Indian Air Defense Ship Makes Progress

A Hawkeye on the ADS and/or Gorshkov would definitely have a multiplicative effect on the whole battle group’s capabilities. With the Ka-31s doing their thing along with the Hawkeyes, the CVB would be able to control a much larger volume of space.

are the ADS and CVF of the same length ?

the CVF however being 60K looks like a much wider ship overall with
the wide part extending all the way down to the stern. It maybe better
able to accomodate the wingspan of E2 wrt parked aircraft in the rear.

lets wait and watch. with Unkil moving onto EM cats and relations quite good at the moment, they maybe willing to supply a steam cat . generating steam on demand without a nuclear reactor steam plant will be quite a challenge I think.

with just 3-4 max needed, LM has no incentive to come up with any fix to the problem. They would do something only if the USN needed it.

Not necessarily! You’re forgetting the other big carrier project: CVF. As it stands now, the CVF is meant to carry the Hawkeye 2000. Each CVF, around three including the French CdG follow-on, is to carry four Hawkeyes.

Hypothetically, if India was to be interested, it could lump its order with that of the CVF’s. That is if the H-2000 was even open to India and if India was interested and if the Gorshkov and ADS designs were able to accomodate at lease two H-2000s.

Below, I think, is one of the final CVF flight deck layouts:

And these are the supposed layouts of the Gorshkov and ADS, respectively:

Notice that all of the designs have a takeoff runway that can be the full lenght of the boat. The CVF is the extreme case. Just points to ponder. Incorporating the H-2000 onto the Indian carriers may not be impossible nor improbable.

I very much doubt a STOBAR ship of 250m can launch the E-2. with
just 3-4 max needed, LM has no incentive to come up with any fix to the
problem. They would do something only if the USN needed it.

With an eye to the future India & Russia should get together and design
a new steam capapult system and a associated non-nuclear steam plant
fed by energy bled off a CODAG/COGAG powerplant. Once the initial design is done it can be scaled up and improved as needs dictate.

otherwise Unkil has all the cards. and Unkil isnt out to help us much thats for sure.

wow, that would be interesting if they could get an E-2C off the Gorshkov, I imagine more powerful engines would be required to say the least. But even one E-2c would change the entire IN carrier situation in terms of cababilities.

Indian

Comeon mate, I hope that u did not get this in their INdian millitary watch section, that place is a joke, these appear to be just rumours, unless that powd cat story becomes true, no E-2cs will opetate from any IN carrier unless they are planning to use it as a land basedfill the gap type for the Phalcon.

as per Harry IN has a requirement of 8 E2Cs. Gruman supposedly will do studies on an AWACS getting launched from STOBAR arrangements. makes you wonder though……

Any IN Awacs would also have to operate from land, and E-2 possess no great advantage over the phalcon for india – its best IN get a couple Phalcons for their own use if they feel the need (!) .

IN supposedly wants a carrier borne capability. limiting the AWACS to land would seriously limit the CVBG too. altogether it would be an easier target to spot.

Compare the MiG-29K engines to the LCA N engine and tell me which one will be better in terms of twr, better loadout for the plane in question etc.

who knows! RD33MK is an unknown. Naval Kaveri post 2010 is an unknown. you can expect better relaibility/uptime/SFC/logistics from Kaveri.

Points well taken I just think that especially in case of emergencies a two engined plane makes more sense for a stobar carrier ops but I am willing to takeit all back and eat some crow soup like paffy did yesterday if someone can tell me this

Compare the MiG-29K engines to the LCA N engine and tell me which one will be better in terms of twr, better loadout for the plane in question etc.

I read a post on Pakdef yesterday quoted from some aviation mag that
LM is preparing materials to sell E-2 hawkeye to both India and Pak. it said
Pak would operate from ground and could choose used equipment but Indi a wanted new carrier qualified kit.

Doesnt make sense to me since E-2 is going nowhere fast without a catapult and neither AG or ADS will have a catapult. Any IN Awacs would also have to operate from land, and E-2 possess no great advantage over the phalcon for india – its best IN get a couple Phalcons for their own use if they feel the need (!) .

what i want or what i think will do best is a design already made be modified to the minimum to cater to the needs of the IN in the near future and in the distant future which means – CVF design is available which we can/cud have buy/bought along with the AJT deal. Else, what we need to do is to make the ADS atleast of the size that CVF and AG is so that the shortfall of the STOBAR design mainly the launch, recovry and deck space be eliminated to a great extend.

