Indian LPD's?

Of course seizing Karachi doesn’t mean actually entering the place, it would near impossible to anyone to take control of such a mess like a twelve million inhabitants developing world’s town.

The key is to have the capabilities to cut off the logistic routes to the town, and it won’t mean actually doing it, just to have the capabilities forcing this way the opponent to build up the proper countermeasures, depleting resources.

An actual landing would result anyway in bloodshed, at least until Pakistan is ready to counter the landing.

Pakistan being ready is the strategical target, it would require land, air and naval assets to be locked down, even built from scratch, just because India purchased an half century old amphibious ship for almost nothing and is going to build three more for little expense.

Then the ships will see assigned to them far more foreign aid and foreign policy’s tasks than war tasks, it is quite logic and straightforward, nonetheless they will be a real asset in the indo-pakistan confrontation without even sailing.

Most of the talk from IN sources as reported in the media emphasizes “lessons from the tsunami” and humanitarian missions, rather than opposed amphibious assault.

While this is to be expected, in an image-conscious world, that still seems to indicate that a significant expectation is that this class will be spending a lot of its time in non-hostile work, and that much of their design will be oriented towards operations involving island locations… massive simultaneous airlift assaults aren’t really in the IN planning right now.

Later maybe… but not right now.

An force of 2-3 LPDs would be sufficient to strike at unwanted forward bases on islands in the Indian Ocean, or to provide significant disaster relief capabilities.

Remember the typhoon that hit Bangladesh just after the end of Desert Storm in 1991?

A USN amphib group was on its way home, and was diverted to assist. The UN effort leader said afterwards that the most valuable assets were the LCACs the USN used… their capacity to operate over flooded fields, cross debris-filled areas, skim along roads, etc, as well as over open water was even more valuable than the helicopters, as the LCACs were able to operate at night and in bad weather, and to carry large amounts of supplies and large numbers of passengers.

I expect that the IN will have remembered that as well, and will be seeking such craft for whatever variety of dock-equipped amphib they finally build..

Sorry, wrong Texan city. Slip of the brain. I meant San Antonio (LPD-17), not Austin. LPD class currently building.

Now that – posing a threat of a landing which could endanger important routes to Pakistani ports – is something 4 or 5 LPDs backed up by a few LSLs could do, & I agree, the threat would force Pakistan to pay attention to coastal defence. But it isn’t capturing Karachi. Frankly, if I was an Indian commander, I’d want to keep my troops out of the place. Big hostile cities are deathtraps.

Yes, vertical lift is limited with such a fleet (but can we interest you in one well cared for CVS, already modified to be an effective LPH? 😀 ), but it still has many uses, most of which a narrow focus on Pakistan would lead you to overlook. There are many cases, from disaster relief through peacekeeping to small-scale interventions, where an LPD or two can work wonders.

They could provide air cover through their carrier, but they cannot provide enough vertical lift, that is meaning they can perform only short range operatins near the shoreline, and at the same very time they cannot perform special forces insertions on strategic targets.

The kind of amphibious warfare a small fleet of LPDs can perform is quite straightforward: landing troops on a shoreline that is itself a target, providing good manpower and good logistical support.

The only conceivable rationale is to cut or to endanger the northern road to Karachi, causing havoc between some twelve millions pakistani living there.

It should be enough a menace to force Pakistan to devote huge resouces only to defend the whole shoreline west of Karachi and to keep many of its SSKs almost idle waiting for the indian amphibious fleet approching the shores.

About Austin class, they were designed in the sixty’s, they are quite outdated under any parameter, aren’t they.

Still, with little or near no expense, India is building through them a worrysome problem that Pakistan will have to deal with.

No, I’m afraid that doesn’t follow. India is currently building two aircraft carriers, & planning a third. They could provide air cover for any amphibious operation, regardless of the kind of amphibious ship.

There is more to a ship than whether it has a full length flight deck or not. Also important are what troop accommodation, how much vehicle storage & of what kind, whether it has davits or a crane & deck stowage for landing craft, whether it has a dock & if so how large, what access there is from troop accommodation & vehicle decks to the flight deck, dock, landing craft on davits, etc., whether it has a hangar, & if so how large. Oh, so much, so very very much!

BTW, you’d need a lot more than 4 LPDs to even dream of capturing Karachi. Even 40 would seem perilously few. How many troops do you think would be needed to take & hold a city that size? A few thousand would be swallowed by it, never to be seen again.

Also, why do you say ‘old kind of LPD’? What’s old about an LPD like the Austin-class?

First and foremost it should be addressed what the missions are.

Without a clue about type, scale and context of the missions to be accomplished by the indian amphibious force it makes little sense to argue about wich type of amphibious ships it deserves or it needs.

Having the indians opted for an old kind of LPD, I would argue that they are envisaging a real short legged scope of amphibious warfare, within the range of their own land based combat aircrafts in a pure tactical meaning.

