India and the AKULA-class SSN

Three Akula-II subs – Viper, Nerpa and Gepard – are already commissioned in the Russian Navy. These were inducted in 1995, 2000 and 2001 respectively.

Thats interesting. My sources (inc. Janes) say NERPA is an Improved AUKLA I, not AKULA II. Thanks for the articles Austin, they help.

MilParade Article Of the commisioning of Gepard , Makes an intresting read

one more read from pravada

Indian Navy To Lease Russian
Nuclear-Powered Submarine
2-6-2

London (PTI) – India Navy will lease two Russian nuclear-powered submarines (SSNs) to meet its expanding operational responsibilities and counter the increasing Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean and Bay of Bengal.

The lease will continue till indigenously-built nuclear-powered submarine – the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) – enters service, ‘Jane’s Defence Weekly’ has reported quoting official sources.

Indian Navy will lease two Akula (Bars)-class Type 971 SSNs for five years after financing their construction under an agreement currently being negotiated with Rosoboronexport, Russia’s state-owned arms exporting agency, the report said.

The SSN’s are expected to enter service of the Indian Navy during 2004, although the contract is still to be approved by the Indian government.

Reports from Moscow say the Type 971 programme has been frozen because of funding problems. Fourteen submarines have been built and the last one was commissioned last December.

The leasing deal with India will help Russia finance construction of the fourth generation Severodvinsk-class SSN (Type 885) already underway at the Sevmash shipyard, according to Russian sources.

Negotiations for the two Type 971 SSNs gained momentum during Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee’s visit to Russia last November.

This deal was given added impetus following the admission by Indian Navy officials that the ATV’s development faced technological and financial problems and was nowhere near completion.

The ATV design is believed to be based on the ex-Soviet “Charlie” class SSN, one of which the Indian Navy leased for three years in 1988.

Copyright © 2002 Press Trust of India Ltd. All rights reserved.

Found An Article , which confirms IN intention for Akula-2 subs.
Indian Navy trains on Russian N-sub
Vishal Thapar and Fred Weir
The Hindustan Times
New Delhi/Moscow, February 21: An Indian Navy submarine crew has been training in Russia for the last one year. The training included sea time in an Akula-II SSN nuclear-powered attack submarine.
According to highly-placed sources in New Delhi and Moscow, India is negotiating with Russia the lease of an unfinished Akula-II Bars class nuclear submarine. Work on this submarine was about 85 per cent complete when its construction stopped in 1996.

This unfinished submarine is reportedly “sitting” at the Amur Shipbuilding Plant at Komsomolsk-na-Amur in eastern Siberia. Negotiations for its lease have been going on for over three years.

The Akula-IIs are the fastest Soviet-designed submarines with enhanced combat potential. These are known to be armed with up to 12 Cruise missiles, as well as Starfish and Stallion anti-ship missiles.

Significantly, India and Russia are jointly producing the Brahmos PJ-10 Cruise missile. This was successfully test-fired over 300 km last year.

The only time India operated a nuclear submarine was between 1998 and 1991, when it leased from Russia a Charlie class nuclear-powered submarine (SSN). The Indian Navy operated this under the name INS Chakra. The vessel was returned in 1991, and subsequently decommissioned.

A nuclear-propelled submarine gives a navy an ability to stay underwater for operations for a long period of time without having to surface for replenishment.

After 1991, little was done by the Indian Navy to retain its skills for operating a nuclear submarine. Till 1998, there was no effort to procure even a nuclear propulsion simulator for training.

Former Naval Chief Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat claims that there was a deliberate policy to de-skill the Indian Navy. “Most personnel who operated the Cha-kra were boarded out,” he says.

On January 16, Naval Chief Admiral Madhvendra Singh said it would take two-and-half years to reskill the Indian Navy to handle a nuclear submarine. The training in Russia is seen as preparation to acquire one.

Three Akula-II subs – Viper, Nerpa and Gepard – are already commissioned in the Russian Navy. These were inducted in 1995, 2000 and 2001 respectively. Three more – including the one India’s interested in – are reported to be in various stages of completion in Severodvinsk in Russia’s far north and Komsomolsk-na-Amur in the far east.

It’s pointless to put a PEM AIP or even enhanced batteries on a nuke boat for the purpose of stealth because the anticipated gain is not worth the work. The pumps to the reactors still need to run even while running on batteries and this is the main cause of noise.

Rubbish. Nuclear reactors can very quickly be shut down and started up on nuclear powered subs. When Shut down they don’t need any cooling. The stealth “gain” is what makes Diesel electrics so quiet when they are running only on electrics.

I think too much is being made which variant of Akula is being leased , whether it Akula , Improved Akula or the Akula-2 , First of All from IN prespective the whole Idea to lease N-Sub , is first and foremost have a credible underwater second strike capability , which only a N-sub can provide you, second is to impart training to the men on N-sub , sinnce all that training imparted from Charlie-2 (INS Chakra) subs , has more or less diluted away , coz the charlie had to be returned abruptly after the break up of soviet union.and thirdly the idea is to gain and learn what ever possible in terms of engineering , training , weapons , tactics employed in a moderm N-sub , so as long as the subs being operated is a modern one and state of the art , the IN is not complaining , and Akula no matter if its the older one or its modern variant is quite a capable sub specially against your closest rival be it China or Pakistan , so even if the Navy gets the older Akula or its newer cousin , it will serve effectively as a N- deterrent platform till the ATV comes.

