Indian Space & Missile Discussion

Fresh anti-ballistic missile tests soon
Aditya Phatak / DNA
Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:58 IST

Mumbai: Fresh tests of the endo-atmospheric anti-ballistic missile system may be conducted in December-January, VK Saraswat, scientific advisor to the defence minister, said on Wednesday.

“The first phase of the missile defence shield has been going on for years now and fresh tests are likely in December-January,” he said at a seminar on fuel cell technology.

The Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), which Saraswat heads, aims to develop interceptors that can destroy intermediate-range ballistic missiles. In phase-II, DRDO will develop missiles to neutralise inter-continental ballistic missiles. The phase, however, is in the design stage.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_fresh-anti-ballistic-missile-tests-soon_1310453

I agree about KALI- that would be great, and about Phalanx type things, we should look into Kashtan with the Russians. Of course, I’d rather the Tatas built it with DRDO/BEL, rather than the OFB being the prime manufacturer, which will be least bothered about developing it further.

I would just love to see the capability in the Indian Army i think it would save a lot of lives if our Jeeps had a phalanx on them or our pill box’s had land based phalanx. It would not be 100% efficient but when random mortors rain down on the IA or borderline villages every little helps.

What about a networked array of Phalanx in the Kashmir mountain border lands remotely operated with IR cams and MMW RADARS (or terrahertz imaging). Infiltration? What infiltration?

I do belive these kinds of “smaller” systems could be more useful/$ to India than some of the bigger ticket items.

It is odd, it was also odd that the US would do a BMD workshop with Indian scientists around the same time as when India was pondering whether it could buy the Arrow system or not.

Thats not really odd – basically we’ve declared we’re still open to cooperation in BMD if its worth it. Hence the briefings from LM on the PAC system etc. BTW, the PAC et al are still being proposed as interim choices for a rough and quick BMD system.

Barak NG. MR SAM LR SAM might be a way of risk reduction for PAD. India needs missile defense and its only going to be a good thing if there are two systems that can hit missiles..

To some extent yes, but the PAD will be far more capable. The MR/LRSAM are going to have limited capability against faster TBMs let alone the longer ranged systems. These are primarily missiles designed for highly maneuverable airbreathing systems. The PAD/AAD combo is designed for high speed, B’ missile RCS targets.

We have all been reading about the green pine for some time now and 3D car etc etc etc..

GreenPine is just one of those things the media loves to trot out whenever the Indo Israel thing pops up since we purchased a couple as part of the LRTR deal apparently. The 3D CAR is not anyways related to Israel. Its antenna hardware was developed with PIT & the Rohini et al have new systems there as well.

One more of these types of technologies that India could really benifit from is the legendary or mythological KALI project or even a Russian/US/Indian/Israeli version of land based phalanx, not sure if Tunguska has the same capabilities (i.e. take out mortors etc..) but it would be great for the western fence and pill boxs dotted around Sikkim and Kashmir.

I agree about KALI- that would be great, and about Phalanx type things, we should look into Kashtan with the Russians. Of course, I’d rather the Tatas built it with DRDO/BEL, rather than the OFB being the prime manufacturer, which will be least bothered about developing it further.

I’d like to see DID (Defind daily’s) source for that report. On the face of it though, it is a bit odd.

Israel does have a shekel budget ie local mil spend which it uses for its local programs & export driven programs, whereas its US $ budget is earmarked for joint ventures, or US mil acquisitions. This is the first I am hearing of it, and it could be that DID is simply playing it fast and loose.

About PAD, it has benefited from the Arrow in a way. India worked with Israel to develop its own “supersized” version of the basic GreenPine, known as the LRTR (Long Range Tracking Radar) with Indian tx/rx modules etc. It has longer range and is able to track faster targets.

The Israelis themselves have also revealed a Super Green pine recently for their Arrow upgrade, 1-2 of which are being sold to South Korea for their proposed national ballistic defense system.

