Indian Missile news and speculations

As this has nothing anymore to do with the original subject, consider the topic locked.

As for those who participated in this flamefest, and didn’t get a ban yey, be VERY careful. This was the one and only warning.

And do you not consider indian muslims as indians?

Oh please!They are as much as a part of India as are Sikhs,Buddhists,Christians,Jains,Jews etc.And more often than not everybody is at peace with each other .Look and you will find muslims occupying important positions and shaping Indian destiny.But no whenever you see Muslims getting cosy with Hindus or vice versa you guys[not you personally] get so jealous that you begin to say “they are not true muslims”.Once I visited some Pak forum and such filthy things were being said about Prof.Abdul Kalam.Who Mohammed/Imam are you to judge them?

What severe impact are we talking about here Nick? Hindu temples seized to exist? All Indians were suddenly converted into Muslims? India is has huge population and the majority is hindu.

please read the prior links, genocide was committed and atrocites were common. hindu society suffered terribly both culturally and as a group thanks to islam. but qsaark denied it totally. the point is that civilizational memory does exist and there are issues today because of what happened in the past. how would a hindu react when a muslim theologian praises aurangzeb? why do you think babri masjid was knocked down? what happened yesterday reverbrates even today.

You have your religion and your culture to this day alive. Hindus owned land were entrepreneurs and served in military.

sure, but they suffered terribly as well. which is the point i made to qsaark about why it takes two hands to clap, and that islam wasnt necessarily a victim.

Akbur married into rajputs to make them his loyal allies against the pathans and turks. If there was warfare it affected everyone. When Babur came in he did not spare Lodhi. Declaring “Jihad” against rajputs was a very convenient way to shore up his soldiers. It was pretty popular theme in middle ages everywhere including Europe. His drinking habbits and fight against Lodhi does tell another story though.

akbar began his career with a brutal war against the hindu chieftains. which included a massacre of many rajputs. he liberalised later on. but the point remains, that akbar was an exception to the rule. aurangzeb, jehangir, babur- all displayed various grades of extreme bigotry towards non muslims, despite having relations with the same. why?

the khiljis were even worse. these are facts, farooq. jihad existed, it wasnt such a tactical ploy as it was also a declaration of faith against non muslims too.

It is not the first time that people from central asia descended on Indian subcontinent and conquered. It has been going on way before Ghaznavis,Baburs etc.

the difference is that this was not plunder alone. it was quasi religious and fought in the name of religion- and india is still suffering this.

Rajputs are considered a warrior race and admired for war skills. Do you think when they descended upon subcontinet and established their kingdoms it was a peaceful love affair between whoever was here and who ever came later? Without having several kingdoms fighting full time against each other garbing land and wealth do you think you can exist as something close to a warrior race? I don’t think so. Was hinduism the first religion in India ever? Was religion not influenced by the values of new comers before muslims? Do you think people who were “severly affected” by those incomings any better off than the ones that suffered at the hands of muslims?

farooq. first, rajputs were not the sole “warrior race”-they are just a particular group which gained notoriety because of the focus on north india. second, indian chieftains abided by a sense of morality and fair play towards civilians which was either naive or remarkable, considering your pov. civilians were not attacked, nor converted. the south had more leeway in the matter of plunder (eg the cholas) but its a fact of life that siege weaponry was practically unknown in india for the lack of warfare based on taking cities. the difference is that islamic warriors came not just for plunder but for elevating themselves to divine grace. they did this by attacking civilians, massacring them, defiling houses of worship and selling individuals into slavery. please read about the islamic slave trade in detail. again, the rajputs etc are not the point- the point is that massive crimes were committed in the name of islam, and the perpetrators have been glorified as ghazis by islamic theologians.

I woudl beg to differ. To me it is the same continution of wave after wave which came towards India fought killed and left behind their mark in some way.

the mark as in religious violence based on exclusivism which extends to this day? remarkable, as even the huns never achieved that. frankly, the islamists were the first organized group to have waged war with the purpose of bringing a country to their system of belief. that is what i pointed out to qsaark, something he was unwilling to admit.

If you are looking for a single distinct grand invasion by a hoard in one go that would change the face of India then you won’t find that.

The concept of Arya does exist in Hindu religion and no one denies the fact that dravidian culture is/was present. How do you disprove these cultures based on genegraphy does not make much sense when interbreeding would definitely cause the interminglling of hyplogroup phenotypes. The occurances of same hyplo types exists at vast distances seperated by huge streches of distances. You will find same genetic markers in different cultures but that would hardly relate them or bring them together culturally. It in no way disproves the fact that warrior people from central asia kept coming to subcontinent established their kingdoms and conducted warfare.

sorry farooq, the above is just jargon with absolutely no fact to it. as a so called dravidian, i know exactly how this entire aryan dravidian nonsense was created. and that genetic markers as found across india showed no evidence of any aryan invasion or the like.
and when you state: “the concept of arya does exist in hindu religion”- arya is just a honorific which is used for anyone who does a noble deed. this is in fact the same mistake which mueller, the originator of this theory did, with little interest in real indian history and a mandate to prove that the british were one amongst a long line of conquerors in india, he ended up creating this pseudo-science.

The point is i don’t see you repeating that even one time in your post on this very forum. Not them not anyone before muslims but only muslims, why?

because of a very simple fact- a) their raids were in no way as destructive to india as islamic ones b) they didnt set up genocidal empires in india to convert everyone to “mongol” or “hun” by the sword c) no hun or mongol theologian today quotes these methods approvingly and d) there was no aryan invasion

I hardly see any slightest effort to redress what was done. Any effort to try and arbitrate or help resolve problems that were left behind. The loot and plunder, how much of that is back in India ?

india has no issues of loot and plunder as such. whats gone is gone. but we do have issues when folks like kaduna and qsaark first deny that atrocities were committed in the name of islam and then second, call anyone who points out the flaws as xyz extremist. all i said was, a lot of blood has been spilt in the name of islam and is still being spilt. thats a problem- it wont go away by denying it or calling folks names, thats all. that is why islam is still regarded warily. its not that the whole world are bigots who are born with the idea of burning muslims etc.

Nick, i am not sure why you havent heard anything about loot and plunder of the muslim raiders from muslims. I ahve no problem admitting it. Qsaark has no problem. And guess where did i read about that? In the history books written by Pakistani historians which are taught in universities. There is this series called “Tareekh-e- Pak O Hind” which is taught BA. I have read fair amount of objective analysis of reasons (loot) of the raiders you mentioned.

farooq, the problem is that your books concentrate on loot, since it allows the religious aspect of these raids to be given a go by since it was indefensible. so it was given a go by. money and wealth is not an issue- but bigotry is. see, there is the difference, your education system will not admit that these crimes were not committed for just wealth but for the sake of religious war . every account by the perpetrators themselves speaks of the same. please read the links yourself, and make up your own mind.

The problem is , do you want to live in history or in today? Do you think it is ok to have religious riots and killings based on our history or there is another better way than that.

we are all affected by history. reconciliation comes when both sides sit and shake hands. but tell me, will a hindu agree to shake hands with a muslim if the muslim attacks him and then calls him an extremist for retaliating? it wouldnt work if it were the reverse either, would it?
as long as some of your compadres refuse to admit that islam too has had a bloody role in inter communal relations, how can true peace be found?
nobody likes being a punching bag- even gandhianism wont last in that case, beyond a point.