Austin, I agree, but I still want to know. 🙂

Just read in Combat Fleets 2000-2001 edition, that two incomplete Improved AKULA I-class were offered to India in 1999. Could these be the ones in question today?

I think too much is being made which variant of Akula is being leased , whether it Akula , Improved Akula or the Akula-2 , First of All from IN prespective the whole Idea to lease N-Sub , is first and foremost have a credible underwater second strike capability , which only a N-sub can provide you, second is to impart training to the men on N-sub , sinnce all that training imparted from Charlie-2 (INS Chakra) subs , has more or less diluted away , coz the charlie had to be returned abruptly after the break up of soviet union.and thirdly the idea is to gain and learn what ever possible in terms of engineering , training , weapons , tactics employed in a moderm N-sub , so as long as the subs being operated is a modern one and state of the art , the IN is not complaining , and Akula no matter if its the older one or its modern variant is quite a capable sub specially against your closest rival be it China or Pakistan , so even if the Navy gets the older Akula or its newer cousin , it will serve effectively as a N- deterrent platform till the ATV comes.

It’s pointless to put a PEM AIP or even enhanced batteries on a nuke boat for the purpose of stealth because the anticipated gain is not worth the work. The pumps to the reactors still need to run even while running on batteries and this is the main cause of noise.

Just read in Combat Fleets 2000-2001 edition, that two incomplete Improved AKULA I-class were offered to India in 1999. Could these be the ones in question today?

Garry

AIP makes a diesel stealthier by not requiring it to surface or run noisy diesels, but unless it is a fuel cell then it will still make some noise generating power.

yo tks for that one, and yes i was having this in mind as Russians were indeed the first ones to develop the Electrochemical generators (fuel cells) which also got inputs from their space flights etc etc ….. so was considring that maybe that 3.4 m of extra section (same length as that of an Amur AIP section?) maybe using their first generation AIP etc etc ….

and indeed their plan for the third generation AIP is real good with figures like nearly 100 days submerged etc etc which they hope to pull out by 2010 , hope INdia co-develop with the Russians their 2nd Gen AIP , which will also hep the Russians to move forward with their 3rd generation AIP which again also wud be used in IN’s subs too as default of the co-operation …

so I guessed that it might be AIP ….. AIP is most useful for ambushing and to listen to all ur surroundings for days ahead w/o surfacing at the same time doing rounds at low speeds ….

anyway anyone got better notes as to what that section for more Quieter propulsion system is in the Akula-II ?? ……

AIPs aren’t necessarily quieter. The most quiet form of propulsion is electric and with enough storage batteries a nuclear powered vessel could go pure electric rather longer than any other type of sub. That is the amusing conundrum with the Diesel Electric… when underwater it is a pure electric boat and therefore with no reactor needing pumps to keep it cool and to power turbines to generate power it is quieter than a nuke boat. The obvious problem is that to generate electricity to recharge its batteries it has to both surface and run noisy smelly diesel engines which makes it very easy to detect. AIP makes a diesel stealthier by not requiring it to surface or run noisy diesels, but unless it is a fuel cell then it will still make some noise generating power. (Some AIPs simply use liquid Oxygen to run normal diesel engines underwater… and that is certainly not quieter than a Nuke… unless it is a very quiet diesel and a loud nuke.)

anyway anyone got better notes as to what that section for more Quieter propulsion system is in the Akula-II ?? ……

Most western sources appear to believe this extension is further noise-dampening measures that have been applied to the engineering/reactor area. The extension is aft of the sail.

kya bidu

Why would an Akula need an AIP?

GDL

I think Blackcat is confused.

Sameer

A nuclear sub with an AIP? huh?

yeah maybe and when i mentioned that i was considering this part from GS

Built to engage surface task forces and coastal facilities, the Akula submarine design was under constant upgrade. NATO designated the Project 971 boats as Akula I, and the Project 971U as “Improved Akula I” while Project 971A was designated Akula II. According to some reports the ‘Akula-II’ class has a 3.7 meter longer hull to accomdate a quieter propulsion system. There is some non-trivial disagreement between authoritative sources as to launch and commission dates for all units, as well as which units are ‘Improved Akula’ vs. ‘Akuka-II’.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/971.htm

so I guessed that it might be AIP ….. AIP is most useful for ambushing and to listen to all ur surroundings for days ahead w/o surfacing at the same time doing rounds at low speeds ….

anyway anyone got better notes as to what that section for more Quieter propulsion system is in the Akula-II ?? ……

Defense News
June 7, 2004

India’s New Naval Ambition

Plan for Blue-Water Force Includes Ballistic Missile Sub

By Vivek Raghuvanshi, New Delhi

India also is building its own nuclear submarine, the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV), and now expects to roll it out by the end of 2005, two years earlier than originally planned.

