Indian Air Force – Boulton Paul Defiants

Indian Defiants post Independance

The official IAF serials list post Aug 47 does not list any Defiant in the entire A-Z serials alloted.

‘The Turret Fighters’ Defiant and Roc by Alec Brew. Published by Crowood. Mentions the four Egyptian Defiants as u/s in 1947. I quote the authors words on the IAF Defiants. ( Other Defiant target tugs were still in use when the Indian Air Force was formed, and may well have been the last Defiants to fly.) I know this has been mentioned before in the interesting contributions made to the thread. But this book is an informative and well illustrated work covering all aspects of the Defiant and Roc.

im fascinated by all this talk about WW2 airframes in india i bet its a gold mine

One year since the last reply! happy anniversary… :diablo:

But seriously , I found the information from Colin Cummings “PRice of Peace” on the last Defiant accident in the RAF.

30-Nov-1945 Defiant Mk.1 AA404 of No.22AACU (RIAF) was belly landed at Vizagapatam after a hydraulic failure. Colin also puts in a note saying this is the last recorded Defiant accident in the RAF service.

However the same is missing from JJ Halleys Broken Wings.

Have a doubt. I have gone thru Colin Cummings Accidnets book also JJ Halleys Broken wings. there does not seem to be one Defiant Accident after October 1945, either with the RAF or the RIAF or any other wing. So is it safe to assume that the Defiants were withdrawn before that date or stopped flying around end of 45? When wold the last Defiant sortie in RAF be?

Indian Defiants.

IIRC, there was a nice photo on the web of an Indian sub-continent based Defiant. D@mned if I can find it now. I’ll have a look. It wasn’t in the IAF, but RAF operated. Of course as it may have replaced the IAF Lysanders in the TT Role, the Defiants may have co-operated with IAF aircraft, and been flown by IAF crews from Hurricanes etc.

Cheers

Oh please , please find it whenever you have the time! Maybe this profile above was made from that image?

Off the topic, and this one related to Hurricanes

I am also trying to find out the original source photograph that resulted in this oft seen profile/model.. anyone recollect seeing this one from an original War time photo?

Indian Defiants.

IIRC, there was a nice photo on the web of an Indian sub-continent based Defiant. D@mned if I can find it now. I’ll have a look. It wasn’t in the IAF, but RAF operated. Of course as it may have replaced the IAF Lysanders in the TT Role, the Defiants may have co-operated with IAF aircraft, and been flown by IAF crews from Hurricanes etc.

Cheers

PA908

PR XI were definately operated by the IAF, When I reskinned part of PA980 for the museum at Wright-Patt I took home the bullet riddled fuselage sides that plainly showed IAF roundels & serials #’s.
For a while both of them were screwed to the ceiling of a local bar until a change of ownership saw one of them stolen & apparently sold off on Ebay, as were the semi crushed valve covers (wonder who’s got that stuff now?)
The other side is still there, but I hear of another change of ownership so that will be returning to my garage along with a stack of A26 & R2800 parts etc.

..and I wonder if you can remember those serial numbers?

I think that the IAF only used this machine for ground instructional purposes.

It had Indian roundels from its time as a ‘Gate Guardian’ at IAF Poona/Pune.

Mark

PR XI were definately operated by the IAF, When I reskinned part of PA980 for the museum at Wright-Patt I took home the bullet riddled fuselage sides that plainly showed IAF roundels & serials #’s.
For a while both of them were screwed to the ceiling of a local bar until a change of ownership saw one of them stolen & apparently sold off on Ebay, as were the semi crushed valve covers (wonder who’s got that stuff now?)
The other side is still there, but I hear of another change of ownership so that will be returning to my garage along with a stack of A26 & R2800 parts etc.

So if a Bf-109E and Hurricane can be found in India, what else is out there?? Truly interesting!

Well DH9s for a start! Still think they were a fantastic find, very Indiana Jones……reminds me of the Alexi Sayle role in The Last Crusade when he’s offered a crate of jewels…’ahhh Rolls Royce Phantom II and I even like the colour…!’
TT

Finally a Defiant in SEAC Colors. If these made it to the Far East, surely the IAF ones must have looked like this!

Geoff, thanks a heap for the Battle information – this is great stuff. Again I notice the references to 22 AACU. But cant really figure out why it would be RIAF.

Jagan

Answering my own question.

No 1 Air Gunnery School (India) – AA371 SOC 1-1-47?, AA401 SOC 30-11-44, AA470 SOC 1-1-47?, AA499 SOC 30-11-44, AA511 SOC 30-11-44, AA531 SOC 30-11-44, AA575 SOC 30-11-44, AA587 SOC 30-6-44, AA614 SOC 4-12-44, AA618 SOC 30-11-44.