Nick, India is a melting pot and popultion magnifies that fact manifold. I don’t have a problem with understanding there is friction and some groups have it at the expense of other. It’s the same every where and this is how human societies work no matter who says what. We can only hope to minimize it and that is when it becomes totally unacceptable to people like you and me, incidents like Godhra i India or burning of Shanti nagar in Pakistan.

sure. but this is the point- you admitted this, but kaduna couldnt. he was more interested in playing sides. the entire point of riots is that innocents suffer, irrespective of who they are. saying that x muslims died, and evil hindus were responsible is a farce. look at the deeper malaise. why did the tableeghis attack the train, why was the reaction to that crime so intense and so on and so forth. taking sides is not going to get us anywhere.

I have met quite a few muslim indians and none of them was pointing to scriptures trying to be my bossom buddy because of my religion. Fun fact, just right after partition Sahibzada Yaqub Khan’s brother was defending an Indian army post as an officer of Indian army which he was supposed to go after. If muslims have been serving India as Indians then i think it’s unfair to paint them as fifth column just because of their religion.

muslims are not a fifth column – but they are my fellow indians and i have every right to point out if they are astray. however, i wont be lectured to by others on how muslims alone are right and the rest of us are not, – not referring to you, but your compadres. which is what they did since they even refused to consider the truth, that the riots in gujarat went both ways. as indians muslims have every right as their fellow indians, and they are held accountable to the same standards. it flows that way (or at least it should)

If we are going to apply today’s standard then definitely they were all those things. Atleast the last one founded an empire which gave India a system. But who was not during those day doing all those things you called them?

an empire built upon injustice and cruelty to those of a different faith. is that something for us to look forward to?

The only reason the missiles are named after them i can think of is that they were warriors. There is a statue of Prophet Muhammed outside US supreme court among other personalities who are considered law givers. Do you think that is to be interpreted as US endorsement of Islamic laws or everything that is part of that law in anyway? How about picture of Tippu Sultan and his rockets at NASA building? Does it mean they certified his every action and was deemed fit according to prevailing moral values of United States?

come farooq, thats not the reason and you know it. pakistan chose those names so that they would deliberately offend india as a psyops ploy. good try but the reason remains. mohammad was outside the supreme court because as you said, he is a law giver and founder of a religion. tippu sultans picture is there because he used rockets in combat. the people i mentioned were not founders or lawgivers- they were bigots and mass murderers, lets not justify a poor decision by the Pak Govt.

Depends on who you are debating with. Would you believe i have debated almost every aspect of islam in school among friends back in Pakistan? When you paint Pakistan as a totally intolerant society in which you cannot question religion then to me it sounds totally contradictory to my 20 years of experience and the kind of open discussions i had sitting in history classes. If you were true about that then i would have not lived to see this day. The riotings and what not that you see is there but tell me is it any difference then the protest when they decided to make that sealane between India and srilanak considered of religious importance ? There are alot of countries and societies which have a long way to go before we can hold banners and have silent protests like in west. They havent come to this stage in one day either.

farooq, i dont think you have a totally intolerant society- the fact that you are talking to me and not losing your cool gives me hope. but i will tell you that the reaction as shown by kaduna and qsaark is the antithesis of yours. it was the definitive version of “any criticism has to be addressed by slinging mud elsewhere”. in india we whitewashed islams record for communal harmony. in pak, a similar effort has been done for different reasons.

but the problems remain.

the simple thing is that historical facts dont disappear, civilizational issues remain. they can be addressed but debate is necessary, and that means accepting the reality at times. do you think i can deny that there is still poverty in india or that social ills remain? i dont. its the truth, but we are working on them.

ok, coming to the SL issue- indian politicians have stood up and said they dont believe in mythology and the project will go ahead. please tell me, if one says the same about islam in pak, what would the result be? we know it, right? that is what i mean- for reconciliation, you have to allow non muslims and muslims to evaluate islam and not stop debate. otherwise, how will common ground be found?

The problem is that i am willing to accept that and he is willing to accept some of that too. Are you willing to accept it was not abnormal and perfectly normal to do such things everywhere including India?

i would like to, but for the fact that history doesnt bear it out. as i said no forced conversions to “hunnism” and “mongolism”- but forced conversions to islam and religious war were normal. two wrongs dont make a right farooq, even if indians were to have done such things, the fact that wave after wave of islamic rulers doing the same doesnt make it ok, or right.

I don’t complain about what world is doing to muslims. They are reponsible for most of what is happening. Noone helps you if you dont help yourself.

finally! that is all i was getting at.

And do you not consider indian muslims as indians?

of course they are, which is why they are expected to play nice with fellow indians. and vice versa.

Add another fence with Bangladesh in the east. Let the good neighbors continue to blast away to glory.

hyperwarp is the best guy!He even downthumbs his own posts.:eek: :p

cheers dude.You get a beer from me if I ever meet you!:)

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=34262

YEAR END REVIEW 2007

MINISTRY OF DEFENCE

The successful launch of Interceptor Missile (AAD) towards developing a ballistic missile defence system, test flight of Agni-III (A3-02), user trial of Akash Missile by Army and Air Force, Handing over of first batch of land version of BrahMos missile systems to Army and successful conduct of 4th Military World Games were some of the significant events in the Ministry of Defence during the current year. The issue of Request for Proposal (RFP) for the purchase of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force, the arrival of first batch of two Hawk Advanced Jet Trainers from UK, Signing of the Agreement with Russia on the Joint Development of 5th Generation Fighter Aircraft, First meeting of Indo-German High Defence Committee, Meeting of the Indo-French High Committee Meeting and approval of Parliament to the Armed Forces Tribunal Bill were some other major events during the year.

INTERCEPTOR MISSILE

The country took a significant step towards Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) and joined the elite club of USA, Russia and Israel when an interceptor missile successfully targeted the ‘hostile’ missile off the Orissa coast twice in early December. The Endo-Atmospheric AAD Interceptor missile test fired from Wheeler Island intercepted the target missile at an altitude of 15 km from launch surface at supersonic speed.

AGNI – III

The Agni – III was successfully launched on April 12, 2007 from the Wheeler Island, off the coast of Orissa. The 16 meter long missile weighing 48 tonnes, lifted off successfully from its Rail Mobile Launcher System leaving a trail of orange and yellow smoke. The missile which has a range of more than 3000 kms is capable of carrying a pay load of 1.5 Tonnes.

AKASH MISSILE

Mobility trials as part of user’s trial for Army were conducted at Pokharan during 11 to 29 Jun, 2007 followed by Flyover Trials of Akash Weapon system as part of Air Force User Trials at Pokharan during 15 to 17 Nov 2007. The User’s Trials were also successfully conducted by ITR, Chandipur during 13 to 19 Dec 2007.

BRAHMOS MISSILE SYSTEM

First batch of land version of BrahMos missile systems was handed over to the Army. Installation of multi-missile vertical launcher was also completed on board naval ship INS Ranvir. The missile, capable of firing from underwater, is ready for evaluation test so that future submarines will have BrahMos missiles. Development of air version and its interface with different types of aircraft is in progress.