The point to note here is that India went with the LRTR and didnt simply get GP TOT because GP has US IP involved. So the Barak-US link seems odd.

It is odd, it was also odd that the US would do a BMD workshop with Indian scientists around the same time as when India was pondering whether it could buy the Arrow system or not.

Barak NG. MR SAM LR SAM might be a way of risk reduction for PAD. India needs missile defense and its only going to be a good thing if there are two systems that can hit missiles..

We have all been reading about the green pine for some time now and 3D car etc etc etc..

One more of these types of technologies that India could really benifit from is the legendary or mythological KALI project or even a Russian/US/Indian/Israeli version of land based phalanx, not sure if Tunguska has the same capabilities (i.e. take out mortors etc..) but it would be great for the western fence and pill boxs dotted around Sikkim and Kashmir.

I’d like to see DID (Defind daily’s) source for that report. On the face of it though, it is a bit odd.

Israel does have a shekel budget ie local mil spend which it uses for its local programs & export driven programs, whereas its US $ budget is earmarked for joint ventures, or US mil acquisitions. This is the first I am hearing of it, and it could be that DID is simply playing it fast and loose.

About PAD, it has benefited from the Arrow in a way. India worked with Israel to develop its own “supersized” version of the basic GreenPine, known as the LRTR (Long Range Tracking Radar) with Indian tx/rx modules etc. It has longer range and is able to track faster targets.

The Israelis themselves have also revealed a Super Green pine recently for their Arrow upgrade, 1-2 of which are being sold to South Korea for their proposed national ballistic defense system.

The point to note here is that India went with the LRTR and didnt simply get GP TOT because GP has US IP involved. So the Barak-US link seems odd.

I wasnt talking about the Arrow. We looked at the Arrow & the Russian S-300V and went with our own PAD project.

Now where did you read that?
The Barak8/MRSAM/LRSAM are purely Indo-Israeli projects.

Perhaps you mixed it up with the Arrow program which has US funding & technology contribution? :confused:

part of the same report..

i would not be suprised if pad has been helped a bit by arrow

The Navy’s Barak-NG project aimed to give the missiles a much longer reach, with the intention of making it India’s primary naval SAM. The project was later renamed Barak 8, and features funding from American military aid dollars, Indian cooperation, and private/governmental funding in Israel

Well its no secret that Indian was shown the ARROW system.. Would not be suprised if ELTA/IAI etc and India worked to make a version for India or adapted a version for India.

I wasnt talking about the Arrow. We looked at the Arrow & the Russian S-300V and went with our own PAD project.

What suprises me about the above report is that there is US funding in the Israeli-Indian Joint venture.. how did that get squeezed in and how much control does that money actually give the US?

Now where did you read that?
The Barak8/MRSAM/LRSAM are purely Indo-Israeli projects.

Perhaps you mixed it up with the Arrow program which has US funding & technology contribution? :confused:

Barak 8 is the Israeli designation for the common missile and apparently the system itself, at least the land based one.

But the systems differ in terms of capabilities. The original is the LRSAM for the Navy. It combines a four sided 2248 Elta AESA with the 70 km Barak missile and assorted C3I gear. This was the 2006 contract.

The next project is the MRSAM for the AF. It involves a new AESA, a single sided rotating derivative of the 2248 being developed with LRDE involvement, called the LB-MF-STAR, and land based battle management systems ie C3I & of course the 70 km Barak missiles themselves, iirc 8pack VLS to a launcher. This was the recent contract.

The Indian side will be deeply involved with the missile itself eg DRDL was supplying the propulsion units per MOD report, the C3I and radar customization, plus assorted systems such as the launcher. The system is likely to be based on some Indian made vehicle platform.

There is also another project which we can infer from public sources but lets leave that aside for now…;)

Well its no secret that Indian was shown the ARROW system.. Would not be suprised if ELTA/IAI etc and India worked to make a version for India or adapted a version for India.