And again do you know if that will be the final CVF design? it is just an artist’s impressions. That design will need to be stabilized within +/-0.5 degs in 5/6 sea states if it will carry out successful combat ops. And with that kind of design it looks unlikely and a rather challenging feat. Furthermore that design works because JSF is a STOVL aircraft. it has no where near the landing run that a convention aircraft needs. thirdly if you want a sortie rate anywhere near a CATOBAR you will need to declutter the space even on the CVF design. Which means having an airwing considerably smaller than what can actually be put there. Fourth, the sortie rate is NOT the problem on either ADS or CVF. read my post again. the Achilles heel on both the designs is the lack of credible AWACS which renders the airwing almost useless in controlling battle space. even with a CVF design your sortie rates will be marginally better with conventional aircraft. you would have to extend the deck so much that the incurred costs will not be worth a marginally better sortie rate.

Again i feel afraid u r limiting ur vision with the blanket of the current geo-political situations.

so what CVs will PN be getting in the near future? what CVs is PLAN getting? what threats will PAF be able to merge in the near future? FC1 is the best they will manage and it neither stands upto Mig29MKI or NLCA in most categories. ADS was not designed with today’s policies in mind. it is being designed with the Navy’s doctrine for the future of having a considerable presence in IOR. Hence the need for at least 3 CVBGs roaming the seas. You can forget about a Nimitz size crew and mission role here. ADS won’t be much of a strike group either unless they somehow manage an AEW/C up there.

so is it actually be the NLCA which will make it to the ADS just for a national pride or its the Rafales just coz many don like Russian??

So it is just national pride because its a local plane and a local CV? i see. to make sure it is not national pride IN should stuff a foreign aircraft on it. good one. Rafale looks unlikely on ADS too. The Navy cannot absorb three different aircraft with three different sources. Two types is what the limit looks like. Mig29Ks and NLCAs. No rafales. Rafale is optimized for CATOBAR anyways.

anyway I wud not like to see the NLCA on it but if the Rafales cud get in at the MiG’s price it wud be good.

And why is that?

and yes longer length will take away the shortfall of the STOBAR and thats with an increased deck space, longer or same launch length but w/o obstructing the landing strip … y r u ignoring these points

Look above! It hardly matters if we marginally increase the deck length.

I sauy its worth the cost involved in modifying it, else it sud be only NLCA which it must operate.

Again look above. It is not worth it.

Its illogical not to have a longer length coz, coz it gives u the space for manuevrablity in deck sopace management if the carier has to operate a/c larger than NLCA

It is designed for NLCA so don’t worry about a different airwing! 32-40 or so NLCAs i would presume. Should they decide to put the Mig29s up there is anyone’s guess. But for now its an NLCA show

and I say an a/c carrier designed just on the basis of acomodating NLCA is not good for the future.

And again why?

if the even the first launch position can be cleared from the angle landing strip, i see no reason as to y STOBAR can’t have a simultaneous L and T/O … i don agree to that view by just taking into account earlier models of STOBAR.

There are engineering issues involved in such designs. First you need a clear view of all aircraft landing and taking off from the control tower. Many such designs don’t give you a clear view. Then there are stabilization issues. The deck cannot be too spread out. Then there are costs. Ever wondered why no one ever implemented such designs?

Abt the CATOBAR, yup the cvf don have irt now, but they have made provisoj for the same in the future which means thats its a design which will also cater to future needs with maybe minimal ‘work-outs’. If u want me to drop my fascination, yup i am ready for it any time , it cost me nothing, But my virew remains the same as far as Indian Navy’s carriers are concerned and what I think India needs to built for its future.

Again you always fail to link the future doctrines with your wish list. can you explain what you mean by future? You never mention anything. just the fact that you don’t like STOBARs. Well neither do I but the navy cannot afford CATOBARs. and what you are suggesting in STOBAR arrangements doesn’t really work out.

don u think 36 MiG-29K’s can be fitted on to a CVF design???….

If it’s a 60000 ton CV then yeah sure. You can fit more.