Oh Nick..I see you are on Holiday!:p

some holiday, this! i am going to go get some food! 🙂

I think Victor said the most important thing here.The main thing for India to learn is how to make a good WALL along its north western border[Israel is the country to follow].We DONT care whats going on in your country dudes as long as you dont mess with us.

good fences make for good neighbours! 😉

Oh Nick..I see you are on Holiday!:p
For those who dont know , besides being all other things;) Nick is an excellent historian type.All those who argue with Nick on subcontinental history are going to get a bloody nose.:cool:

There is no need to fight for something so obvious such as the difference between a extremist country and a stable democracy.And the difference is increasing day by day since the liberation in 1947.I will say what , the Pakistani posters here are suffering from immense frustration at the condition in which Pakistan finds itself today with the negative events going on everywhere and as a result all this venting in the forum.Well as human beings we empathise with the ordinary pakistani citizen but in the end its all your creation.Stop looking for somebody else to blame always for your problems.[India,RAW,Israel,Zionists,US,Hindus , christians,Jews etc etc etc].the first step to solve one’s problem is to accept that tHere is one.

I think Victor said the most important thing here.The main thing for India to learn is how to make a good WALL along its north western border[Israel is the country to follow].We DONT care whats going on in your country dudes as long as you dont mess with us.

Irony is, Indian Govt is doing business, selling arms and what not with the people who are still killing Tamils. So when indians were wrong, then or now?

qsaark, qsaark- oh my! india is not selling arms to “kill tamils”. it has limited itself to radars, offshore patrol vessels and other items which are essentially defensive in nature.

in comparison pak has had a gala time.
http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2006/6/7294.html

see, india doesnt want to intervene in a sri lankan conflict. it doesnt want sri lankas sovereignty to suffer, or the tamils to suffer, so it has a nuanced position. pakistan…otoh, is sure having fun.

Not really, only four. Four terrorists ring no bell that an entire country or a whole religion is terrorist.

rotfl, whats the % of all the reports on pakistan? do you seriously think i’ll waste my time trying to convince you, now that you are using such semantics and wordplay? and who said “the entire religion is terrorist”. only that sufficient terrorists exist, fighting in the name of islam to make people wary.

you cant even acknowledge this basic point.

Statistically, this is simply not significant. If you try to publish a paper in peer reviewed journal, with these figures, it wont be accepted.

sure..please tell that to all the countries who keep asking pak to fight its own creations, the talib and the jihadis. tell them that the people that they lose to pakistani extremists are not statistically significant.

And by the way, they were UK passport holder. This was not the responsibility of Pakistan Govt to see for what they were visiting Pakistan. This is a failure of British govt that they did’nt keep check on their citizens activity.

the uk’s biggest mistake, it can be argued, was to let these gents in, in the first place. of course, per your logic (if it can be called that!) pak had zero responsibility in allowing terror networks to thrive on its soil. it was innocent!

So the mob that goes on killing frenzy should not be dubbed as extremist? Sorry Sir always thought you do not condone murder and killing which is exactly what i was refering to.

no despite all your protestations, you are attacking other members here based on their religion. your posts referred to me & others as extremists.

nor have i defended those mobs- they deserve to be punished under the law as do the muslims who did the same. something kaduna would never acknowledge.

based on your claims before, i could call you similar epithets based on your statements/pov on islamic crimes- if i was so inclined. i havent gone down that path.

so please eschew the name calling. that is, if you wish to debate. otherwise, lets quit this discussion as i dont have the time or inclination for epithets.

Go ahead and show me the figures. You have magnified things to a level that is unimaginable. After talking so much, two incidents.

boss, even i post a thousand incidents or ten thousand of paks terror links, you will be saying only 1000, only 10,000 only 4000, only 2000 whatever ??denial is not a river in egypt?!

anyways…just because you are so insistent i wasted half an hour of my life in this wonderful endeavour…..

and my fingers hurt.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070603/REPOSITORY/706030425/1013/NEWS03

Also charged are Kareem Ibrahim, Abdul Kadir and Abdel Nur. Ibrahim, a Trinidadian, and Kadir are being detained in Trinidad, and U.S. officials are seeking their extradition to New York. Kadir is a former member of the Guyanese Parliament and a former mayor of Linden, Guyana. Nur, a Guyanese national of Pakistani descent, is still at large. ……….

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19000112/site/newsweek/

Yet Roland Jacquard, a leading French security expert, says that current government assessments rank Pakistani networks second only to Al Qaeda’s branches in North Africa as a terrorist threat. He says that there’s particular concern about itinerant Pakistani imams who preach a radical line. Because they often work in homes rather than mosques, they’re also harder to watch.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/southasia/news/article_1318704.php/Afghan_bomb_attack_against_police_bus_kills_35__3rd_Roundup_

Esmatullah Daulatzai, Kabul provincial police chief, said that police had become the first targets of the insurgents as ‘police have become very active and have foiled many terrorist attacks in the country.’

‘Whoever did it, they are the enemies of Afghanistan, the enemies of Islam and the enemies of humanity,’ Daulatzai told dpa, adding ‘they are equipped and financed in another country and sent to Afghanistan,’ referring to neighbouring Pakistan.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=3329695&page=1

Major Terrorist Attack Thwarted: Suspected Car Bomb Defused in Central London

A British government source told ABC News that the authorities here in the middle of investigating significant anti-terror activities right now, with a number of investigations under way at once, including ones with links to Pakistan and al Qaeda.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007/05/17/story_17-5-2007_pg1_5

China demands 20 insurgents hiding in Pakistan

ISLAMABAD: The Chinese government has requested Islamabad to hand over more than 20 Chinese insurgents hiding in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan, Foreign Ministry sources said.

Sources said the Chinese authorities had claimed that more than 20 activists of the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, an Islamist militant outfit fighting for an independent East Turkestan in China’s Xinjiang province, were hiding in the tribal areas. They have requested the Pakistani authorities to arrest and hand over the militants, sources added.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/tim_hames/article1886876.ece

Secondly, to legislate to allow the authorities much more power to control travel between Britain and Pakistan, which – as everyone involved in this field knows – is a route that might as well be labelled the terror trail, such is the traffic that passes through it. We used to have rules that prevented British citizens in Northern Ireland from coming to the mainland without permission. Something similar is required to deal with the route to and from Pakistan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=467566&in_page_id=1811

The trail of terror leads to Pakistan

Paks good old fun..

NEW DELHI: Fazalur Rehman Khalil, a militant leader who figures in India’s list of ‘most wanted’ terrorists, was reportedly spotted in Pakistan along with a prominent Minister there. Sources say that Indian government has asked for his handover.
Khalil is the chief of banned outfit Harqat-ul-Mujahideen.

Khalil was detained by the Pakistani government several years back and remained in custody for six months. In 2004, he was released despite Indian government’s requests.

TV reports quoted sources as saying that that the investigators in UK had exchanged information about Khalil with the Indian government.

Indian authorities then demanded that Khalil be handed over

TV reports further suggest that India had asked for his custody as a part of its Joint Terror Mechanism (JTM) with Pakistan, to which the neighbouring country is yet to revert.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070708/16pakistan_print.htm

Reassess. Some U.S. officials are also reassessing Musharraf’s performance. U.S. intelligence agencies warn that al Qaeda and the Taliban have reconstituted safe havens in the badlands of western Pakistan. “I haven’t seen anything since 9/11 that suggests this guy will do stuff of his own volition that’s in our interests,” says a U.S. official. “He always does the bare minimum.” For example, despite Musharraf’s pledges to crack down on radical religious schools, U.S.and British officials have had to point out specific madrasahs that were producing graduates primed for jihadist acts.