What suprises me about the above report is that there is US funding in the Israeli-Indian Joint venture.. how did that get squeezed in and how much control does that money actually give the US?

Barak 8 is the Israeli designation for the common missile and apparently the system itself, at least the land based one.

But the systems differ in terms of capabilities. The original is the LRSAM for the Navy. It combines a four sided 2248 Elta AESA with the 70 km Barak missile and assorted C3I gear. This was the 2006 contract.

The next project is the MRSAM for the AF. It involves a new AESA, a single sided rotating derivative of the 2248 being developed with LRDE involvement, called the LB-MF-STAR, and land based battle management systems ie C3I & of course the 70 km Barak missiles themselves, iirc 8pack VLS to a launcher. This was the recent contract.

The Indian side will be deeply involved with the missile itself eg DRDL was supplying the propulsion units per MOD report, the C3I and radar customization, plus assorted systems such as the launcher. The system is likely to be based on some Indian made vehicle platform.

There is also another project which we can infer from public sources but lets leave that aside for now…;)

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/india-israel-introducing-mr-sam-03461/

Great article from defense industry daily.

The Barak, and Barak-8

Barak Components
(click to view full)Barak is a supersonic, vertically-launched short range air defense system, with an operational range of about 10 km/ 6 miles. That pushes it past the standard ranges of shoulder-launched options with naval counterparts, like the MBDA Mistral/SIMBAD or Saab Boofors’ RBS-70, but short of other small vertical launch options like the RIM-162 Evolved Sea Sparrow. Its closest western compettors on the international market are probably Raytheon’s horizontally-fired Amero-German RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile, and MBDA’s flexible Crotale VT-1/NG. Key attributes include a compact 8-cell vertical launching system that weighs just 1,700 kg, coupled with an equally compact 1,300 kg fire control system. This makes it easier to instal in small ships, and to retrofit into older vessels.

Snip_______________

The follow-on Barak-8 project involves a land-based system, intended to replace old Russian systems. The DRDO Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will be the ‘prime developer’ for the MR-SAM project, which will reportedly have a Rs 2,300 crore (INR 23 billion, $450 million) indigenous component within an estimated Rs 10,000 crore (INR 100 billion, about $1.93 billion) total. The 4-5 year project aims to provide India’s military with 9 advanced air defense squadrons, each with 2 MR-SAM firing units. Each unit, in turn, would consist of a command and control center, an acquisition radar, a guidance radar, and 3 launchers with eight missiles each. The total would therefore be 10 C2 centers, 18 acquisition radars, 18 guidance radars, and 54 launchers, armed with 432 ready-to-fire missiles.

Israel Aerospace Industries will be the key partner, and will contribute most of the applicable technology, just as Russia did for the BrahMos by offering its SS-N-26 Oniks missile as the base platform. As of its approval by the Cabinet Committee on Security in July 2007, MR-SAM surpasses the BrahMos project in size, and may be the largest joint defense development project ever undertaken between India and any other country.

India Defence reports that IAI and its Israeli partners have agreed to transfer all relevant technologies and manufacturing capabilities to India. Indian sources estimate a 4-year, $300 million System Design & Development phase to develop unique system elements, and produce an initial tranche of the land-based missiles.
_________________________________________________________

One thing did leave me a bit confused is the BARAK 8 the same as the MR SAM?

Is it the one and the same? Why the two contracts one in 2006 and one recently?

Probably they are testing a new version of Agni-II as user trial. Points….

* Can hit targets between 2,000 to 3,500 km with varying payloads.

* Agni-II can carry a nuclear payload of about 1,000 kg to a distance in excess of 2500 km.

* Agni-II is a ready-to-fire missile with a launch time of about 15 minutes.

* Both rail and road mobile options are available. The services can choose which system they want.

* While earlier test versions of the missile had a CEP of ±100 metres, the latest versions will have a CEP of around 30 metres.

