanks that may converge on our borders, the thousands of aircraft that may try to attack us and the thousands of balistic missiles that may one day land in our towns and cities.

> think the US won’t help you in the event of a major war? So, why
> this top heaviness in weapons?

The US will help us, yes, but not by fighting for us, nor will its assistance arrive by some magic teleportation. In 1973 American assistance begun a full week after the launch of the war and 4 days after the Soviets begun airlifting supplies to the Arabs. We had to fight off the Syrians on the Golan and halt Egypt in the Sinai on our own devices.

> If someone dare to attack Israeli from the outside, you can sure
> bet the US military will be there to hammer down the enemy.

Please, I love the US and value its friendship, but that’s simply not true. The US has never intervened militarily in any of our wars, nor do we expect it to. The only time it did anything close was in Iraq, and that was only because it feared Israeli retaliation against Iraqi Scuds might break up the coalition.

> And if someone is crazy enough to do it, they’ll do it irregardless
> of how many nukes you have.

It’s not the little crazies we’re afraid of, it’s the big ones! Saddam Hussein, Iran’s ruling clergy … you know, the good guys!

> It seems to me that Israelis only care about themselves and that
> with the way the US is sticking out for Israelis we don’t even get
> a consideration from Israel the implications of your actions on our
> (US) civilian’s well being.

Oh please, spare me the preaching. We care for ourselves just as you do for yourselves. The real threat to Israel does not lie in Syria’s outdated MiG-29s or few SU-27s but in Egyptian F-16s, Apaches, Harpoons and M1A1s, in Saudi E-3s and F-15s, etc. etc. Every nation does what it has to according to its own interests. I don’t expect any less from the US, nor will I go about making such poor demagogic proclamations such as “they care only for themselves”. We don’t.
If you think 9/11 is because of us, too bad. If you wish to dump the incident on our laps, go ahead, get in line. Didn’t you know we’re alreay responsible for all the Middle East’s woes? Bin Laden has never struck at Israel, Palestinian members of his group are almost unheard of, but keep telling yourself it’s all our fault.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

So, had he survived the 2000lbf bomb what are you going to use next? 3000lbf bomb? 5000lbf bomb if someone survived the 3000lbf ones just because they got lucky? Excuses. Israeli civilians are dying every other day and you worry more about soldiers dying? It seems to me that given that more Israeli civilians die recently than soldiers, by far more, the Israeli Defense Force is nothing more than to let the Isreali civilians defending them. It’s a Israeli Defense Farce. Why do people have this high prestige for the IDF when clearly the IDF failed miserably recently. For every IDF action there will be proportionally more Israeli civilian deaths. Don’t give excuses like how this “war” is different, because clearly the IDF have wasted tax payer’s hard earn money to buy weapons that don’t even apply to the real needs of Israeli security. You think the US won’t help you in the event of a major war? So, why this top heaviness in weapons? Why these interests in offensive nuke weapons mated to long range deliveries? If someone dare to attack Israeli from the outside, you can sure bet the US military will be there to hammer down the enemy. So, spend more on your domestic problems. No excuses like “deterence”, because the US is big deterence enough. And if someone is crazy enough to do it, they’ll do it irregardless of how many nukes you have. See the recent surge in the US funding of anti terrorism fundings, sometimes at the expense of certain luxury weapons that isn’t really needed at all. The US can’t do too much on your domestic problems and every day goes by more and more Americans are feeling that Sept11 is because of Israel, however true or not that is/was. It seems to me that Israelis only care about themselves and that with the way the US is sticking out for Israelis we don’t even get a consideration from Israel the implications of your actions on our (US) civilian’s well being. You can say all the sorry and sympathies you want for our loss, but your track record is very very poor in this respect and seems like you 100% don’t care. Well, i do. And many people do. And even more people will start to.

RE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

No no Skythe!!!

Don’t be so cruel!