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3451976

‘Plot Would Have Killed Thousands’
EXCLUSIVE: Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff Offers Chilling Details About 2006 Airplane Plot and Current Terror Threats

“This was very, very tightly held, because the British were concerned about any possibility of a leak getting out. Obviously, the intelligence folks knew, the senior intelligence folks, the president, senior leaders in the White House,” he said. “Within my own department, only the deputy and I were initially told about this.”

“I got a call telling me that it looked as if the focus had turned on an attack on the United States, specifically an attack on airliners leaving from Britain, traveling to American cities,” Chertoff said. “It also became evident, within 24 hours, that the time frame within which the attack was going to take place, would not be a matter of months but & a matter of weeks or even days.”

Airports in the United States and the United Kingdom were put on red alert meaning a potential attack could be imminent and liquids were banned from carry-on luggage as suspects were picked up, including 24 British-born Muslims and seven Pakistanis.

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Aug152007/foreign2007081519295.asp?section=updatenews

The National Security Archives of the George Washington University has published details of American concerns over Pakistan’s relationship with the Taliban…

Close on the heels of a US intelligence report of a resurgence of Taliban in Pakistan’s border areas, newly declassified documents reveal that Islamabad was directly involved in funding, arming and advising the militant group.
The National Security Archives of the George Washington University has published details of American concerns over Pakistan’s relationship with the Taliban during the seven-year period leading up to the terror attacks of September 11, 2001.

The revelation comes just days after Pakistan’s President Pervez Musharraf acknowledged that there is “no doubt” Afghan militants are supported from Pakistani soil.

“While Musharraf admitted the Taliban were being sheltered in the lawless frontier border regions, the declassified US documents released today clearly illustrate that the Taliban was directly funded, armed and advised by Islamabad itself,” the National Security Archives said in a statement.

The government documents, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, also detailed US concerns about Pakistani troops training and fighting alongside the Taliban inside Afghanistan.

“The records released today represent the most complete and comprehensive collection of declassified documentation to date on Pakistan’s aid programmes to the Taliban, illustrating Islamabad’s firm commitment to a Taliban victory in Afghanistan,” the Archives said.

The Archives also pointed out is that these new documents also support and inform the findings of a recently-released CIA intelligence estimate characterising Pakistan’s tribal areas as a safe haven for al-Qaeda terrorists.

“Declassified State Department cables and US intelligence reports describe the use of Taliban terrorist training areas in Afghanistan by Pakistani-supported militants in Kashmir, as well as Pakistan’s covert effort to supply Pashtun troops from its tribal regions to the Taliban cause in Afghanistan — effectively forging and reinforcing Pashtun bonds across the border and consolidating the Taliban’s severe form of Islam throughout Pakistan’s frontier region,” the Archives said.

Even though Islamabad denies that it ever provided military support to the Taliban, the documents reveal that in the weeks following the Taliban takeover of Kabul in 1996, Pakistan’s intelligence agency was “supplying the Taliban forces with munitions, fuel, and food,” the Archives said.

Pakistan’s Interservice Intelligence Directorate was “using a private sector transportation company to funnel supplies into Afghanistan and to the Taliban forces,” it said.

The documents point to a September 2000 cable cited in the 9/11 Commission Report which noted that Pakistan’s aid to the Taliban has reached “unprecedented” levels, including reports that Islamabad haD possibly allowed the Taliban to use territory in Pakistan for military operations.

Furthermore the US has “seen reports that Pakistan is providing the Taliban with materiel, fuel, funding, technical assistance and military advisors,” the Archives said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070904/ap_on_re_us/denmark_terror

Those arrested are militant Islamists with connections to leading al-Qaida persons,” Scharf said without naming those people. “According to our assessment, there is a direct connection to al-Qaida.”

The suspects — of Afghan, Pakistani, Somali and Turkish origin — were arrested without incident, Scharf told reporters. He declined to say whether more people were being sought. Eleven locations were raided in and around Copenhagen, including the Ishoej suburb and the Noerrebro district of the capital.

The TV2 News channel reported a 19-year-old electrician was arrested in Ishoej, while a taxi driver in his early 20s was arrested in Noerrebro.

TV footage shot from a helicopter showed bomb squads and forensics agents at those locations.

Sadiq al-Fatlawi, who said he lives on the floor above the cab driver, told TV2 News that police ordered him and other neighbors to leave the building during the raid because it was dangerous to remain inside.

“When we came down to the (police) van they told us that they had suspicions that there were explosives in the property,” al-Fatlawi said. They were let back in four hours later.

He said the taxi driver was of Pakistani origin and had recently moved in.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=a1XKyppPl3AE&refer=asia

By Ed Johnson

Sept. 9 (Bloomberg) — More than 80 percent of suicide bombers staging attacks in Afghanistan are trained, recruited or sheltered in neighboring Pakistan, the United Nations said in a report published today.

Only about half are Afghan nationals, with the remainder coming from Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Arab countries, according to the report, which analyzes suicide attacks in the country since the Taliban regime was ousted in 2001.

Suicide bombings are rising and won’t fall “as long as anti-government elements can rely upon Pakistani territory for the recruitment and training of operatives, for fundraising and safe havens,” said the report.

Taliban and al-Qaeda insurgents are waging a guerrilla war in Afghanistan against the government of President Hamid Karzai, who has blamed Pakistan for failing to stop rebels crossing the mountainous border between the two countries. U.S. intelligence officials said in a report published in July that al-Qaeda has established a haven in Pakistan’s tribal regions.

The UN said its report is based on interviews with national and international intelligence, military and police officials, and with failed suicide attackers held at the Pul-e-Charki prison outside the Afghan capital, Kabul.

Religious Schools [

Almost all suicide attackers in Afghanistan “undergo some form of training and preparation” in religious schools in Pakistan, known as madrassas, according to the report.

“Over 80 percent of suicide attackers pass through recruitment, training facilities or safe houses in North and South Waziristan en route to their targets inside Afghanistan,” the UN said, referring to Pakistani tribal districts.

Taliban groups around the Pakistani city of Quetta, of which there are about 30, are expected to produce one or two suicide attackers each this year, the UN added.
Only five suicide attacks took place in Afghanistan between 2001 and 2005, when they escalated to 17 during the course of the year, according to the report. Last year, there were 123 attacks and 103 this year up to the end of August.

Pakistan denies charges that it is failing to control al- Qaeda and Taliban fighters and points to the more than 80,000 soldiers it has deployed along the 2,430-kilometer (1,510-mile) border with Afghanistan.

In 2006, President Pervez Musharraf ordered religious schools to register with the government. A year earlier, he demanded they expel non-Pakistani students, after a U.K. investigation into the 2005 bombings in London showed that at least one of the suicide attackers visited a Pakistani madrassa.

`Ground Zero’

“The ground zero of terrorism has moved from Afghanistan to the tribal areas of Pakistan since 2001,” Rohan Gunaratna, head of the Singapore-based International Centre for Political Violence and Terrorism Research, said by telephone today.

