In Memory of The Fifty!

Jim, in some ways, I agree! The town is now officially in Poland, and its name is Żagań. However, there are facts which are hard to discern, even when experiencing the former grounds itself. I don’t believe there are actually any human remains at Żagań, but there are the original monuments which the POWs at Luft III built in 1944. The train station is what’s eerie to me. Except for the Polish words on the signs, it is as if time forgot about the place.

The best way to experience the events is to travel to Sagan. The Museum that is slowly being expanded is incredible. The artifacts are extensive and well presented. The site of the camp is completely overgrown but the barracks foundations are still present. The route of tunnel Harry is well marked and access is made possible by the museum officials. The town seems very much untouched by time and it is easy to imagine the conditions that were the 1940’s. The 50 are also commerated at a small cemetary just outside the camp. It is really quite moving to visit and worth the effort.

Jim Harley

One in particular written by J Vance has some glaring errors in it, which are unfortunately repeated in books which have used it as reference.

Undoubtedly, there are errors, which is unfortunate, because I do know that he has done an inordinate amount of research and spoken with hundreds of men from Stalag Luft III over the past decades. However, I have yet to read a book on either the Great Escape or Stalag Luft III with NO errors! What is even more amazing is that some of the original documents in various archives have errors. Lesson: what you read may or may not be true, regardless of the source! But then, that seems to be true for much of life, I fear.

Unfortunately, a few were not only married but also had children or pregnant wives. Tom Kirby-Green and Paul Tobolski immediately come to mind.

You’re quite right !!! Tom Kirby-Green’s wife married Roy Langlois a Guernseyman who was one of the last out of the tunnel, and one of the first to be recaptured. Kirby-Greens son has been interviewed several times in programmes about the Escape.

However these seem to be the exception and were probably picked because they were persistant escapers, and therefore troublesome. Though I admit I can only refer to the various books written on the subject. One in particular written by J Vance has some glaring errors in it, which are unfortunately repeated in books which have used it as reference.

They also picked single men wherever possible (though not all of them were),

Unfortunately, a few were not only married but also had children or pregnant wives. Tom Kirby-Green and Paul Tobolski immediately come to mind.

JDK, as far as I remember (perhaps BlueNoser will able to correct me if I’m wrong) when the Germans decided to execute some of the escapers the rule they adopted was to pick all those who weren’t British and then add enough Brits to make it a nice round number… So the proportion of nationalities among those executed is biased agains the proportions among the escapers.

That’s been a rumor, but I don’t believe any real evidence has surfaced to back up the claim. However, if someone knows of some authentic documentation (not just an undocumented claim in a book), please share!

JDK, as far as I remember (perhaps BlueNoser will able to correct me if I’m wrong) when the Germans decided to execute some of the escapers the rule they adopted was to pick all those who weren’t British and then add enough Brits to make it a nice round number… So the proportion of nationalities among those executed is biased agains the proportions among the escapers.

They also picked single men wherever possible (though not all of them were), however Raymond Van Wymeersch (French) was spared, something he could never understand, in the end he took his own life in 2000.

The film is true to events that took place at some point during the existence of Stalag Luft 3, however they weren’t all connected with the escape itself. Of course the Americans weren’t involved in the actual escape, they did assist with the construction of the tunnel, and no one tried to jump the Swiss border on a motorcycle.

Excellant website on the Great Escape here:- http://www.elsham.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gt_esc/
mmitch.

Manhunt

“Exemplary Justice” by Allen Andrews is a book about the hunting of the war criminals involved.

Thanks Kukri,
I did say a ‘quick’ count! Obviously it’s a small and unusual sample; but it’s interesting that less than half the murdered escapees were British (itself a catch all term in some cases – Scots, Irish, etc, plus those that chose British despite another nationality). We have a Maori, as well as white New Zealanders, and, I would like to point out, in particular, for some of our correspondants here, a Frenchman.

JDK, as far as I remember (perhaps BlueNoser will able to correct me if I’m wrong) when the Germans decided to execute some of the escapers the rule they adopted was to pick all those who weren’t British and then add enough Brits to make it a nice round number… So the proportion of nationalities among those executed is biased agains the proportions among the escapers.