But for IN that 16 helos or to be more precise 10 helos needs not have to be there as the CBG will have 8-10 ships and whcih means that nearly 16-20 helos are at the disposal for ASW and other roles.So that space is utilized by the fixed wingers …

true. I do not think ASW helos will be in any numbers on ADS. We are possible looking at 32-40 NLCAs plus 6 or so AEWs (or by some miracle a couple of AEW/Cs) plus two or SAR and a couple ASW if they wish.

I’d like to put that as selecting the Su-27’s over the MiG-29K’s …though these two cases have a bit more wider space in btn them , but the other case just has got politics involved and nothing else.

Su27 and Mig29Ks have no relation. Do you mean Su33D and Mig29K or do you mean Su27 and Mig29C/S?

still am not happy with it, but no way i though of putting flankers on it but yup MiG-29K wud have been the choice and hopefully the earlier drawings/model of the ADS showed some 13 MiG-29K’s on the deck.

Earlier on there were doubts if IN will ever get NLCAs. And mind explaining why you would choose Mig29K or NLCA? NLCA seems to be technologically better off, offer lower operational costs, better modularity and logistical support and can carry a decent load of AG/AS weaponry. It won’t be as long ranged granted but if coupled with an AEW/C we easily have a far better utilized airwing.

but i absolutely don understand as to y u guys simply don understand the underlying diplomacy and etc etc that has its hands in every deal

Yes everyone here understands diplomacy and how arms deals have political connections. But that doesn’t matter here. No one is here to discuss the politics of arms sales. We are only here to discuss the arms themselves. What they offer and what they don’t.

and u don think the so calles sweetning of the US and UK arese by the Indian Govt has anything to do with improving relation even at the cost of national pride and honour??

Self reliance is much more important here. and anyone with enough engineering base is doing it. the Russians, Chinese, French, Germans, Sweds, Jews etc. whatever makes you think that getting a CVF design will get India a UNSC seat is beyond me. there are other ways to win support. Mainly economically. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of destroying your own industrial base and potential. Especially when later on you are making stuff that can contest the world’s finest.

the gurl next to me is pondering and peeping/watching as to what this crazy fellow is doing with already 3 cups of coffee and some simles on the face, anyway she is pretty , but seems like pretty busy helping her firend out, seems like a very helpful person

😀

I agree with Blackcat on one thing, I don’t like the NLCA either, no one engined plane belongs on a carrier for obvious reasons, f they make a two engined NLCA fine but that is unlikely.

That’s contradictory to what we are seeing lately. With newer technology single engined aircraft are just as reliable. besides they come with obvious advantages like lower operational costs, better fuel efficiency etc.

the JSF-N is also a one engined plane. Things have come a long way in engine reliability. the Super Etendard has one
engine. so does the Harrier.

Why?

I agree with Blackcat on one thing, I don’t like the NLCA either, no one engined plane belongs on a carrier for obvious reasons, f they make a two engined NLCA fine but that is unlikely.

Wolverine tis ok yar blackcat is just on the extreme of things, he is a nice fellow at heart, he jsut has these wacky ideas but we are happy to have him on the team. 🙂

Hi team mate, nice to meet u, where are our other team members 😀

Why? ADS already is pretty similar to AG. And why does the ADS need to be a 60000ton CV? Mind explaining which part of the world IN is going to be fitting in? Which other navy challenges IN in the IOR?

oh no, i did not measn ads has to be 60,000 tonne, it has to be in dimensions …. i know my wording are sometimes very confusing… let me clear it to u that, what i want or what i think will do best is a design already made be modified to the minimum to cater to the needs of the IN in the near future and in the distant future which means – CVF design is available which we can/cud have buy/bought along with the AJT deal. Else, what we need to do is to make the ADS atleast of the size that CVF and AG is so that the shortfall of the STOBAR design mainly the launch, recovry and deck space be eliminated to a great extend. Again i feel afraid u r limiting ur vision with the blanket of the current geo-political situations.

and why again? when the design works and TO and L runs are sufficient for the aircraft it will operate there is no point in making the project even more expensive. it is rather illogical to have a longer deck just because you like it. when it works it is fine. a longer waterline or length wont take away the disadvantages of a STOBAR arrangement.