“As long as al-Qaeda and the Taliban maintain a presence in the tribal areas there will be violence, not only in Afghanistan but also in Pakistan and beyond into Europe where there is a large Pakistani diaspora community,” he added.
Gunaratna, the author of “Inside Al-Qaeda: Global Network of Terror,” said the terrorist group had replicated the operational, training and support structures it built in Afghanistan, where it had the protection of the Taliban regime, in Pakistan’s tribal regions.

suicide attacks in afghanistan…checking out the references to pak, is painful. way too many.

http://www.unama-afg.org/docs/_UN-Docs/UNAMA%20-%20SUICIDE%20ATTACKS%20STUDY%20-%20SEPT%209th%202007.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB227/index.htm

Pakistan: “The Taliban’s Godfather”?

Documents Detail Years of Pakistani Support for Taliban, Extremists

Covert Policy Linked Taliban, Kashmiri Militants, Pakistan’s Pashtun Troops

Aid Encouraged Pro-Taliban Sympathies in Troubled Border Region

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 227
Edited by Barbara Elias

Posted – August 14, 2007

A collection of newly-declassified documents published today detail U.S. concern over Pakistan’s relationship with the Taliban during the seven-year period leading up to 9-11. This new release comes just days after Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, acknowledged that, “There is no doubt Afghan militants are supported from Pakistan soil.” While Musharraf admitted the Taliban were being sheltered in the lawless frontier border regions, the declassified U.S. documents released today clearly illustrate that the Taliban was directly funded, armed and advised by Islamabad itself.

Obtained under the Freedom of Information Act by the National Security Archive at George Washington University, the documents reflect U.S. apprehension about Islamabad’s longstanding provision of direct aid and military support to the Taliban, including the use of Pakistani troops to train and fight alongside the Taliban inside Afghanistan. [Doc 17] The records released today represent the most complete and comprehensive collection of declassified documentation to date on Pakistan’s aid programs to the Taliban, illustrating Islamabad’s firm commitment to a Taliban victory in Afghanistan. [Doc 34].

These new documents also support and inform the findings of a recently-released CIA intelligence estimate characterizing Pakistan’s tribal areas as a safe haven for al-Qaeda terrorists, and provide new details about the close relationship between Islamabad and the Taliban in the years prior to the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. Declassified State Department cables and U.S. intelligence reports describe the use of Taliban terrorist training areas in Afghanistan by Pakistani-supported militants in Kashmir, as well as Pakistan’s covert effort to supply Pashtun troops from its tribal regions to the Taliban cause in Afghanistan-effectively forging and reinforcing Pashtun bonds across the border and consolidating the Taliban’s severe form of Islam throughout Pakistan’s frontier region.

Also published today are documents linking Harakat ul-Ansar, a militant Kashmiri group funded directly by the government of Pakistan, [Doc 10] to terrorist training camps shared by Osama bin Laden in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. [Doc 16]

Of particular concern was the potential for Islamabad-Taliban links to strengthen Taliban influence in Pakistan’s tribal regions along the border. A January 1997 cable from the U.S. Embassy in Pakistan observed that “for Pakistan, a Taliban-based government in Kabul would be as good as it can get in Afghanistan,” adding that worries that the “Taliban brand of Islam…might infect Pakistan,” was “apparently a problem for another day.” [Doc 20] Now ten years later, Islamabad seems to be acknowledging the domestic complications that the Taliban movement has created within Pakistan. A report produced by Pakistan’s Interior Ministry and obtained by the International Herald Tribune in June 2007 warned President Pervez Musharraf that Taliban-inspired Islamic militancy has spread throughout Pakistan’s tribal regions and could potentially threaten the rest of the country. The document is “an accurate description of the dagger pointed at the country’s heart,” according to one Pakistani official quoted in the article. “It’s tragic it’s taken so long to recognize it.”

Islamabad denies that it ever provided military support to the Taliban , but the newly-released documents report that in the weeks following the Taliban takeover of Kabul in 1996, Pakistan’s intelligence agency was “supplying the Taliban forces with munitions, fuel, and food.” Pakistan’s Interservice Intelligence Directorate was “using a private sector transportation company to funnel supplies into Afghanistan and to the Taliban forces.” [Doc 15] Other documents also conclude that there has been an extensive and consistent history of “both military and financial assistance to the Taliban.” [Doc 8]

The newly-released documents also shed light on the complexity of U.S. diplomacy with Pakistan as the State Department has struggled to maintain the U.S.-Pakistan alliance amid concerns over the rise of the Taliban regime. In one August 1997 cable, U.S. Ambassador Thomas W. Simons advises, “Our good relations with Pakistan associate us willy-nilly, so we need to be extremely careful about Pakistani proposals that draw us even closer,” adding that, “Pakistan is a party rather than just a mediator [in Afghanistan].” [Doc 24] In another 1997 cable, the Embassy asserts that “the best policy for the U.S. is to steer clear of direct involvement in the disputes between the two countries [Pakistan and Iran], and to continue to work for peace in Afghanistan.” [Doc 22]

As to Pakistan’s end-game in supporting the Taliban, several documents suggest that in the interest of its own security, Pakistan would try to moderate some of the Taliban’s more extreme policies. [Doc 8] But the Taliban have a long history of resistance to external interests, and the actual extent of Pakistani influence over the Taliban during this period remains largely speculative. As the State Department commented in a cable from late-1995, “Although Pakistan has reportedly assured Tehran and Tashkent that it can control the Taliban, we remain unconvinced. Pakistan surely has some influence on the Taliban, but it falls short of being able to call the shots.” [Doc 7]

Highlights

* August 1996: Pakistan Intelligence (ISID) “provides at least $30,000 – and possibly as much as $60,000 – per month” to the militant Kashmiri group Harakat ul-Ansar (HUA). Despite this aid, the group is reaching out to sponsors of international terrorism including Osama bin Laden for additional support, and may in the near future become a threat to Islamabad itself as well as U.S. interests. HUA contacts have hinted they “might undertake terrorist actions against civilian airliners.” [Doc 10]

* October 1996: A Canadian intelligence document released by the National Security Agency and originally classified Top Secret SI, Umbra comments on recent Taliban military successes noting that even Pakistan “must harbour some concern” regarding the Taliban’s impressive capture of Kabul, as such victory may diminish Pakistan’s influence over the movement and produce a Taliban regime in Kabul with strong links to Pakistan’s own Pashtuns. [Doc 14]

* October 1996: Although food supplies from Pakistan to the Taliban are conducted openly through Pakistan’s intelligence agency, the ISID, “the munitions convoys depart Pakistan late in the evening hours and are concealed to reveal their true contents.” [Doc 15]

* November 1996: Pakistan’s Pashtun-based “Frontier Corps elements are utilized in command and control; training; and when necessary – combat” alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan. [Doc 17]

* March 1998: Al-Qaeda and Pakistan government-funded Harakat ul-Ansar (HUA) have been sharing terrorist training camps in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan for years [Link Doc 16], and HUA has increasingly been moving ideologically closer to al-Qaeda. The U.S. Embassy in Islamabad is growing increasingly concerned as Fazlur Rahman Khalil, a leader in Pakistan’s Harakat ul-Ansar has signed Osama bin Laden’s most recent fatwa promoting terrorist activities against U.S. interests. [Doc 26]

* September 1998 [Doc 31] and March 1999 [Doc 33]: The U.S. Department of State voices concern that Pakistan is not doing all it can to pressure the Taliban to surrender Osama bin Laden. “Pakistan has not been responsive to our requests that it use its full influence on the Taliban surrender of Bin Ladin.” [Doc 33]

* September 2000: A cable cited in The 9/11 Commission Report notes that Pakistan’s aid to the Taliban has reached “unprecedented” levels, including recent reports that Islamabad has possibly allowed the Taliban to use territory in Pakistan for military operations. Furthermore the U.S. has “seen reports that Pakistan is providing the Taliban with materiel, fuel, funding, technical assistance and military advisors.” [Doc 34]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pakistani-American_gets_24_years_for_terror_camp_link/articleshow/2357209.cms

Hamid Hayat, who turned 25 on Monday according to reports, was jailed after being found guilty in April 2006 of providing “material support” to Al-Qaeda training in Pakistan and lying about it to FBI agents.

