India plane 'crashes on landing'

Pilot error confirmed as suggested by 27vet. 🙁

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/09/09/3007555.htm?section=justin

yep…they have a tendency to do that, regularly. :rolleyes:

Hi KabirT
Though this is old news on this crash there are 50 pictures and some of them are controversial if their caption reports are to be believed; as they speak of a ‘flash strike’ by Air India workers in response to a ‘gagging’ order issued regarding this same crash.
There are some heartening shots of rescue of the few survivors and the survivors post rescue. Miracles still happen.
See URL and scroll down to the bottom of the page for the pictures and a video.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Air-India-Plane-Overshoots-Runway-In-Mangalore-Southern-India-165-Feared-Dead/Article/201005415636434?f=rss

Your views would be appreciated.

I found this only by chance while looking at the sad news on the Pakistan Air Crash.

yep…they have a tendency to do that, regularly. :rolleyes:

Hi KabirT
Please keep us all up to date as it is a Boeing 737 and many sad fatalities involved.

I presume therefore that the press (quoted in this thread) were pre-maturely reporting release dates for the initial investigative report.

yep…they have a tendency to do that, regularly. :rolleyes:

Black Box is still in the US for analysis.

Hi KabirT
Thanks for the update.
I presume therefore that the press (quoted in this thread) were pre-maturely reporting release dates for the initial investigative report.

Black Box is still in the US for analysis.

Has anyone heard anything recently ?

Has anyone heard anything recently?
The investigation reports are long overdue if the original dates of completion stated in the press were to be believed.
It’s all gone too quiet.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704050804575318553971705946.html

The Wall Street Journal article part quoted by Newforest is an interesting one.

Yes the late pilots ultimately are technically to blame but let’s assume that they were flying because they needed a salary and hence had to yield to possible bureacracy with respect to not fully adhering to the safety standards for that particular type of aircraft at that airport.

Then surely it is the bureacracy (both DGCA and Air India) that must be facing the investigators and the bereaved families.

If the WSJ article is factual then there is a lot that India seems to have been risking since over a year ago in their Air Safety standards being considered for down grading.

It’s not a ‘big stick’ approach it’s just common sense in the interests of safety and the reputation of good aircraft manufacturers.

I hope the findings from this crash brings everything out into the open and that the US Safety Experts and Boeing put their foot down with India to clean up their act rapidly.

Crew Error Suspected In Air India Crash

The flight crew of an Air India 737 that crashed in southern India last month, killing 158 people, failed to abort a sub-standard approach and then reacted with confusion and hesitation after they touched down and tried to take off again, according to a report in Monday’s Wall Street Journal. The airplane ran off the end of the runway, plummeted down a cliff, broke apart and caught fire. Eight people survived. Safety experts from the U.S. and elsewhere have been critical of India’s pilot training and operating standards for years, the Journal says. Airlines and regulators are now facing widespread criticism and have indicated that changes are forthcoming soon. An official report on the accident is due next week.

Bill Voss, CEO of the Flight Safety Foundation, told the Journal the dramatic growth of aviation in India has created an influx of pilots from various countries, resulting in challenges in communication among crews due to language and cultural differences. The captain of the accident airplane was a British citizen and the first officer was an Indian national.

Pilot Error Seen Likely in Fatal India Landing

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/IX-812-pilot-was-rapped-for-hard-landing/articleshow/5996584.cms

Hi KabirT

This is a newspaper report. Words in English can be twisted to mean a whole lot more or a whole lot less.

If the statements in this quote from a newspaper article in its entirity or parts are true then it is one that International Authorities will have to look in to very seriously.
e.g. Do the captains and pilots of Air India behave differently at International Airports outside of India ?

I presume this behaviour of captains/pilots (under duress) must only be observed and prevail in the Indian subcontinent.

As by now Air India flight captains landing at International Airports outside of India would have been reported for risking a crash, which could involve not just the aircraft they are flying but a whole lot more on the ground, and large civillian casualities.

Air India Express is a whole different aspect, although if this was practice of their captains/pilots necessitated by fear/duress, then there is much more behind this crash that the Indian Authorities must face up to and come clean with the people of India, especially the relatives and next of kin of those dead including the pilots and crew.

He was paranoid about hard landings after that. Due to the fear of being hauled up by the executive director (flight safety), Capt Glusica, like many pilots in AI Express, used to extend the flare (aircraft floating over the runway) resulting in loss of valuable runway for stopping after touchdown,” revealed a senior commander. International airlines do not haul commanders for a few hard landings within the limits as it puts undue pressure on pilots.

“In Air India and Air India Express, there is no emphasis or encouragement to pilots to do a go-around if they are doubtful about the quality of approach and the subsequent safe landing. In fact, pilots in Air India and Air India Express are petrified of a go-around as many pilots, though not all, have had to explain their action to the executive director,” another commander said. “This is apart from filing an Operations Incident Report. A copy of this goes into the records maintained by the airline’s air safety department and another goes to the Directorate General of Civil Aviation,” says a senior commander.

