Indian Air Force Thread 20

Time will tell, for now, all you do is speculating with zero facts related o this particular choice

What I’ve posted about the Reliance’s technical capabilities is just plain reality not speculation. That there’s already an established pvt sector aviation major that is the obvious choice for every foreign OEM, also plain reality not speculation.

Its like Saab going to Brazil and then signing an agreement with Petrobras as a local partner instead of Embraer. Sure that too can be defended with ‘time will tell’ & ‘Saab wanted it done its own way’, it still wouldn’t normalize it.

what’s more, we’ve seen already loads of defamation in India around MMRCA choices… fact is you have plenty of people not afraid to spit anything they can with their own agenda, and who cares about it being plain lies… with so much money at stake you can’t trust anything you read… so, once again, once the facts are there, one can speak.. until then, if you make judgements, you have nothing to base them upon except your personal liking or disliking

None of the money has been earmarked for me, and I’m in any case stating commonly known facts (that you can Google) not the opinion of some journalist/writer, so I have no idea what you’re on about.

But again what’s the rational? What is Dassault’s official pitch on this one? What are the perspectives for India ? You can’t offer local shared production of Falcon’s and Rafale when the production rate is so low. They will have to articulate something with an European partner (Safran, Thales etc…) when those ones are already engaged following the earlier deal for 36 airframe.

They would have presented their offering to MOD , That is what really matters in the end. Even for MMRCA they would have done the same , Considering IAF already or will operate 36 Rafale , they can offer some competitive choice to MOD

Media management is good thing but if you recall similar media management was done by Euro , Saab , Boeing and all but that did not help much and Rafale was the preffered choice for IAF

Time will tell, for now, all you do is speculating with zero facts related o this particular choice

what’s more, we’ve seen already loads of defamation in India around MMRCA choices… fact is you have plenty of people not afraid to spit anything they can with their own agenda, and who cares about it being plain lies… with so much money at stake you can’t trust anything you read… so, once again, once the facts are there, one can speak.. until then, if you make judgements, you have nothing to base them upon except your personal liking or disliking

Seem you have a hint toward the answer .Add to it that it is not just a one time major project, but a joint venture toward delocalized production of both civil and military equipment for export.

TASL (Tata) has JVs with LM, Boeing & Airbus. Also, Elta, IAI, RUAG, Pilatus, GE, Rolls Royce among others. There was no non-compete clause prohibiting Dassault from joining them. Thales, for example, already has a tie-up with TASL for SMART-L naval radars.

Local production for export? Already happening. For example, the US (Presidential transport) Marine One’s new S-92s will have cabins manufactured in Hyderabad. From 2018, TASL will be the sole supplier of AH-64 fuselages to Boeing. The IAF’s new Airbus C-295s (Avro replacement) will be assembled at TASL. HAL is subcontracting much of its in-house work to TASL (among others). If the C-130J is chosen to replace the (cancelled) MTA, it’ll be built/assembled at TASL. And on and on.

All of this experience collectively has created core competencies over the last 15 years, enabling TASL to emerge as a private sector alternative to HAL. Something Sukhoi realized when it was scouting for a local partner for maintenance and spares production for the Su-30MKI (its also in talks to build SSJ-100 components at TASL).

Reliance is a write-off as a future aviation major though it’ll no doubt make a bundle off the deal in question. All of the offsets that have been steered towards it through the Rafale deal (and would have otherwise generated valuable experience) are also consequently write-offs.

At best it’ll fade away in time, at worst it’ll actively cannibalize parts of TASL’s future business.

Russia’s Sukhoi optimistic about Tata for India joint venture

A top Sukhoi executive told ET that the liberalised foreign direct investment (FDI) norms have opened the possibility of a JV and the Russian manufacturer is in talks with Indian private sector companies. The executive said while similar plans were discussed in the past, the recent changes in the FDI policy has opened up a real possibility of setting up such a unit. On being asked by ET if Sukhoi would consider its traditional partner — Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) — or other Indian players for the proposed JV, Chishchevoy said the Russian entity is in talks with private companies and that Tata is the only one with technical expertise.

actually, I look at the reality. Dassault delivers on time excellent aircraft unless asked to delayas the Rafale, for the french, that was supposed to be introduced in the mid-90’s and french state delayed orders because they were broke after the collapse of warsaw pact. If they decide to do things one given way, I won’t go and imagine god only knows what obscure (and illegal) reasons as to why they did it. I’ll look what and how they do it and judge on facts… on the other hand, you spend your time bashing the Rafale (some problems with the french? or just jealous that your own pet plane, whatever it is, can compete?) and putting accusations you have no way to support in any way… who has his blinders on?

The quality of Dassault’s aircraft or the schedule of delivery is not the issue in contention. Trumpeting that is merely an attempt to distract from its chosen partner Reliance’s record and skill-set. As is the whining about Francophobia. Plenty of pro-Rafale commentators are ‘uncomfortable’ with the decision as well.

And, for the record, I’m sure Dassault will ensure their deal with Reliance will pass the regulatory bar. Fortunately, the regulatory framework governing offsets is rather nebulous.

That doesn’t change the answer to Coffee_Bean’s question –

What a fail…. I dont understand why Dassault would want to partner with a company with no engineering background and which is one of the most corrupt companies in India.

To recycle offsets and ‘leverage’ Reliance’s political influence.

why? wanna buy some? 😀

Already. yes. You’re not going to try to sell twice the Eiffel tower, don’t you?