The above is what Geoff has posted. The Official WW2 RIAF History lists the No.1 Air Gunnery School as one of the Training Establishments under its purview. The AGS operated out of Bairagarh, Bhopal and provided training to Air gunners at the Initial Training Stage. Perhaps to route these crew members to two Vengeance units? So if the Defiant served with the AGS, then it was ‘officially’ with the IAF.

Now can anyone go to Bhopal, tour the airfield, the colleges, the cantonments and find us a Defiant 😉

Geoff, thanks a heap for the Battle information – this is great stuff. Again I notice the references to 22 AACU. But cant really figure out why it would be RIAF.

Jagan

Re 15 Sqd. IAF in Spitfire International – now here is a revelation I had not spotted before.
Formed 20th August 1951 at Ambala with Spitfire PR.XI.
Disbanded January 1953.
Commanding Officer S/Ldr EJ Dhatigara 20.6.51 to 1.53

Did some reading and checking of notes. No.15 Squadron is significant because it was re-numbered in Jan 53 and it became No.1 Squadron under S/L Dhatighara. All its Spitfires became No.1 Squadron overnight. But we dont hear of No.1 operating the PRXI anywhere ..

the 60th Anniv booklet on No.1 Squadron has some history of No.15 from its raising to its renumbering to No.1. and it says the Squadron was raised on Mk XVIIIs. It also has a photograph of Air Commodore Arjan Singh visiting No.15 Squadron with Dhati showing him around and It shows a MkXVIII in the background.

(incidentally Air Marshal Dhatighara lives in Pune, but sadly, he is extremely reluctant to talk about his airforce days)

The Ambala history booklet cursorly mentions that No.14 and No.15 Squadrons were raised on the Mk XVIIIs. and also adds ‘Spitfires left behind by No.1 Air Force Academy (which has moved south ) which were unserviceable and AOG were refurbished and distributed equally between the two units. It does not mention the mark.

So did No.15 Squadron really operate the PRXI? Lets ask Mr. Terbeck?

Thats my belief too.. the PAF did not take any Spitfires as per ‘official’ history. Also the lack of any photographs of Spitfires that do not show PAF Markings seem to support that conclusion. I am interested to know about the source of that side view illustrations

I also notice that reg the PRXI, Polly writes No.15 Squadron, which is only a Post 1949 raising. will have to get him to check the source for that. what does Spitfire International say about that?

Jagan,

I cannot recall precise details of the PAK AF book. I seem to remember it was large and expensive and with just this minimal Spitfire content, I passed it over.

Re 15 Sqd. IAF in Spitfire International – now here is a revelation I had not spotted before.

Formed 20th August 1951 at Ambala with Spitfire PR.XI.

Disbanded January 1953.

Commanding Officer S/Ldr EJ Dhatigara 20.6.51 to 1.53

I think the serial in the 6 Sqd. shot, in the light of Spitfire International, is PL997.

Mark

Flood,

‘The Defiant File’ lists units that the Defiant served with, and gives the s/n of the aircraft that served with that unit, but there is no list or definative mentioning of the air forces that the Defiant served with other than the RAF.

The Egyptian AF Defiants are mentioned briefly ‘ …and in 1949, during the Arab-Israeli War, the Royal Egyptian Air Force had a target tug flight on strength equipped with four Defiants (unservicable).’

I can tell you that DR944 & DR945 were used by the USAAF. The relevant section of DR944’s entry reads – ‘deld to 46 MU 9.8.42; USAAF Bovingdon (no 11 CCRC) 1.9.42; 10 MU 7.7.44.’ That for DR945 has ‘deld to 46 MU 9.8.42; USAAF Bovingdon (No 11 CCRC) 1.9.42 coded JW-U; to RN charge at 10 MU 12.12.44.’ ‘The Defiant File’ even has a photo of DR945 complete with Stars & bars.

Jagan,

Regarding the Fairey Battle in Indian service, ‘The Battle File’ does list exports, which includes the following ‘One Battle and three Battle TT target tugs were sent to India in 1942 and were used for target towing duties at the Anti-aircraft School at Karachi. The Battle was K7627, and the Battle TTs were L5661, L5663, and L5726.’

