Indian Navy oders six Scorpène Submarines

Stop the frigging flamming. 😡

I second this motion.

Stop the frigging flamming. 😡

Bager visit the following link for a perpetual IN thread…minus luminaries like star49
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=3

HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!!! 😡 😡 😡 😡

proquest article does not mean that is credible.
use ur head.
how can Pak started construction of 3rd submarine before it even receive the first one from France? First u have to built infrastructure for submarine building than Train crews for that on first and second submarine than u can start ur own 3rdsubmarine.. but i dont think this simple logic can be put ur head. just like ur banging on F-22P armament from unofficial sources when later BABUR was shown.

lmao proquest not credible , as i said if you dont think that credible look jane’s fighting ships i am pretty sure it says 1997 there as well. Anyway what has f-22p have to do with this and besides that info was from kanwa if i recall correctly which you guys say is credible when it comes to any other info. Anyway i am pretty sure you are posting just to start flame war. If you have any evidence to back your claim post it, otherwise dont come with BS statements and waste my time along with others.

Edit:self-edited

lmao more display of stupidity from our beloved oracle, can u actually read english? were does it say the third submarine has yet to be constructed genius, that statement is just recapping on what agreement was. So by your logic the first and second agosta werent built as well in 2002 :rolleyes: because it says

In fact it even says the trials are to be set in 2004 for 3rd agosta even thou according to you construction hasnt started, so somehow pakistan can built and launch a submarine in 2 years by your logic right eh.

Anyway plz dont waste my time or bandwith by posting more rubbish and insanse analogys, unless you have strong evidence to prove me wrong which states when Hamza was launched and its construction date like i have here. This from proquest 2002 article:

proquest article does not mean that is credible.
use ur head.
how can Pak started construction of 3rd submarine before it even receive the first one from France? First u have to built infrastructure for submarine building than Train crews for that on first and second submarine than u can start ur own 3rdsubmarine.. but i dont think this simple logic can be put ur head. just like ur banging on F-22P armament from unofficial sources when later BABUR was shown.

Huh? Who says you need to come here to keep abreast of whats happening in the IN. You can read and systematically discuss whats happening in the IN on BRF (frankly you will have to seriously justify whats happening in PN to really keep our attention). You come here to be entertained not to be informed. Any forum that lets luminaries like the oracle have a free hand is not really worth reading. The only redeeming thing about AFM is that amongst all the jihadi noise you can still pick up a few good tid bits and some international perspective (read non madrassa) on some of the subcontinents events.

YOu really give AFM Forums more credit than is due. You want intelligent debate you need to go elsewhere.

And so another potentially informative thread degenerates into another infantile flame war!!!

I have long had an interest in the affairs of both the Indian and Pakistani Navies, and once upon a time had thought to use this forum to keep updated on them.

However, it has been a while since I bothered looking at any thread dealing with either country’s Navy, Army, or Air Force, due to the compulsive flaming conducted by citizens of both countries.

I only read this one because it was new, and I had hoped to learn something before the childish name-calling began, but here we are….. 4 days into the discussion, and the tantrums have already started!

Is this something genetic, that makes impossible the posting of more than a given number of replies without taking a shot at the other country?

It matters not who started it this time, both have started their share of flaming, and with many different culprits for each nationality.

While I was raised to respect all cultures and races for their own unique virtues and differences, my opinion and viewpoint of both Pakistanis and Indians has been severely degraded by the uncontrolled and undisciplined conduct displayed by both nationalities on this forum!

I find myself losing hope that a Nuclear War can be avoided between them if there is this degree of unreasoning, blind, compulsive hatred between their peoples.

There is a saying, that reasonable people can solve problems without resorting to violence, but it now appears doubtful that either people is capable of reason concerning the other, since even when discussing their own affairs they cannot keep from defaming the other!

read this report. it was from official ISPR and they state in early 2002 that third submarine is yet to be constructed. JDW report has no credility as far as this matter is concerned.

lmao more display of stupidity from our beloved oracle, can u actually read english? were does it say the third submarine has yet to be constructed genius, that statement is just recapping on what agreement was. So by your logic the first and second agosta werent built as well in 2002 :rolleyes: because it says

Commodore Bashir said under a deal, made by Pakistan for purchase of
Agosta submarines, it had been decided that the first submarine would be
constructed in France, while the French and Pakistani experts would build the second submarine jointly. The third submarine, under the terms of the agreement, was to be constructed in Pakistan for which the DCN, the manufacturers, would transfer complete technology, he added.