US District court Judge Galand Burrell said Hayat, a US citizen had “attended a terroist training camp, returned to the United States ready and willing to wage violent jihad when directed to do so.

During his trial, prosecutors alleged Hayat had trained with militants in Pakistan and planned an attack in the United States.

He purportedly had the blessing and support of his father, Umer Hayat, an ice cream vendor from the Californian city of Lodi, according to prosecutors. Charges against Umer were dropped last year.

The probe into the Hayats sprang from a wider investigation into the 2,500-strong Pakistani community in Lodi, a region best known for farming and wine-growing just outside Sacramento.

…and i give up. this is getting way too tiring, there are so many reports that my fingers hurt. what was the point of this again, unless you were in some rain forest and didnt know what was happening in the world?

The point is when US investigator in Guantanamo Bay could’nt find anything even after 5 years, what you will find just by sitting on your PC. You have more resources than CIA to make these claims? Just sixty years ago they were from india. What about if I call them Indian origin? Or what about myself, should I call myself as an indian origin? What about all other muslims in Pakistan? Oh, I did’nt know all those fascists, extremists are indian origin. My mom and dad were born in India.

sixty years back you were indeed indian. your parents, if they retain their identity as indian are welcome. so are you. but heres the issue, your fellow citizens dont call themselves indian. frankly didnt they create their own country and declare themselves pakistani? because we were unworthy of you? a few posts back, werent you telling me how bad hindus were! and how pak needed its nukes to protect itself from “hindu fanatics” just because i had the temerity to disagree with your beliefs of an idyllic pakistan & islam which have no basis in reality?

why is it that now the whole world is looking askance at pak, the indian identity comes to the fore?

why sir, is that? kindly understand- the indian govt and indians like me didnt set up terror camps, create an entire state apparatus of exporting suicide bombers, radical islam to the world.

why should we now bear the opprobrium that is pakistans and pakistans alone?

pakistanis fought for your country, to be different than us indians, they have their new identity. they are welcome to it. please leave india out of it.

this when pakistan has used those same camps, those same jihadis to attack my fellow citizens, hindu and muslim and sikh and everyone?!

Yes, this has nothing to do with Pakistan. The most that can be said is that it has to do with a group of people who may have extremist ideology. And these extremists happen to be in Pakistan because of Afghan war. That is all, nothing more nothing less.

sir, it has everything to do with pakistan. ever since its foundation, evil india and its “conniving hindus” have been painted in the most lurid colors, been attacked non stop by pakistans rentier jihadis.

and now you tell us that it was just a game and they just “happened to be in pak”! well sure- but please do tell that to all the above chaps!

you might be an exception to the rule who is still comfortable with being an indian (though you are very hostile to any critique of islam) – your fellow paks are definitely not.

and please- the extremists in pak are not there because of the afghan war, they are there since inception since successive pak govts created them as a way to bleed india dry.

the afghan war just made them scale up.

heres another reason:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=1f41bd91-556e-4987-89c6-d592a9f80bb4

Published: Friday, September 21, 2007
Khalid Awan had a reputation as an international man of mystery.

Born in Pakistan on Jan. 15, 1962, he later immigrated to Canada where he opened an immigration consulting business near Toronto. He carried a card saying he was a member of the Karachi Bar Association.
He expanded into the U.S., spending much of his time in New York, though maintaining contact with his sisters in Montreal.

Awan’s legal woes across the 49th parallel began when he was arrested after 9/11 for federal credit card fraud charges.

While incarcerated at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, he chatted up fellow prisoners about his close ties to the Khalistan Commando Force (KCF) and in particular Paramjit Singh Panjwar, who is one of India’s 10 most wanted fugitives.

He tried to recruit one of those men into the group, urging him to make contact with Panjwar once he was out of jail.

But the would-be recruit went to police instead and the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force launched a probe in 2003. Awan was captured on wiretaps talking about his support for the terrorist group. He even called Panjwar in Pakistan from the detention centre.

Other New York fundraisers for the Khalistan group cooperated with police and testified against Awan.

They all said they would collect thousands of dollars and then give it to Awan to send to Pakistan. They knew it was to be used for “the KCF’s ongoing attacks in India, including bombings of buildings and bridges in Punjab, Delhi and Uttar Pradesh.”

After money arrived in Pakistan, Panjwar would call the U.S. and confirm its receipt. He described Awan to one of the witnesses as “a good friend” and “trustworthy.”

“At one meeting, Awan showed photographs of himself and Panjwar and explained that he and Panjwar were very good friends.”

Snapshots seized from Awan’s Garden City, N.Y., residence were entered as exhibits at his trial, showing Panjwar sitting cross-legged on the floor in Pakistan, flanked by supporters, sharing biscuits and a cup of tea.

The indiscreet Canadian recounted dinners he had with Panjwar and members of Pakistan’s Intelligence Service, known as the ISI, which has long supported Sikh separatist groups.

“According to Awan, at one of the meetings an ISI colonel praised Awan for his work, calling him a ‘silent mujahid’ or silent warrior,” the court document says.

“Awan also explained that in addition to KCF leader Panjwar and Pakistani ISI officers, these meetings included Ameer Ul-Azeem, a leader of Jamaat-e-Islam, a fundamentalist political party.”

Awan also sent another man to travel with him to Pakistan “to meet Panjwar and receive military training in weapons and explosives at a KCF training camp.”

The court heard that while Awan is Muslim, he worked with Sikh separatists because destabilizing India would help the Pakistani cause in the disputed state of Kashmir.

While much of the case built against Awan came from his indiscreet phone calls and associates who cooperated with police, the 45-year-old provided some of the most damning evidence against himself in a February 2006 interview with U.S. agents.

“Awan told the agents that he had transferred $60,000 to $70,000 (to Panjwar),” the court was told. “Awan said he knew the money ‘was going to be used for bad things’ which Awan described as ‘shooting and killing of innocent people . . . in India.’

“Awan told agents that he was friends with Panjwar because Panjwar was a terrorist. He also said that he knew the KCF killed people in India and described the methods that the KCF used to smuggle terrorists into India to conduct the attacks.”

as the above shows, pakistanis have developed their own identity…thanks so much!

One more irrelevant post

Towards homemade science

PUNE: Top scientists from the defence research and development organisation (DRDO) and key public sector undertakings (PSUs) converged in the city on Friday to discuss India’s ongoing effort at indigenously developing air breathing engines like the supersonic combustion ramjet (SCRAMJET).

The meet, hosted by the Defence Institute of Advanced Technology (DIAT), assumes significance against the backdrop of India’s ambitious plans for lunar mission, besides the need for developing air breathing propulsions for supersonic cruise missiles like the BrahMos.

Indian space research organisation (ISRO) is already working on a revolutionary, ‘reusable launch vehicle’ (RLV) that will use a scramjet hyperplane for the lunar mission.