We should have told to our police force that we wanted that ‘man’ arrested. That would have pleased the world, and for sure the Palestinians…

RE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

Don’t bother Barak, the use of the 2000lb bomb was indeed a mistake. We should have used cluster bombs, like NATO did in Kosovo. Hundreds of civilian deaths during the bombing campaign there, certain regions are uninhabitable to this day, but our leader is the Hitlerite war-criminal. Right …

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=190550&contr…

Note especially this:

“This assessment was based on the IDF’s experience from another attempt less than two weeks ago. On July 14, the IDF dropped a quarter-ton bomb on a workshop in Khan Yunis that was being used to manufacture mortar shells and Kassam rockets. The goal was both to destroy the workshop and to kill the senior Hamas operative who ran it. But the building was only partially destroyed, and the wanted operative escaped unscathed. The defense establishment wanted to ensure that there was no similar error with Shehadeh.

“Had the bomb not killed Shehadeh, he would have understood that we were on his tail and once again disappeared underground,” explained a defense source. “Then we wouldn’t have been able to get him for months, and he would have been free to continue launching attacks.”

The IDF also feared that a helicopter might be vulnerable to a ground-based attack. Use of ground forces was ruled out for a similar reason – fear that this would result in many Israeli casualties.”

RE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

Yeah like one Hellfire could destroy such a big building. You would have to fire 4 – 5 of them.

RE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

Geforce, what I meant was that the militant Palestinian leaders are hiding in highly populated civil areas daring the Israelis to come after them knowing that when they do, they can use that against the Israelis when it comes to international opinion of them. I’m not referring to civlian Palestinians, such as those children, who had no reason to die. Personally, if they had to get him, a Hellfire or TOW from an Apache or Cobra woudl’ve worked much better. I think a 2,000-lb. weapon is way too much overkill. Go on though, defend the militans, that’s what you’re best at.

RE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 25-07-02 AT 08:02 AM (GMT)]I agree that the IDF have the right to protect themselves and go after this #####. But what i don’t agree is that with the usage of a 2000lbf bomb. Man, that’s just way way too large. The US gets criticized when a 500lbf LGB went wayward in a far less dense populated area, and you are using 2000lbf bombs in a densely populated area? Even if you hit exactly where you want, you can’t tell anybody with a straight face that a 2000lbf bomb won’t also destroy everything nearby. That’s exactly what happend. Don’t give me excuses of “well, we’ve already posponed it x many times”. If you can pospone that many times, do it again. Even if the intellegence is right, even if the house only have that ##### and his advisers, even if the bomb hits the most ideal location, a 2000lbf? NO, something is wrong there, and to me that is second degree murder. There are some Palestinian leaders calling this as a war crime, i somewhat agree because exactly of the tonnage of the bomb used, but i must say this will be an embarresment to Dutchy’s often prized War Crime Court in Hague, because they can’t do one damn thing about it. The court just lost it’s integrity. This is one of the kind of situations where i and others have been trying to say all this time. What are you going to do? Go in and arrest Isreali leaders who order the 2000lbf bomb used? Ridiculous.

I don’t care how anybody use the Geneva convention, this is a question of morality. Who gives a damn about Geneva convention, all this show is that both sides have rather low morality from their leadership. If Geneva convention allows it then you’re going to do it, no questions asked? Just the same with corporate ethics. Nobody says it’s illegal to do certain accounting procedures, but is it moral, ethical?

Judgement based on good faith, and the Israeli bombing with the kind of bomb used definately shows no good faith. Another interesting thing, a survey result just released few hours ago shows that the majority of Isreali settlement residents are willing to relocate in order to promote peace, so it seems like all this time of the importance of the settlements the Isreali leaders claimed on behalf of the settlers are nothing more than just political moves to insure their own seats in the democracy. I don’t what to say except disgust on people like Sharon. I won’t call him a Hitler because it’s simply just not a fair comparison, but i have very very bad view of him and it’s getting worse, in the world’s eye, in the American public’s eye. Please let Israelis have more wisdom than to continue supporting him. There will be no end.

RE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

Twisting your words? Why would I do that? I think your message is clear most of the times. Where did I twist your words, my dear Phantom?

RE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 25-07-02 AT 01:15 AM (GMT)]>According to the Geneva Convention it is a “war-crime” to
>target or attack military personnel or objects if there may
>be civillians near-by.

That’s simply not true. The Geneva Convention, in part 3 Article 28, states that “the presence of a protected person (civilian) may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.”
Furthermore, the convention does not define infringements as “War-Crimes” for the mere reason that these words don’t even appear in it. Those definitions are later interpretations, they’re not part of the convention.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong

Geforce, stop twisting my words. You know damn well what I meant.