It would be quite in line with the existence of one single meaningful objective for an indian amphibious force, i.e. the seizure of Karachi.

Well, India has alot of irons in the fire. So, she would likely need a partner or more likley just purchase a foreign design and build it domestically with some outside help……….IMO

Agreed, this seems the most likely option.

The Dutch (Enforcer family), Spanish (their own variants of the same family), Koreans & Singaporeans have recently built classic small-deck LPDs. Spain, France & Korea have recently built LHDs. Italy has built smallish amphibious ships called LPDs but with a through deck. The Germans, Dutch & Italians have LHD designs on offer, & the Italians & Germans classic LPD designs, though they’ve not built any recently.

Spoilt for choice.

Mistral, and because its cheap….
followed by a ship in the Enforcer family of LSD/LPD’s

secondary option (better in someways) is to design a new indigenous LPD.

Lastly look at Russia’s new Ivan Gren Landing ship

The Enforcer family also includes ships with a full length flightdeck and hangar facilities

http://www.damennaval.com/nl/main-stream-activities_amphibious-support-ships-%2526-naval-auxiliaries.htm

http://www.areamilitar.net/Analise/analise.aspx?NrMateria=48&p=5

I think they might go indigenous personally, there shipbuilding has progressed ALOT in the past 5 years..

Does anyone know what type of problems China had with the Kuunlan Shan?

Well, India has alot of irons in the fire. So, she would likely need a partner or more likley just purchase a foreign design and build it domestically with some outside help……….IMO

I think they might go indigenous personally, there shipbuilding has progressed ALOT in the past 5 years..

Does anyone know what type of problems China had with the Kuunlan Shan?

The lines between a LHD and LPD are becoming increasingly blurred in todays envrioment. the USN is moving toward large deck amphib and small deck amphib, and it is even kind of replicating over seas, the French for example are replacing their LPD/LSD’s with the Mistrals

Indeed some countries have LPD’s that are in fact LHD’s. With full length flight decks and deck wells.

Italy being a good example…..

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/san_giorgio/

However, LPD indicates something with only a partial flight deck for helicopters.

LHD would indicate a full-length flight deck along with a well dock.

LPH has the full-length flight deck but no dock.

Now, here is what India says it wants…

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/cities/Delhi/article64571.ece

Since INS Jalashwa is the ex-USS Trenton, a classic LPD, it seems India is NOT going for a full-length flight deck!

India may very well choose a more classic LPD Design with only a flight deck on the aft end of the ship. Much like the current INS Jalashwa. Yet, as you own source says ““In the coming year or two, we are going to finalise the design for the LPD” So, who knows at this stage??? Clearly, the current trends among Modern Navies has been moving toward more LHD/LHA Types vs the Classic LPD. (i.e. Helo Only) Nonetheless, I was just expressing the added flexibility of such designs.

then how about dokdo

The lines between a LHD and LPD are becoming increasingly blurred in todays envrioment. the USN is moving toward large deck amphib and small deck amphib, and it is even kind of replicating over seas, the French for example are replacing their LPD/LSD’s with the Mistrals

However, LPD indicates something with only a partial flight deck for helicopters.

LHD would indicate a full-length flight deck along with a well dock.

LPH has the full-length flight deck but no dock.

Now, here is what India says it wants…

“The plan is to add four more LPDs to the fleet and these would operate alongside INS Jalashwa, the only LPD currently in service,” a senior Navy officer told PTI here on Sunday.

“In the coming year or two, we are going to finalise the design for the LPD, which is somewhat akin to INS Jalashwa.

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/cities/Delhi/article64571.ece

Since INS Jalashwa is the ex-USS Trenton, a classic LPD, it seems India is NOT going for a full-length flight deck!

this is true. Mistral is probably the best deal though

If, memory serves me the Mistral was suppose to be design to operate the F-35. So, adding a Ski Jump should not be a problem.

. Hard to choose!;)

this is true. Mistral is probably the best deal though

yeah, unlike aircraft which only have a very few companies making them.. ships got plenty of variety. Armor too for that matter.

I think it would be wise to have full length flight deck and even a Ski Jump. Thereby giving you maximum flexibility! Just like the RAN will with the Canberra Class. While they may or may not operate STOVL Aircraft like the F-35B at some future date. They have the operation to operate Allied Aircraft is such a role if called upon.

I think Spanish BPE Design is State of the Art and extremely flexible. Really, so many good designs out there. Hard to choose!;)

yeah, unlike aircraft which only have a very few companies making them.. ships got plenty of variety. Armor too for that matter.

Mistral, and because its cheap….
followed by a ship in the Enforcer family of LSD/LPD’s

secondary option (better in someways) is to design a new indigenous LPD.

Lastly look at Russia’s new Ivan Gren Landing ship

I think Spanish BPE Design is State of the Art and extremely flexible. Really, so many good designs out there. Hard to choose!;)