In fact it even says the trials are to be set in 2004 for 3rd agosta even thou according to you construction hasnt started, so somehow pakistan can built and launch a submarine in 2 years by your logic right eh.

The third Agosta “B”, to be built in Pakistan after transfer of
technology, was expected to be ready for trials by the end of 2004, he said.

Anyway plz dont waste my time or bandwith by posting more rubbish and insanse analogys, unless you have strong evidence to prove me wrong which states when Hamza was launched and its construction date like i have here. This from proquest 2002 article:

The third unit, the Hamza, is being fabricated at Karachi Naval Shipyard in Pakistan. The Khalid was laid down on July 15, 1995, was launched on August 13, 1998, and entered service on September 13, 1999. The second unit was considered to have had its keel laid in June 1998. The launch date for the second unit had been anticipated for sometime during 2001, with an in-service date of February 2002. This was delayed by a variety of factors, the last being the assassination of the 11 French engineers. The hull sections for the second unit were shipped on April 29,1998. The third unit of this class was laid down on January 3, 1997, with an in-service date of 2006.

read this report. it was from official ISPR and they state in early 2002 that third submarine is yet to be constructed. JDW report has no credility as far as this matter is concerned.

Source: Business Recorder, Jan 25, 2002

I don’t buy it the French will transfter technology of Agosta90B to India. You know what the French did to Israel and Taiwan. They say “read my lips” but they aren’t man of word.

sigh OFT but how many times do i have to repost the link over and over again construction of 3rd agosta started 1997 currently dcn is “hopeful” that it will completed by end of 07 (even thou it hasnt even be launched yet), 97 to 07 so that makes it what 10+ yrs?

read this report. it was from official ISPR and they state in early 2002 that third submarine is yet to be constructed. JDW report has no credility as far as this matter is concerned.

Source: Business Recorder, Jan 25, 2002

RAWALPINDI : The second Agosta-90 Bravo submarine will be ready for
trials in the next two months and will be commissioned in the Pakistan Navy
immediately after the trials, a top Naval official said.

“The third sub would be put to trial after successful trials of the
second submarine”, Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Operations), Commodore
Noman Bashir, said while answering questions during the concluding session of a two-day workshop for defence correspondents, arranged by the
Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) here.

He said the second Agosta-90 “B” submarine was jointly being
constructed at Pakistan Navy Dockyard in Karachi by Pakistani and French experts.

The first submarine, named “PNS-Khalid” had been commissioned in the
navy in last quarter of 1999, he said.

“The first submarine, commissioned into the navy way back in 1999, met
all our expectations and the project has been progressing satisfactorily,” he
said.

Commodore Bashir said under a deal, made by Pakistan for purchase of
Agosta submarines, it had been decided that the first submarine would be
constructed in France, while the French and Pakistani experts would build the second submarine jointly. The third submarine, under the terms of the agreement, was to be constructed in Pakistan for which the DCN, the manufacturers, would transfer complete technology, he added.

The third Agosta “B”, to be built in Pakistan after transfer of
technology, was expected to be ready for trials by the end of 2004, he said.

Though Pakistani experts would a build the third submarine, the navy
would have, at its disposal, advisory service of the DCN, he said.

Commodore Bashir said the navy would also be able to export Agosta subs
to friendly countries after it achieved full expertise in manufacturing
the ship.

He confirmed that a number of coastal navies in Gulf region had shown
interest in purchasing small submarines (midgets) from Pakistan. “We are fully
capable to construct these small submarines.

“Knowing this capability of ours, the neighbouring as well as other
friendly countries have not only shown interest to buy midgets, but they are
also interested in placing orders for construction of Agosta- 90 “B”
submarines from Pakistan”, he said.-PPI

who is saying 3 bil. the media is reporting 1.5 bil – 2.1 bil depending on who u ask!

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=102068

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_10-9-2005_pg7_2

1.5 bill-2.1 bill is what IN will pay to dcn another 1.2 billion or 200 million per sub has been allocated for license production costs so total procurment cost wiil be around 3 billion, assuming there is no cost overruns which is rarity in any IN construction project.