The submarine is the result of a classified, $1.5 billion program run by the Navy, the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation, and the state nuclear research agency, Bhaba Atomic Research Centre.

Either the Akulas or the ATV could be used as missile boats, Slade said. The ATV is based on Russia’s Cold War-era Charlie-class nuclear-powered cruise missile sub, with eight vertical launching tubes. India leased a Charlie-class boat from Russia between 1988 and 1991.

“Akula originally was intended as a cruise missile carrier, but was redesigned for attack,” Slade said. “But it has 26-inch diameter torpedo tubes that could be used to launch missiles. Rough calculations indicate that the Indians might be able to get five or six missiles of six to seven hundred mile range on an Akula.”

With that kind of range, Slade said, India could strike about 80 percent of what it would consider a target in China.

Indian vs. Chinese Subs

“From a military perspective, it’s a long way from India to Northern China. But it’s not a long way from the North China Sea to Northern China.”

The expansion of the Indian Navy comes as China also presses ahead with a major naval modernization effort that includes new nuclear attack and ballistic missiles submarines, analysts said.

“The Chinese submarines aren’t very good,” Slade said. “The five Han-class attack subs represent a very early level of nuclear submarine technology. They are dangerous, extraordinarily noisy, not well armed, and their sensors are primitive and limited. They have one boomer, the Xia, but it’s not entirely clear what its status is.”

The Xia is not very good, Slade and other analysts said, in large part because it’s a Han attack boat that has been crudely increased in size by cutting it in half and welding in a 12-missile section.

“It has the same flaws as the Han, only louder,” Slade said. “Two new classes of sub are coming down the road, one a hunter killer, the Project 093, that may be based on a Russian design, and the Project 094, a missile sub that is a 093 with a missile compartment added.”

China’s diesel submarine force is of either the antiquated Romeo type, or derivatives with only a handful of more modern Kilo boats.

“The Indians have a more modern force with their four German Type 1500s and eight, with two more coming, Russian Kilos,” Slade said. “It’s more modern, and if the Indians get the two Akulas they want, they should be able to clean the Chinese clock.”

Russian N-sub by 2006 likely

Srinjoy Chowdhury
in New Delhi
May 31. — The Indian Navy is likely to acquire a Russian nuclear-submarine in two years with the final decision on the deal, being negotiated for the last four years, having been taken earlier this year.
The Akula class nuclear-powered submarine is a high-performance vessel and having one will give the Navy an incredible boost, taking it into the big league. The Russians have agreed to give India one of the newly-commissioned N-submarines for about a decade.
Asked about the acquisition of the nuclear-submarine, the defence ministry today declined to comment. High-level defence sources separately confirmed that the decision was taken at around the same time the deal on the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, also acquired from the Russians, early this year. No announcement was made and an official said the Russians wanted India to be quiet about it.
Initially, the Russians were keen on giving India an earlier vessel, but later it was decided that the Navy would get a newer submarine. The inter-governmental agreement for the Akula was signed about four years ago. Officials are tight-lipped about the price of the lease (a N-submarine cannot be bought or sold), but according to sources, the initial offer was for about Rs 1,700 crore.
For the Russians, the three deals — for the Gorshkov, the Akula and the lease on four Tu-22 long-range reconnaissance aircraft — were in a sense part of a package. The deal for the aircraft is yet to through.
India had leased a N-powered submarine from Russia — the INS Chakra — in the Eighties, but now the crew would have to be trained on this vessel. Naval officers are tight-lipped about training schedules.
In Russia, the Akula-class submarines are called the Bars Class. In India, it could be called the Project I. The first Akulas were built in the mid-Eighties but the newer ones have a more silent signature, meaning they are more difficult to track down. India has started work on a N-submarine in a Larsen and Toubro yard. They could be ready in four-five years. The Akula can carry deadly long-range cruise missiles. They are accurate and have strategic value. They also have anti-ship missiles and torpedoes.
http://thestatesman.net/page.arcview.php?clid=2&id=72872&usrsess=1

A nuclear sub with an AIP? huh?

Why would an Akula need an AIP?

I think Blackcat is confused.

Why would an Akula need an AIP?

It does not really matter since even the Akula will add quite a punch anyway, me thinks that there is a combo of a lease and tech transfer on certain items for the ATV project under the table but this is INdia’s top secret project, noone really knows, until someone can get me a pic of an Akula in Indian waters, something unlikely for someone to have since it won’t be advertising itself anyway, I will just wait for the ATV news.

yes very true even if it is the Akula-I and the improvement for the IN if this is the one cud include an extra section to have the AIP and ebtire electronics, displays etc etc being agumented … and thats indeed better in any case

That NEWS souce is Russian and person speaking is Export Chief so you

cannot question them otherwise you have to show me some explicit Russian

source not some speculation based on wishes.

This is very easy to solve, Yahoo25, you post your article, and Austin will post his Janes article, and then you guys can compare.