so is it actually be the NLCA which will make it to the ADS just for a national pride or its the Rafales just coz many don like Russian??…anyway I wud not like to see the NLCA on it but if the Rafales cud get in at the MiG’s price it wud be good. and let me ask you, Y is the project getting colslier??… if we can analyse the sub-contracts that ADS has we may be able to round up what all makes it costly which from the said value of Rs2000 crore don look much costly either….. and yes longer length will take away the shortfall of the STOBAR and thats with an increased deck space, longer or same launch length but w/o obstructing the landing strip … y r u ignoring these points, I sauy its worth the cost involved in modifying it, else it sud be only NLCA which it must operate. Its illogical not to have a longer length coz, coz it gives u the space for manuevrablity in deck sopace management if the carier has to operate a/c larger than NLCA, and I say an a/c carrier designed just on the basis of acomodating NLCA is not good for the future.

and you know this because you know the final dimensions and layout of the CVF? it is not even clear if the CVFs will be smaller 20-30 ton or bigger 60 ton CVs. it is not clear if they will be CATOBAR, STOBAR, CTOL or STVOL.

nope, am telling that from the known figures of the speculated designs, it does not matter if CVF is 20-30 tonnes or not, what i want is the Indian Navy to have a carier which can accomodte its future needs. and that said the I believe IN has catered to ADS (speculated size) coz of the all round constarints thats been imposed on them.

CATOBAR is a distinct possibility and no one should be putting too much hope on it.

I agree, but there still is possiblity, else i don see as to y the bow needs to add weight to the ship with its wider base than whats required for a simple ski-jump.

need is the mother in invention. when there is no need for it they wont go ahead with it. very simple.

yup thats my favorite quote 😀 …. and the current ADS is just coz of that – IN needed a carrier but, the all-round constraints on them they modified their plans to contain itself to the speculated ADS.

erm its a STOBAR. simultaneous landings and TO are not really possible. the JSF that RN chose is the STOVL variant. it doesn’t have too many landing hassles to deal with as opposed to arrested recovery aircraft. one could decide to make what you are wishing for but the airwing would be too small for a CV that size and it would be hugely expensive. in other words it will not be worth the value N is paying for. with potential adversaries in no good shape a STOBAR with a capable air wing works. a low sortie rate is not the biggest problem. the lack of credible AWACS is. and the CVF does not address that unless a CATOBAR system is adopted. so it hardly matters.
drop your fascination with an extended deck. it hardly does much as far as operationality goes.

I don agree to that, if the even the first launch position can be cleared from the angle landing strip, i see no reason as to y STOBAR can’t have a simultaneous L and T/O … i don agree to that view by just taking into account earlier models of STOBAR. But that said, adversariers change at their time and choosing and not with ours and when that happen IN sud not be caught with its pants down. Abt the CATOBAR, yup the cvf don have irt now, but they have made provisoj for the same in the future which means thats its a design which will also cater to future needs with maybe minimal ‘work-outs’. If u want me to drop my fascination, yup i am ready for it any time , it cost me nothing, But my virew remains the same as far as Indian Navy’s carriers are concerned and what I think India needs to built for its future.

good luck with trying to fit 36 Migs on it. and if you can somehow do it you wont get 16 helos onboard. an LCA air wing might be possible.

Yup thanks. don u think 36 MiG-29K’s can be fitted on to a CVF design???…. and yup all that figures was that so-called perfect wing for that size. But for IN that 16 helos or to be more precise 10 helos needs not have to be there as the CBG will have 8-10 ships and whcih means that nearly 16-20 helos are at the disposal for ASW and other roles.So that space is utilized by the fixed wingers …

I didn’t say if it would make it or not. i said it is no where near finalized.

k, whatever it is, I don mind

Yeah good one! We should just take a rejected design and put an air wing on it that the CVF designers didn’t think about!

I’d like to put that as selecting the Su-27’s over the MiG-29K’s …though these two cases have a bit more wider space in btn them , but the other case just has got politics involved and nothing else.