Air India’s Flight safety website has a list of incidents reportable to the DGCA including “discontinued approach necessitating a go-around” in it. It means, irrespective of when a go-around was initiated, it has to be reported to the DGCA.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/IX-812-pilot-was-rapped-for-hard-landing/articleshow/5996584.cms

Thks Newforest, KabirT and 27vet

Okay FDR reported located – analysis should reveal a lot. CVR is absolutely vital – still no word I guess. Plus ATC recordings, archive of radar plots (approach and ground), eye witness accounts, wreckage analysis will definitely tell the world what most likely if not definitely happened here.

27vet – many of the items you have listed from the Boeing Ops Manual for that variant of aircraft if they were tried by two experienced pilots, may just not have provided for a runway length for sudden aborted landing and take off. FDR and wreckage will tell their own technical stories.

I am more than slightly puzzled though why two pilots with experience on that model of aircraft and experience of that particular runway and airfield tried to land leaving themselves so short of any recovery. This is why CVR and ATC reports will hopefully reveal a lot.

To illustrate nJayM’s point, there are so many different possiblilties of what went wrong, including systems failures.

Here are some excerpts from the B737NG manual, reading them we can see that numerous possibilities exist :

MANUAL BRAKING ON LANDING
• Do not attempt to modulate, pump or improve the braking by any other special techniques.
Note: The antiskid system adapts pilot applied brake pressure to runway conditions by sensing an
impending skid condition and adjusting the brake pressure to each individual wheel for maximum braking.
When brakes are applied on a slippery runway, several skid cycles occur before the antiskid system
establishes the right amount of brake pressure for the most effective braking.
If the pilot modulates the brake pedals, the antiskid system is forced to readjust the brake pressure to
establish optimum braking. During this readjustment time, braking efficiency is lost.
Low available braking coefficient of friction on extremely slippery runways at high speeds may be interpreted
as a total antiskid failure. Pumping the brakes degrades braking effectiveness. Maintain steadily increasing
brake pressure, allowing the antiskid system to function at its optimum.
Although immediate braking is desired, manual braking techniques normally involve a four to five second
delay between main gear touchdown and brake pedal application even when actual conditions reflect the
need for a more rapid initiation of braking. This delayed braking can result in the loss of 800 to 1,000 feet of
runway. Directional control requirements for crosswind conditions and low visibility may further increase the
delays. Distractions arising from a malfunctioning reverser system can also result in delayed manual braking
application.
• Do not release the brake pedal pressure until the airplane speed has been reduced to a safe taxi
speed

Touch an Go(expected) (or aborted landing-unexpected)

I don’t want to take up a lot of space here but a deep landing on a fairly short and wet runway has implications in many scenarios. We shall have to wait for the investigators to determine exactly what happened.

yes the FDR has been positively found.

What is important is, have the CVR and FDR been reported by verifiable reports as being recovered safely?

Well I saw the FDR with my own eyes on TV! At least that is what they said it was although it was covered in mud and didn’t look orange.

There is a theory that if the plane landed long, deployed thrust reversers and then decided to abort the landing, there would not be time for maximum take off power to be effective. Not my theory, not my expertise.

CNN now reporting and showing the found FDR. 🙂

Of course people will take aircraft wreckage as souvenir or scrap metal. Look at any crashed aircraft in Canada, South America, Africa (Mali 727).

Yes they will especially in that part of the world. That could be simply out of humble ignorance, seeing an alternative use for it in a personal, domestic or business context or simply as a souvenir of an aircraft.

What is important is, have the CVR and FDR been reported by verifiable reports as being recovered safely?

There should also be ATC and other eye witness accounts still to be reported.

The thermals in that region on a plataeu airfield surrounded below by jungle or dense woodland can play havoc with most aircraft that have landed way further forward than the expected normal point of touch down on the runway.

Extremes of heat, humidity and cold can do very unexpected things in reality against the theoretically approved CFD surrounding the surfaces/structure of even the best aircraft.

We have to wait for official answers as to whether it simply ran out of runway inspite of maximum brakes and airbrakes being applied, was it at it’s maximum payload or had it exceeded it’s load carrying capacity, lacked runway length for a take off or even sadly possibly technically malfunctioned in some way at the key moment.

CNN now reporting and showing the found FDR. 🙂

Of course people will take aircraft wreckage as souvenir or scrap metal. Look at any crashed aircraft in Canada, South America, Africa (Mali 727).

People won’t steal wreckage debris, that’s a bit far out. :rolleyes:

Considering the number of people that surrounded the wreckage almost immediately after the crash, is it possible that the box has ‘walked’?

What good would it be to anyone ??

Now on TV, CNN still reporting that the FDR has not been found!

Considering the number of people that surrounded the wreckage almost immediately after the crash, is it possible that the box has ‘walked’?

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/24/india.plane.crash/index.html?hpt=T2

It has been found, it was shown on TV according to Indian Spotters forum.