Nice to see many of you remembered these men today as well, on the Region 2 DVD, there are two excellent programs on the history of the Great Escape , one deals with what happen to the fifty and how the British tracked down all those responsible for the executions. The second one is from “History vs Hollywood” shown on The Hisotry Channel, tells how the films director John Stergis tried to stay close to the original story and once again (U-571) provide story lines for the American Cast in the film. While the Steve McQueen role adds something to the film, it does bother me to the extent it never happened . This has caused many Stalag Luft III veterans to disapprove of the film. Once again trying to alter and change real history by those in the film industry. The region one DVD sold here in the states does not offer any extras , glad I bought one while in the UK. Its a real tribute to these brave men!

A Salute from BlueNoser352!

Ironically, a couple of RAF escapee’s did ride a motorcycle to freedom. New Zealander Jimmy Thiele and Terry Spencer rode one across the Remagen bridge to freedom. Both had been in 41 Squadron flying Spit XIIs. Jimmy Thiele later had 3 Squadron with Tempests and Terry had 350 Squadron with Spit XIVs. Both went down to be POWs and later escaped.

Dan

Hi all
does anyone know what happened to the executioners?
Obviously the names seem to be known.
Scharpwinkel and Lux seem to crop up as the offenders often enough.
Hopefully they had the feeling the rope start to tighten round their throats.
Anyone know??
Andy

Scharpwinkel was most likely released to the Russians. There is a Canadian crew involved in a documentary about finding Scharpwinkel. It is even possible that he is alive today! The hunt is on.

I’m in contact with Robert (Bobby)Laumans (350 belgian Sqn)who was one of the men preparing the Great Escape (earth in his pockets).He says that the first part of the film ,before the escape self,tells the truth.
To Stieglitz.My opinion is that many Belgians are interested by aviation (remember the crowded BAF meetings) BUT there are very few contacts between them.

LEST WE FORGET,the fifty and the others.

More Info on The Great Escape!

Nice to see many of you remembered these men today as well, on the Region 2 DVD, there are two excellent programs on the history of the Great Escape , one deals with what happen to the fifty and how the British tracked down all those responsible for the executions. The second one is from “History vs Hollywood” shown on The Hisotry Channel, tells how the films director John Stergis tried to stay close to the original story and once again (U-571) provide story lines for the American Cast in the film. While the Steve McQueen role adds something to the film, it does bother me to the extent it never happened . This has caused many Stalag Luft III veterans to disapprove of the film. Once again trying to alter and change real history by those in the film industry. The region one DVD sold here in the states does not offer any extras , glad I bought one while in the UK. Its a real tribute to these brave men!

A Salute from BlueNoser352!

Originally posted by Andy in Beds
Hi all
does anyone know what happened to the executioners?
Obviously the names seem to be known.
Scharpwinkel and Lux seem to crop up as the offenders often enough.
Hopefully they had the feeling the rope start to tighten round their throats.
Anyone know??
Andy

The murderers were hunted down and suffered a variety of fates – some were executed, others imprisoned and others either vanished or ended up behind the Iron Curtain.

Lots of information here about the escape, the escapers and the murderers.
http://www.elsham.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gt_esc/

Hi all
does anyone know what happened to the executioners?
Obviously the names seem to be known.
Scharpwinkel and Lux seem to crop up as the offenders often enough.
Hopefully they had the feeling the rope start to tighten round their throats.
Anyone know??
Andy

Yep JDK. I did not mention this one. Thankfully, we still have this beauty. But I only wanted to state that history does not make part in the lives of many Belgian people.

Belgum.
Brussels Air Museum. One of the world’s great aviation museums… certainly the only one in an ex-jousting hall!
Cheers

Thanks.

I believe it is a good thing that some small ceremony will be organized there at Florennes. A lot of aviation history is totaly neglected here in Belgium. Only very few people know something about aviation and wartime history. Shame!:mad: Here we have a lot of forgotten soldiers. This only makes me sad. So hopfully, you can organize something.

To honour the many.

The Great Escape – Henri Picard – 350 (Belgian) Squadron

Hi Guys – I have been in touch with the current day 350 squadron of the Belgian Air Force and they state “350 Sqn will never forget its squadron members and a special thought for Henri Picard will be emphasized by the Sqn CO on the 29th of March.

Unfortunately, we are not in a position to organize a formal ceremony opened for external audience.

On this same date, 350 Sqn will deploy 09 F-16 cross the Atlantic Ocean to El Centro (California). 350 Sqn has a very busy training calendar, not mentioning the permanent commitments for NATO or EU-lead operations.

However, we will try to organize a small ceremony in Florennes for the remembrance of the D-Day in the end of May till mid-June timeframe, with the presence of the pilots who flew that day. – cheers – Allan125