ROLF! i am still think if I should bother replying to this one or not………

whats ROLF … maybe arthur can educate me with some of his own txt messages and admin’s mission of some literacy in this forum as has been adviced to me also:D

but that said, I’d love to chat with any Indian on that especially if anyone thinks it like the outsiders want all Indians to think and see. But u can put ur points on that, I’d be only be glad to take ur points. tks

Will you quit this issue already? ADS is designed for NLCA. And for that it works fine. Whatever makes you think they are putting migs or flankers in it like Keiv has to is beyond me.

well if its NLCA , then Ok …. still am not happy with it, but no way i though of putting flankers on it but yup MiG-29K wud have been the choice and hopefully the earlier drawings/model of the ADS showed some 13 MiG-29K’s on the deck.

and this is why people don’t like discussing anything with you. you blabber to much on your own little theories. keep it to naval discussions. I don’t want to get into drivel here. First you claim CVF is good for navy and then you somehow manage to relate it to UNSC.
You waste too much time writing unrelated material. keep it in context if you want to be taken seriously.

yup, but I simply don mind, k many are my theories but i don cook up my theories w/o a base, but i absolutely don understand as to y u guys simply don understand the underlying diplomacy and etc etc that has its hands in every deal … and u don think the so calles sweetning of the US and UK arese by the Indian Govt has anything to do with improving relation even at the cost of national pride and honour??…. I wonder if these guys who talk abt friendly matches and otherdo the same in their personal lifes. If their neighbour was to have caused trouble in his home, he might not even let his kids speak or plauy with the other party and thats how many of these guys are but when it comes to the nation’s honour – Kya cheez hai Yeh
….. and yeah again blabbering and wasting of time, but sorry yaar, i cant help …. the gurl next to me is pondering and peeping/watching as to what this crazy fellow is doing with already 3 cups of coffee and some simles on the face, anyway she is pretty 😉 , but seems like pretty busy helping her firend out, seems like a very helpful person 😎

the ADS is being designed from ground up as a fixed wing carrier. It probably wont carry the Mig29K. it will carry the NLCA so the 252m length works out. Should they decide to change the length later on is anyone’s guess. the hanger space will also be much better designed and utilized the aircraft should be able to move quicker to and from the deck. And angling of the deck is also slightly better to decrease the time between TOs and Ls.

ok if thats it , let it be, I’d only be happy to have a carrier which can cater to the future demands and varying needs of the IN (as that will definetely vary with geopolitics)…. but plz do let me know abt the operational capablity that u can see with 252 meter and 30 NLCA(?) and others

anyway , tks for being good, and talking to me as to what other don like discussing with me

Wolverine tis ok yar blackcat is just on the extreme of things, he is a nice fellow at heart, he jsut has these wacky ideas but we are happy to have him on the team. 🙂

ofcourse not, every nation don have the need of that 90,000 ton disp and considering the reality of Indian situation is what I am arguing for an ADS which matches the AG or CVF

Why? ADS already is pretty similar to AG. And why does the ADS need to be a 60000ton CV? Mind explaining which part of the world IN is going to be fitting in? Which other navy challenges IN in the IOR?

Since it is being designed from bottom up as a carrier there has to be more hanger space BUT the length is still less than the CDG and I am contesting that dimension, and how much will I be able to expect from a hanger (is it full length like?) which don have it’s waterline dimension even to that of the AG (?) and the least that I’d like to see is the overhangs like that of the CDG

and why again? when the design works and TO and L runs are sufficient for the aircraft it will operate there is no point in making the project even more expensive. it is rather illogical to have a longer deck just because you like it. when it works it is fine. a longer waterline or length wont take away the disadvantages of a STOBAR arrangement.

but overall the CVF is a well balanced one and perfect for its size and I’d only love the ADS to be like that

and you know this because you know the final dimensions and layout of the CVF? it is not even clear if the CVFs will be smaller 20-30 ton or bigger 60 ton CVs. it is not clear if they will be CATOBAR, STOBAR, CTOL or STVOL.

from the drawings seen till now, the ADS do have similarity with the CVF in the ski-jump with its ski-jump base having the most similarity which makes me feel that the designers might have though abt a future catapult coz of which the bow is much broader than what is required for the ski-jump.

CATOBAR is a distinct possibility and no one should be putting too much hope on it.