Air breathing rocket systems are the ones which use the atmospheric oxygen from their surroundings and burn it with the stored on-board fuel for producing the forward thrust in contrast to the conventional chemical rocket systems, which carry both the oxygen and the fuel on-board. As a result, the air breathing systems become much lighter and more efficient leading to reduced overall costs.

The scramjet propulsion is seen by the scientific community as a viable technology to overcome the high-costs involved in the existing space transport system that use conventional chemical rocket systems for propulsion. Scramjet provides the advantage of operating at speeds in excess of Mach 10, which is higher than Mach 3 attained by aircraft turbojets.

While the United States is regarded as having gained an upper hand in the development of scramjet, countries like India, Japan, China, Russia and Australia, among others, have launched efforts of their own on this front.

“There are issues that need a wider discussion in the ongoing effort for development of scramjet systems,” G.C. Pant, dean (academics) at the DIAT, told TOI. “Issues such as identification and use of specific materials, instrumentation, utility of computational fluid dynamics and tests, among others, require apt deliberations,” said Pant. “We are not far behind the US in terms of materials technology. Be it titanium alloy, carbon or carbon metal technologies,” he pointed out.

Last year, the National committee for air breathing engines (NCABE) had organised an international meet at the DIAT to bring out the developments in air breathing propulsions used for powering aircraft and missile systems.

“In all, 68 papers were presented by leading scientists,” Pant said and added that Friday’s national workshop was a follow up action of the international meet. The attendance read a virtual who’s who of the Indian DRDO establishment as well as PSUs.

They were: Valliappan Chockalingam from the BrahMos; G. Malkondaiah from the Defence materials research laboratory (DMERL); P. Mustafa from Hindustan Aeronautical Limited; J.J. Isaac from the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL); R. Ramanujachari from the DRDL; T. Mohana Rao from the Gas Turbine Research Laboratory (GTRL); and DIAT vice-chancellor Air Vice Marshal Rajiv Sharma, among others.

Apart from scramjet and BrahMos, the discussions focused on materials development, modern measurement techniques for gas turbine engines, interface of research and development (R&D) with production agencies, societal benefits and testing and maintenance.

About India interfering in the LTTE issues! Well off-course they interfered, pissed sh!t out of us etc, etc, but then again India wouldn’t have had a real reason to interfere if the butcher SL Govt. of 1983 hadn’t massacred innocent Tamils, destroyed their property etc. I was a witness to that pathetic scene in 1983 as a 4 year old. And no! I am not a Tamil, I am Sinhalese by ethnicity (which I really don’t give a F++K about), but more importantly I am a Buddhists!.

Irony is, Indian Govt is doing business, selling arms and what not with the people who are still killing Tamils. So when indians were wrong, then or now?

kindly stay off calling all those who dont share your pov as hindu extremists either.

that, if you actually believe in what you said above, and it wasnt for public consumption.

So the mob that goes on killing frenzy should not be dubbed as extremist? Sorry Sir always thought you do not condone murder and killing which is exactly what i was refering to.

QSaark,

knock yourself out. like i said, of pakistani origin or trained/having links to pak.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1693739,00.html
happy, now? of pakistani origin, get trained in pakistan, and the fourth non pakistani visits pakistan for r&r and motivational therapy etc
of course you knew this before. deny, deny, deny.

Not really, only four. Four terrorists ring no bell that an entire country or a whole religion is terrorist. Statistically, this is simply not significant. If you try to publish a paper in peer reviewed journal, with these figures, it wont be accepted. And by the way, they were UK passport holder. This was not the responsibility of Pakistan Govt to see for what they were visiting Pakistan. This is a failure of British govt that they did’nt keep check on their citizens activity.

Blame it on my bad english :p
By similar animals i did mean taliban types i have debating with in Pakistan. If you still think i was calling you animal and what not then i would unconditionally appologize for any heart burn. It’s just a forum after all and i do not come here for name calling.

kindly stay off calling all those who dont share your pov as hindu extremists either.

that, if you actually believe in what you said above, and it wasnt for public consumption.

oh wow! did they arrive from china? let me see- they are of pakistani origin, they went to pakistan for training, the uk govt asked pakistan to check out these guys and then you say they had nothing to do with pakistan??
whom are you kidding qsaark?

Go ahead and show me the figures. You have magnified things to a level that is unimaginable. After talking so much, two incidents. The point is when US investigator in Guantanamo Bay could’nt find anything even after 5 years, what you will find just by sitting on your PC. You have more resources than CIA to make these claims? Just sixty years ago they were from india. What about if I call them Indian origin? Or what about myself, should I call myself as an indian origin? What about all other muslims in Pakistan? Oh, I did’nt know all those fascists, extremists are indian origin. My mom and dad were born in India.

Yes, this has nothing to do with Pakistan. The most that can be said is that it has to do with a group of people who may have extremist ideology. And these extremists happen to be in Pakistan because of Afghan war. That is all, nothing more nothing less.

QSaark,

knock yourself out. like i said, of pakistani origin or trained/having links to pak.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1693739,00.html

The London bombers
By Russell Jenkins, Dominic Kennedy, David Lister and Carol Midgley of The Times and Times Online

SHEHZAD TANWEER, ALDGATE

He may have been a good-looking, sporty lad with a lean physique and fashionably dyed hair but Shehzad Tanweer had no interest in chasing girls and was happier devoting his spare time to prayers.

In the past six months the 22-year-old suicide bomber had travelled to Pakistan and Afghanistan, bringing him into contact with al-Qaeda trainers and propagandists. In his final months, the cricket and ju-jitsu enthusiast, nicknamed “Khaka”, was said to have turned into a quiet loner, always politely eschewing company by saying he was on his way to a mosque or a prayer meeting.

An uncle, Bashir Ahmed, 52, said he feared that the large, close, extended family would now have to leave Leeds, the city they have made home for a generation after leaving the Faisalabad area of Pakistan for a better life. Mr Ahmed, speaking outside the fish-and-chip shop run by Shehzad’s father, Mumtaz, said the young man had done a “terrible thing”. But he did not blame his nephew for the bombing, saying instead that it was the fault of “forces behind him”.

He said: “Shehzad had never been in trouble before. So what drove him to do it? It can’t be him. It must be something else behind him.

“It has come as a complete shock. He was respected by everybody and respected everybody in return. We were respected by the community — but how is the community going to treat us now?”

Shehzad never expressed an interest in politics but was a devout Muslim. Saj, a friend bearing an Arabic-script tattoo on his arm, said Shehzad “was a quiet lad, religious. He used to go to every mosque in Beeston and there are loads of mosques around here.”

Mahmood Khan, who worked in the chip shop, South Leeds Fisheries, said: “Shehzad was very religious. He used to go to the mosque a lot. He didn’t like girls. He didn’t have many friends but he was a nice, quiet person.”

Shehzad, who lived at 51 Colwyn Road, Beeston, used to volunteer to play sports with children at a local community centre.

In the period leading to his death, Shehzad and a friend left Leeds for days at a time, but nobody knew the purpose or destination of their travels.

Arif Butt, a community elder at Stratford Street mosque, said: “I feel for all the family. They are a very well-respected family. Shehzad’s father is a very well-respected businessman.”

MOHAMMAD SIDIQUE KHAN, EDGWARE ROAD

Mohammad Sidique Khan had a trusted job as a primary school teaching assistant working with children from poor and vulnerable families arriving in Britain.