Well the IN needs some new subs fast. Hope they go in for indigenous development of a new sub once the scorpene line starts. High time the Indians honed their skills on this front. They have tried their hand at everything else. Now that the ATV is being built think they have the skills required to develop a conventional sub,

who is saying 3 bil. the media is reporting 1.5 bil – 2.1 bil depending on who u ask!

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=102068

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_10-9-2005_pg7_2

I am unable to locate it but their was a reference somewhere that France was interested in developing a sub-launched version of Apache- storm Shadow. IAF also has a requirement for around 100 missiles of 200km range. So future developments are going to be intersting.

I think the only reason the formal annoucement is being withheld is that Indian PM is going to ask for some important quid pro which requires high level discussion.

It must be remembered that if France gets this 6 sub order then another 4 is also highly likely. Not to mention that some equipment will get diverrted to ATV. So this is a very big stake order for France.

The price for 6 subs that US$ 3 Billion seems too high, I would put it around US $ 1.8-2.2 Billion. Lets see what next week holds

2012 or 2112 what diff does it make to star49? Scorpenes are for dealing with dragon. I got this cached report from google (paksearch.com) which says 3rd A90 was supposed to be commissioned in 2002 😀
—
19991221

Agosta 90-B commissioning today

KARACHI: Chief Executive Gen. Pervez Musharraf will be the chief guest at the commissioning ceremony of the first state-of-the-art French Agosta 90-B submarine of Pakistan Navy PNS-M Khalid at the Pakistan Naval Dockyard in Karachi on December 21.

The Agosta 90-B submarine,a faster and deeper diving vessel, incorporates improvement based on the experience gained by the French Navy and new advances in endurance, acoustic discretion, propulsion and diving capability. The vessel of an overall length of 67 metres, having submerged speed of 40 knots 😀 , can dive deep more than 300 metres, while its sub-surface endurance capability is of over 60 days.

The fully integrated combat system of the submarine enables the commanding officer to quickly evaluate its tactical situation and decide on an appropriate response. The submarine could be equipped to launch multipurpose torpedoes and Exocet SM-39 sub-launched anti-ship missiles.

Pakistan had signed an agreement of nearly one billion US dollars with Direction des Constructions Navales DCN International of France in 1994 for the purchase of three Agosta 90-B submarines alongwith transfer of technology.

During the construction of the first Agosta 90-B submarine, engineers and technicians of Pakistan Navy have been given special training including transfer of technology in France so that Pakistan achieves self-sufficiency in construction of submarines.

The second Agosta 90-B submarine is currently under construction by Pakistan Navy’s engineers and technicians with the help of French engineers at Naval Dockyard in Karachi and would be inducted in Pakistan Naval Fleet in early year 2001. Work on the construction of the third submarine is also underway at the

Naval Dockyard here and would be commissioned in the year 2002.

10 years for 3rd augusta? from where this nonsense comes from? the deal was signed in october 1993. so it is 12 year for the whole deal. and Pak has zero ability at that time to understake project of this magnitude. i bet India cannot build faster than this even now.

sigh OFT but how many times do i have to repost the link over and over again construction of 3rd agosta started 1997 currently dcn is “hopeful” that it will completed by end of 07 (even thou it hasnt even be launched yet), 97 to 07 so that makes it what 10+ yrs?

the point is not about approving a project but actually building the final product. i cant see first one coming out before 2012 if the deal is actually signed now. also there is difference between timeline written in contract and actual progress.

agosta90 is 15years older than scorpene design and has a different lineage from old agosta family of 70s. the hull shape is outdated compared to new SSK designs.

Scorpene came out of rubis amethyste SSN design and is pretty much up there with the U214 yardstick as the two most sophisticated large SSKs on the market presently.

I will grant that pakistan is among the fastest in the world at approving projects like the army chief who musharaff busted recently for buying al-khalid TI kits in a 15-day decision cycle. its your country and your life to run, no comments there.

dont pollute this thread though.

Who cares about Agosta-90B , these are two different generation of subs , the first scorpene will start rolling out by 2009 , India already has experience in building modern subs in the form of 209 , so it will help things roll out faster.

Every one know the Navy needs the subs faster so the sense of urgency is there.