What ADS needs is a bit more of stretching to make it in the size of AG and CVF but I hope the IN can make it

need is the mother in invention. when there is no need for it they wont go ahead with it. very simple.

and if not be able to have the decent STO length on the decks, and by going the way of the Gorshkov bashers, I pretty well don see how ADS wud be able to launch and recover a/c simultaneously where as a Chubby AG aka CVF design (not that CVF is inspired from AG, but surely has got its inspiration from K and U) pretty well can make for that coz of its wast deck.

erm its a STOBAR. simultaneous landings and TO are not really possible. the JSF that RN chose is the STOVL variant. it doesn’t have too many landing hassles to deal with as opposed to arrested recovery aircraft. one could decide to make what you are wishing for but the airwing would be too small for a CV that size and it would be hugely expensive. in other words it will not be worth the value N is paying for. with potential adversaries in no good shape a STOBAR with a capable air wing works. a low sortie rate is not the biggest problem. the lack of credible AWACS is. and the CVF does not address that unless a CATOBAR system is adopted. so it hardly matters.
drop your fascination with an extended deck. it hardly does much as far as operationality goes.

That 50 a/c combo for me is for 2 squadrons of fixed winged and others also considering a future option or to be more precise, its like –
2 x 16 (+2) = 36 x MiG-29MKI
6 x Ka-31 Or 4 x Yak-44 AEW
8-10 x Ka-29 (again for max utilization of space)

And that pretty much make ~ 50 a/c combo carrier air-wing.

good luck with trying to fit 36 Migs on it. and if you can somehow do it you wont get 16 helos onboard. an LCA air wing might be possible.

and r u sure it wont make it to the CVF design??

I didn’t say if it would make it or not. i said it is no where near finalized.

if ur sure, then I got my case more strong, as the bargaining power entirely shifts to my side when dealing a REJECTED design.

Yeah good one! We should just take a rejected design and put an air wing on it that the CVF designers didn’t think about!

How much do you want ???…. $15 billion or 20 Billion??? …….. we got some USELESS $120Billion as Forex Reserve which is of no active use to the nation!

ROLF! i am still think if I should bother replying to this one or not………

I’d only love to see it as the perfect carrier for its size, but that don look that way unless the MiG-29’s is replaced with the LCA which again mean that the range and effectiveness is decreased, and I pray and hope that it don get limited to 252 meters as is said now. My fascination abt kiev??……its for its dimensions and that is its length for a STOBAR and its waterline width.

Will you quit this issue already? ADS is designed for NLCA. And for that it works fine. Whatever makes you think they are putting migs or flankers in it like Keiv has to is beyond me.

I am afraid, u r displaying the same mentality that the Indian MOD and Indian Buffoons eeeerrrrr politicians display. Do u see any commonality between British AJT and a seat for UNSC seat?? Or the AJT and a much better diplomatic relations? Or Westland helos and an International Loan? Or the S-300 and the Korean National security even though it’s the best AD system available?? Or US Counter battery radars and bettering of relation Or the 50 a/c deal that was to go to Airbus being splitted between Airbus and Boeing to US relations ??? Or the first huge Airbus dashing into the Indian civilian market to the Fall of the Soviet Union even though the Tupolev and Ilyushin (and Yak)was the one going to come in.

and this is why people don’t like discussing anything with you. you blabber to much on your own little theories. keep it to naval discussions. I don’t want to get into drivel here. First you claim CVF is good for navy and then you somehow manage to relate it to UNSC.
You waste too much time writing unrelated material. keep it in context if you want to be taken seriously.

And u mentioned the sortie rates higher than AG, can u explain me that. At said 252 meters, its much shorter than the AG, which means that maybe the ‘lighter’ take off position too cud be obstructing the landing strip, a thing that AG was criticized with.

the ADS is being designed from ground up as a fixed wing carrier. It probably wont carry the Mig29K. it will carry the NLCA so the 252m length works out. Should they decide to change the length later on is anyone’s guess. the hanger space will also be much better designed and utilized the aircraft should be able to move quicker to and from the deck. And angling of the deck is also slightly better to decrease the time between TOs and Ls.

Blackcat

Forex reserves are not as simple as u may think they are, we cannot just take out 10Bn tomrrow, it does not work like this, besides the forex is there to make sure the combined state and central deficit dont cause an Argentina on us. Its insurance and u don’t mess with that money! Besides you cannot just withdraw that money just like that.

every navy would love to get its hands on a 90000 ton displ. CVN too. whats your point? CVs are expensive business.

ofcourse not, every nation don have the need of that 90,000 ton disp and considering the reality of Indian situation is what I am arguing for an ADS which matches the AG or CVF in its dimensions and yup these are expensive business but I wonder if anyone fall ill or broke a hand or leg , if the money spend wud be the first concern and put it above ones own body or to get back to a healthy note.