Khan, 30, who ran an Islamic bookshop, was employed as a “learning mentor” in an inner-city district with a high proportion of asylum-seekers, homeless families and battered wives.

His mother-in-law, a highly respected Asian volunteer worker, was invited to Buckingham Palace to be honoured by the Queen for a lifetime of community work, particularly with women.

Khan was one of two learning mentors employed at Hillside Primary School in Beeston, which had such a high turnover that 75 per cent of pupils could change in a year. His task was to liaise with children’s previous schools on their special needs and to assess their learning skills. On their first day at school, children would rely on Khan, who was their official “buddy”. He was given the privileged position of sitting, with the head teacher, through interviews with new families to the area. Many were single mothers, fresh immigrants, refugees or victims of domestic violence.

In 2002 he gave an interview to The Times Educational Supplement about his unusual job, claiming his role helped children to settle. “A lot of them have said this is the best school they have been to,” he said.

He also gave a fascinating hint of his own smouldering political anger and dissent. As a Beeston resident, he expressed his discontent with the community’s squalor, saying he believed it would be many years before regeneration cash would transform the area.

Khan moved to a council house in Lees Holm, Thornhill, Dewsbury, six months ago and became a liaison officer in another local school. His wife, Hasini Patel, is said to have held anti-Taleban, pro-women views at odds with her husband’s version of Islam. She also worked in education as a “neighbourhood enrichment officer”. They had a baby daughter in May last year. But the pressure on their marriage was too strong and the couple were said to have separated.

They previously lived in Dewsbury, in a bungalow with his mother-in-law, Farida Patel, and members of the extended family. That home was raided by 50 police officers on Tuesday morning. As a dinner lady and sports superviser, Mrs Patel became well known and popular in Dewsbury before her retirement. She also worked as a bi-lingual teacher.

The Patels were known opponents of Muslim extremism and supporters of women’s rights. They have been devastated to learn of Khan’s role.

Khan, born in Leeds, has never been seen in the local Daulim Mosque in Dewsbury and his fanatical religious views have come as a surprise in the locality.

HASIB HUSSAIN, No. 30 BUS

The youngest suicide bomber was sent to his family’s native Pakistan after becoming a troublesome teenager. Hasib Hussain returned a disciplined, chastened young man.
Hussain 18, came from a respectable household in a back-to-back terrace. But he faced a bleak future when his school withdrew him from all GCSE examinations after he went through what was said to be a disruptive stage.

Religion inspired his change of heart. He made the Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca as well as visiting Pakistan. Police will be trying to discover whether Hussain, who blew himself to pieces along with 12 passengers on the No 30 bus in Tavistock Square, adopted his radical views at home or abroad.

Neighbours in the Leeds inner-city community of Holbeck, a poor area behind the central business district by-passed by motorways and fly-overs, were stunned yesterday by the news that he had made the transformation into a suicide bomber.

Before he visited the Middle East, Hussain lived in a close-knit world of friendly faces. He was born on September 16, 1986, into the Victorian redbrick house in Colenso Mount where his family still lives.

Yesterday the area was sealed off by armed police.

He grew up playing football with other children in the back alleys under their mothers’ gaze.

He went to the Ingram Road nursery, around the corner from his home, progressed to the primary school a few yards further away, and then the Matthew Murray high school, renamed South Leeds High School. None was more than a five-minute walk from the house of his parents, Mahmoor and Maniza.

His journey always took him past the corner shop run by Ajimal Singh, who looked drawn and saddened yesterday. “He used to come in here for sweets and pop when he was a schoolboy,” Mr Singh said. “He is from a very good local family. He has a brother who is a very nice man.”

South Leeds High School said, in a statement through Leeds Council: “He was a good attender and there is nothing unusual about his school records except he was withdrawn by the school from all of his GCSEs, except GNVQ business studies.”

Hasib used to make a seemingly unnecessary 20-mile round trip to Dewsbury to worship. Mohammad Sidique Khan, the oldest suicide bomber, had a home in the town.

Last week Hussain, who was unemployed, told relatives that he was going to London to attend a religious lecture. When he failed to return, his family, frantic with worry and in complete ignorance of his mission, contacted the police casualty bureau to report him as a missing person.

His driving licence and cash cards were found in the wreckage of the bombed-out bus. The find led police to the Leeds suicide bomb cell.

JERMAINE LINDSAY, KING’S CROSS

Jermaine Lindsay, believed to be in his late 20s, died when he detonated his rucksack bomb as the southbound train pulled out of King’s Cross, killing at least 26 people and himself.

Scotland Yard said that forensic material had been recovered in the painstaking underground operation going on beneath King’s Cross. Thee fourth bomber was not Ejaz Fiaz, as has wrongly been reported.

Lindsay had been living in a rented house in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, for only a short time before embarking on what he will have believed to be his martyrdom mission.

His wife, who is believed to be called Samantha, is a white woman said to have converted to Islam in the past two years. She is thought to have changed her name to Sherafiyah. The couple had a young daughter. His appearance in the jigsaw of how this terrorist operation was planned and executed also answers some questions.

It explains why the three bombers from Leeds travelled south by car instead of taking a train directly to King’s Cross. Lindsay’s home in Aylesbury is 20 miles from Luton, where the West Indian Muslim met his Pakistani co-conspirators early last Thursday morning.

Their controllers will have wanted the four to meet, to say a prayer, strengthen each other’s resolve and synchronise their watches before setting off to London.

Lindsay, who is believed to have Islamicised his name after his religious conversion and to have called himself Jamal, was said to have been seen in Leeds with some of the other bombers. He came and went, was introduced as a friend and is believed to have lived for short periods at one of the properties being searched in Leeds. He shared that property with a man whom the police would like to question and who is thought to be overseas.

Security sources are investigating the likelihood that Lindsay first met his Leeds contacts during a trip to a madrassa, or religious school, in Pakistan. Two of the Leeds bombers, Shehzad Tanweer and Hasib Hussain, are known to have visited Pakistan to pursue religious instruction.

They may also, however, have taken instruction from clerics in Britain who then recommended madrassas in Pakistan.

Outwardly, for the last few weeks before his death, Lindsay lived a contented, family life. A neighbour said: “It was a normal family house and he seemed nice to speak to. I have not seen him for well over a week but there was nothing to suggest anything odd was happening.”

The neigbour’s partner, who also did not want to be named, added: “They moved in about six months ago and were going to renew their contract. It just goes to show you don’t know what goes on behind closed doors.” Those doors were smashed open night by a team of more than 40 police officers, some armed. They found the house empty.

Although the family had been in the area for several months they had not mixed with the rest of the Muslim community in Aylesbury, which is a town with a fast-growing multi-faith population. Of its 65,000 residents, about 5,000 are Muslim.

happy, now? of pakistani origin, get trained in pakistan, and the fourth non pakistani visits pakistan for r&r and motivational therapy etc

of course you knew this before. deny, deny, deny.

i have and it was clear whom you called what and
have you stopped beating your wife farooq?

good, set up a loaded question and then ask me to defend it! wonderful!

ah, but you said you were dealing with similar animals on your side.
good show.

frankly, spare me the platitudes dude.

Blame it on my bad english :p
By similar animals i did mean taliban types i have debating with in Pakistan. If you still think i was calling you animal and what not then i would unconditionally appologize for any heart burn. It’s just a forum after all and i do not come here for name calling.