The rationale for what? Pitch again for what? Rafale team do not pitch, they work instead of communicate. Started JVs (Thales SAMTEL, MBDA with Bharat Electronics while Boeing and LM are advertising.
Btw, they offered to set up a local production line if second batch was 90 or more. Safran already invest 1 billion in Kaveri engine improvement etc.

IAF would prefer to have to Rafale beyond 36 under Make in India Category in terms of Fleet Management and Capability , Rafale is ideal aircraft chief states but cost is high Air Chief states

http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/walk-the-talk/walk-the-talk-with-air-chief-marshal-arup-raha-443840

But again what’s the rational? What is Dassault’s official pitch on this one? What are the perspectives for India ? You can’t offer local shared production of Falcon’s and Rafale when the production rate is so low. They will have to articulate something with an European partner (Safran, Thales etc…) when those ones are already engaged following the earlier deal for 36 airframe.

2015 for the airframer [represent] with 55 deliveries its lowest figure for 10 years [(Falcons)].

Boeing and LM communication on the contrary are well rounded and the difference is so stricking that many can only share VNomad’s opinion given the past events. They have to come full frontal with the public on another way than brutish Bollywood like lobbying . Powerpoint is sexy sometimes 😉

Source:
FlightGlobal.com

IAF would prefer to have to Rafale beyond 36 under Make in India Category in terms of Fleet Management and Capability , Rafale is ideal aircraft chief states but cost is high Air Chief states

http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/walk-the-talk/walk-the-talk-with-air-chief-marshal-arup-raha-443840

… All the majors Boeing, Airbus, LM, BAE, etc. partnered with prominent local pvt. engg. coys on major projects – L&T, Mahindra, Tata, Bharat Forge etc.

Seem you have a hint toward the answer .Add to it that it is not just a one time major project, but a joint venture toward delocalized production of both civil and military equipment for export.

I don’t need to prove that Reliance had little to no core engg./technical expertise and oodles of political influence. Its a widely known fact.

Either Dassault was super impressed with Reliance’s passion or it was interested in its own bottom-line. Take the nationalistic blinders off and the answers will be obvious.

actually, I look at the reality. Dassault delivers on time excellent aircraft unless asked to delayas the Rafale, for the french, that was supposed to be introduced in the mid-90’s and french state delayed orders because they were broke after the collapse of warsaw pact. If they decide to do things one given way, I won’t go and imagine god only knows what obscure (and illegal) reasons as to why they did it. I’ll look what and how they do it and judge on facts… on the other hand, you spend your time bashing the Rafale (some problems with the french? or just jealous that your own pet plane, whatever it is, can compete?) and putting accusations you have no way to support in any way… who has his blinders on?

Reliance will be building Ka-226 too, right?

HAL. RH passed on the Reliance pitch.

​Russian Helicopters, HAL prepare for Indian Ka-226T production

Russian Helicopters and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) have formed a joint venture for the production of 200 Kamov Ka-226T “Sergei” light utility helicopters.

The joint venture will oversee the development of facilities to produce the rotorcraft and maintain them, says Russian Helicopters in a statement.

you accuse, it’s up to you to bring proof for your statements… otherwise anybody can post anything… an example: MMRCA deal failed? BAe at fault, corrupted indian officials to prevent it… no need for proof, it’s easy to deduct as they were pushing for the Typhoon… no?

I don’t need to prove that Reliance had little to no core engg./technical expertise and oodles of political influence. Its a widely known fact.

Either Dassault was super impressed with Reliance’s passion or it was interested in its own bottom-line. Take the nationalistic blinders off and the answers will be obvious.

Reliance will be building Ka-226 too, right?

Nah, even for them 15% was a bit too much…

Reliance will be building Ka-226 too, right?

you accuse, it’s up to you to bring proof for your statements… otherwise anybody can post anything… an example: MMRCA deal failed? BAe at fault, corrupted indian officials to prevent it… no need for proof, it’s easy to deduct as they were pushing for the Typhoon… no?

You’re right. I can’t. And since I can’t prove it, nobody can. Ipso facto, it must be false. My bad. I retract all I’ve said.

Dassault must have chosen Reliance because they share a passion for technical excellence and a firm commitment to the highest degree of moral rectitude.

Yeah.. that’s gotta be it.

prove it

Vnomad obviously doesn’t want to undrstand what he’s being told… I said that maybe Dassault did no want a partner who does things his own way simply vecause the “indian way” of doing things doesn’t appel to them… having a partner who has zero experience will allow you to built your installatyions and make them work the way you want them to function… without having to deal with “I know it alls” that they’d encounter without a doubt with any of the companies who did something with aircraft before…

Oh I understand and agree completely. All the majors Boeing, Airbus, LM, BAE, etc. partnered with prominent local pvt. engg. coys on major projects – L&T, Mahindra, Tata, Bharat Forge etc.

Dassault tied up with Reliance instead because it wanted things done ‘its own way’. Like I said, birds of the same feather.

in any case, you can spit your deception all you want, in the end, Dassault deliver aircraft as asked to, if they are ordered to deliver a given number of Rafales for a given date, they most certainly know much better than a forum fan how to do it (as they already do it IRL… not just on discussion boards)

Sure sure. As long as the aircraft are delivered ‘as asked’ and the offset boxes are ticked away on paper, it doesn’t really matter where some $1 billion of the taxpayer’s money (~10%) actually goes.