ADS would end up being a far better designed carrier than AG ever was. ADS si being designed from ground up as a fixed wing carrier. despite being smaller it will end up having a larger airwing. so hanger space is not an issue.

Of course yeas , and it has to be like that’s, iof not there just is no point in making an ADS which don even have the capability of the AG. Since it is being designed from bottom up as a carrier there has to be more hanger space BUT the length is still less than the CDG and I am contesting that dimension, and how much will I be able to expect from a hanger (is it full length like?) which don have it’s waterline dimension even to that of the AG (?) and the least that I’d like to see is the overhangs like that of the CDG, but overall the CVF is a well balanced one and perfect for its size and I’d only love the ADS to be like that, from the drawings seen till now, the ADS do have similarity with the CVF in the ski-jump with its ski-jump base having the most similarity which makes me feel that the designers might have though abt a future catapult coz of which the bow is much broader than what is required for the ski-jump.

What ADS needs is a bit more of stretching to make it in the size of AG and CVF but I hope the IN can make it and if not be able to have the decent STO length on the decks, and by going the way of the Gorshkov bashers, I pretty well don see how ADS wud be able to launch and recover a/c simultaneously where as a Chubby AG aka CVF design (not that CVF is inspired from AG, but surely has got its inspiration from K and U) pretty well can make for that coz of its wast deck.

rather hard to stuf 50 a/c on a 45000 ton displacement CV. not to mention the helos.

That 50 a/c combo for me is for 2 squadrons of fixed winged and others also considering a future option or to be more precise, its like –
2 x 16 (+2) = 36 x MiG-29MKI
6 x Ka-31 Or 4 x Yak-44 AEW
8-10 x Ka-29 (again for max utilization of space)

And that pretty much make ~ 50 a/c combo carrier air-wing.

who told you that pic was the final version of CVF?

and r u sure it wont make it to the CVF design??… if ur sure, then I got my case more strong, as the bargaining power entirely shifts to my side when dealing a REJECTED design. Else British Govt and Thales wud love to squeeze out more bugs from the Indian Navy. But that said I’d only love that design to be the British CVF simply coz it has got its acts together and wud love to see that beauty in future and also hope the RN makes it as their final design.

you come up with the money and i am sure the “damn idiots” will be more than happy to comply to your wishes.

How much do you want ???…. $15 billion or 20 Billion??? …….. we got some USELESS $120Billion as Forex Reserve which is of no active use to the nation! …. And am a strong supporter of Using it up and 10-20 Billion is not gonna make a dent on the Indian economy. Or that Forex reserve don make a $hit except in the war time as many argue w/o knowing even the basic facts. But have they really though how that reserves come into play???….. or why is it like the way it is now??….. again that is the GODLY ADVICE … that reserves started soaring up coz Indian Govt keeps the INDIAN RUPEE devalued and for making that devaluation RBI pulls up all the dollars that circulate and that has not got accumulated to the TUNE of $120billion with the rupee trading even in this OIL budget at nearly 48 to a Dollar. Which means that for the thousands and thousands of Indian rupees pumped don make a mark coz the rupee don have value and the VALUE that’s accumulated as reserve still remain useless. Now if it was the other way round with Rupee gaining value against the dollar, the entire import bill will shrink, which means that India get a major purchasing power and the very first impact in positive will be on the defence forces which also was the first one to get affected when the damn ____ devalued the Indian Rupee which in one go made the forces to starve for funds even though the defence Budget on the paper looked to remain same from the earlier years or at times seemed to increase, but in reality, that budget was buying too little to even fill in the stomach!

So the money isn’t a problem if u got the will, and have u ever though abt what $10-20 billion wud mean for an Indian Naval expansion??…. well I do and always do and that dreaming costs me nothing other than hardening my hatred for all the $astards, but those who scripted the chapter for this part of the world exactly knew what that meant for IOR , but not any worthless $astards who have ruled and ruined India.

the ADS is a perfect carrier for its size and is being designed from ground up as a fixed winger. what’s your fascination with Keiv? from a modularity and logistics POV ADS works better than anything else for the IN.