The entry for K7627 reads’ 63 sqn 12.12.37; 12 ERFTS 5.1.39; 15 FTS 4.9.39; 1 FTS 26.10.39; undercarriage collapsed after landing Netheravon, 16.4.41; ROS; Rosenfield 30.3.42; 9 MU 1.7.42; 18 MU 22.7.42; 215 MU 7.8.42; EO Glasgow 11.8.42; to SAAF 11.8.42; to India 30.1.43.’

That for L5661 reads ‘4 BGS 13.5.40; Rosenfield 10.11.41; 18 MU 23.3.42; 215 MU 31.5.42; EO Glasgow 10.8.42; to SAAF 18.8.42 as 1062; to India 30.1.43; 22 AACU. Undercarriage collapsed on landing Drigh Road 3.3.44.’

That for L5663 goes ‘2 AACU 18.5.40; undercarriage collapsed on landing Cleave, 11.12.40; ROS; overshot landing, swung and hit obstacle, St Eval, 13.1.41; Fairey 3.3.41; 7 BGS 8.6.41; 38 MU at 31.12.41; 2 AACU 27.3.42; LEP 28.3.42; 1 PATP 23.5.42; to SAAF 30.6.42; to India 1.12.42.’

And finaly L5726 ‘4 BGS 21.6.40; 4 AOS at 31.12.42; Rosenfield 17.1.42; 27 MU 1.5.42; 215 MU 23.5.42; Rosenfield 4.6.42; 3 PATP 23.6.42; to SAAF 19.7.42 as 1058; to India 2.11.42; 22 AACU, fumes entered cockpit, bellylanded near Drigh Road, 19.2.43.’

Geoff.

In a similar vein I have seen side view illustrations in a book on the Pakistan Air Force showing a MkXIV/XVIII in full Pak markings. At the time of the separation and division of 1947 it was my belief that the PAF took Tempests but no Spitfires. Anybody care to comment?

Thats my belief too.. the PAF did not take any Spitfires as per ‘official’ history. Also the lack of any photographs of Spitfires that do not show PAF Markings seem to support that conclusion. I am interested to know about the source of that side view illustrations

I also notice that reg the PRXI, Polly writes No.15 Squadron, which is only a Post 1949 raising. will have to get him to check the source for that. what does Spitfire International say about that?

The Indian Air force had a number of PR XIs – according to this article
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Aircraft/Spitfire.html

An excerpt
“This was the unpressurized version of the PR Mk X version. A Merlin 63A replaced the Merlin 77. Total 471 produced. The only IAF units to operate the type were Nos 6, 7 and 15 Squadrons, No 15 being raised on the type in Aug 51. Ex RAF serials of this type were in the MB, PA and PL series with a few Mk VIIIe sharing the PA letters.”

There is a picture of an Indian Air Force PR XI here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Images/Spit-6Sqn.jpg besides in the previous link.

Anandeep Singh Pannu

Anandeep

I had seen the Polly Singh web page some time back and been mildly amused at the number of my personal photographs that he had ‘copyright’ protected. 🙂

Attached is a fuller shot of the RIAF PR XI dating it to 1946.

I think we must make the distinction here of usage pre or post the 1947 separation.

The point I was trying to make was that despite ‘official’ histories not recording the use of various types and marks of aircraft in the IAF post 1947, they were clearly on strength, albeit perhaps in ground instructional roles. So why not the Defiant?

In a similar vein I have seen side view illustrations in a book on the Pakistan Air Force showing a MkXIV/XVIII in full Pak markings. At the time of the separation and division of 1947 it was my belief that the PAF took Tempests but no Spitfires. Anybody care to comment?

Mark

Spitfire PR XI

The Indian Air force had a number of PR XIs – according to this article
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Aircraft/Spitfire.html

An excerpt
“This was the unpressurized version of the PR Mk X version. A Merlin 63A replaced the Merlin 77. Total 471 produced. The only IAF units to operate the type were Nos 6, 7 and 15 Squadrons, No 15 being raised on the type in Aug 51. Ex RAF serials of this type were in the MB, PA and PL series with a few Mk VIIIe sharing the PA letters.”

There is a picture of an Indian Air Force PR XI here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Images/Spit-6Sqn.jpg besides in the previous link.

Anandeep Singh Pannu

I think it is record that the Indian Air Force did not operate the Spitfire PR XI.

That said an example was on static display at Poona Air Force Base in 1984 prior to being put up for tender and sold to a Canadian syndicate.

So why not a Defiant?

Mark

Is it possible that this airframe was with “Air Headquarters India Communications Squadron”? I have a friend who flew Daks with them in about 1947, and apparently they had a Spitfire XI ostensibly for ferrying the “red box” out to the Viceroy, but in reality it was the squadron hack.