I’d only love to see it as the perfect carrier for its size, but that don look that way unless the MiG-29’s is replaced with the LCA which again mean that the range and effectiveness is decreased, and I pray and hope that it don get limited to 252 meters as is said now. My fascination abt kiev??……its for its dimensions and that is its length for a STOBAR and its waterline width. And when I said that ’spicing up’, it means a carrier which is of AG’s overall length but more chubbier with good waterline width and length so that hanger is that much accommodative and not the design of the Kiev as such.. But whatever it is I want that damn 252 meters to be increased to the size of Gorshkov. Hopefully u know that even the CGD underwent an increase in its deck length even though it was a CATOBAR and the ADS in its initial avatar is a STOBAR, so I think there might pose some problem

yes. and ofcourse CVs and AJTs have so much in common……………….

I am afraid, u r displaying the same mentality that the Indian MOD and Indian Buffoons eeeerrrrr politicians display. Do u see any commonality between British AJT and a seat for UNSC seat?? Or the AJT and a much better diplomatic relations? Or Westland helos and an International Loan? Or the S-300 and the Korean National security even though it’s the best AD system available?? Or US Counter battery radars and bettering of relation Or the 50 a/c deal that was to go to Airbus being splitted between Airbus and Boeing to US relations ??? Or the first huge Airbus dashing into the Indian civilian market to the Fall of the Soviet Union even though the Tupolev and Ilyushin (and Yak)was the one going to come in.

There are many cases which don have any relations as such but still is bounded and that bounding is what Indians need to understand and integrate it when dealing. Now u must be very well knowing India’s national carrier Air India makes Loss, and at the same time the British Airways heaps up its turnings. But its another fact that the British cleverness and their will made a deal long b4 making the AI to give up major of its seats to the British Airways and what AI do is just wait for customers etc etc ……. There are many such damn things, to overcome which what one needs more than anything else is a sense of Duty to see to it that u do ur part in the nation’s progress whatever ur field maybe. This is sorely lacking in the political hierarchy and the so-called ‘modern’ youths, who is unfortunately gonna be the citizens with whom rests the reins of the nation.

Coming back to the CVF and AJT , the CVF is a British one and so is the AJT and that makes a big relations between them. Let me say, I got 3 kids and I’m making a deal for one of them to makes his flying skill better, and got another one who is very modest and far thinking but his interests lies in open seas but limits him selves taking my financial health into account. But for the aviator Kid am gonna buy a big ticket kit from a manufacturer who has got a sister company who has got a good design which wud make my other Kid to have his needs fulfilled to his own present and future satisfaction. So what do I do??…. I’ll after seeing this fact (after realizing and analyzing my Kids needs) wud bind these two together as a package and make a deal at the same price as was for the single deal that I made earlier. I leave the option to the head of these two concerns to sort it out btn them as to binding of the same with the condition that no binding at the same price or with negligible price adjustment, the talked abt deal is a closed chapter. And they got just a single option where as for me there are a couple of more option to choose from which will also cost me less. But I’d be the winner only if I really cared for my all kids and understood their needs.

considering all factors it is a far better design than AG. will probabaly end up have far better sortie rates compared to AG. and when 252 meters is enough then they dont need to extend it just for the sake of it. yuor arguement is basically that ADS should look like AG or CVF. sorry but this reasoning dosent hold much water.

it has to be a good one than AG else there is no point in it. And u mentioned the sortie rates higher than AG, can u explain me that. At said 252 meters, its much shorter than the AG, which means that maybe the ‘lighter’ take off position too cud be obstructing the landing strip, a thing that AG was critized with. My argument is not abt the looks, Looks are just the overall word that I used and what the LOOKS that I means has its ingredients – the ship must be chubbier that AG, shud have more waterline width and length, an overall length in the range of what the modified AG and CVF will have and displaces 45,000+ tonne with a capacity to carry a max of ~50 a/c …. Hope u understand my reasoning, its just not abt the Looks as such as u have mistaken it to be.

maybe after that trans continental UCAVs will be commonplace but not before.

That might not be as far away as one would think. The Global Hawk has crossed an ocean already non-stop. Give it a couple of mini-cruise missiles, and hey presto you might have the beginings of a new long range aviation era.