* The missile’s re-entry vehicle uses its manoeuvring fins to porpoise the warhead, to avoid missile defences while manoeuvring to its target, employing terminal guidance radar operating in the C- and S-bands.

Agni-II user trial anytime between 3-8 November news
23 October 2009

Balasore, Orissa: Indian defence scientists and Indian Army officials are working towards conducting a user trial of the country’s medium range ballistic missile, the Agni-II, sometime between 3-8 November this year. The Agni-II, a nuclear capable missile, can hit targets beyond 2,000 km and up to a distance of 3,500 km with varying payloads.

”The missile is scheduled to be fired from the Wheelers Island based test range facilities any time between November 3 and 8,” defence sources said.

Agni II
According to scientists, the 700-km range Agni-I along with the 2000+ km range Agni-II and the 3000+ km range Agni-III form the triad of the country’s nuclear deterrence.

The Agni-II missile, whose first operational variant was test-fired in April 1999, is 20-meter long and 1.3 meter in diameter. Weighing 16 tonnes it is designed to carry a nuclear payload of about 1,000 kg to a distance in excess of 2500 km.

The previous user trial conducted on 19 May this year was not a success.

The missile has already been inducted into the Indian Army’s 555 missile group.

Agni-II
Agni-II is a ready-to-fire missile with a launch time of about 15 minutes.

The missile is unique in that its second stage has a flex nozzle which enables small changes in the thrust vector direction in flight allowing far superior manoeuvrability and thrust control than any comparable missiles in its class, including western ones.

The flex nozzle can be exploited with the help of an on-board closed-loop guidance and control system. Till now, the flex nozzle has been used only in the third-stage motor of the PSLV.

The missile’s re-entry vehicle uses its manoeuvring fins to porpoise the warhead, to avoid missile defences while manoeuvring to its target, employing terminal guidance radar operating in the C- and S-bands.

The Agni-II is designed to be launched from a rail-mobile launcher; one that can move on a standard broad-gauge rail system. It is also road-mobile and the services can choose which system they want. A rail- and/or road-based missile system reduces vulnerability and allows for greater operational flexibility.

While India’s is mostly covered with road and rail infrastructure in most parts of the country except the north-east which has more rail and less road infrastructure, the missile’s rail mobility means that in strategic terms its deployment in this part of the country is a serious possibility.

Deployment here will allow the missile to hit deeper into China, though without reaching important city and industrial centres such as Beijing, which are 3000+ km away.

Indian scientists such as BrahMos Aerospace chief Dr A Sivathanu Pillai have said that the missile would have a unique on-board energy management system and an on-flight guidance process using navigational sensor technology.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/miss_muni/20091023_agni-II_user_trial.html

^^
Where would you place Brahmos 2 as a priority, compared to other defense projects?

In the end it all comes down to having enough resources.

quite high. funds are always preferentially allocated to projects that don’t have a chance of an alternative from an international competitor.

but brahmos aerospace would go full throttle for the brahmos-2 only after the pending versions, sub-launched and air-launched brahmos are completed.

India’s nuclear deterrence: myth and reality

India’s nuclear deterrence: myth and reality
Saurav Basu

Pokharan II: The Incestuous Debate

Pokharan II: The Incestuous Debate
PR Chari, Research Professor, Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies

The key to hypersonic missile is it scramjet engine , it would be interesting to see who contributes what , in Brahmos project Russia brought the engine and India the electronic and it was a joint development.

If Russia gets the scramjet engine technology then there will not be much for India there , this time around we should take the lead and develop this technology

^^
Where would you place Brahmos 2 as a priority, compared to other defense projects?

In the end it all comes down to having enough resources.

There is a lot of investment by the Indian side in the local development of capability for hypersonics, both by DRDO & ISRO for their respective programs. The formers efforts will flow directly into the Brahmos-2. The timeframe for the Brahmos 2 is another 5-6 years, as the orders for the current Brahmos missiles themselves will take at least another 3-4 years at the minimum to execute.

Hypersonic cruise missile, I would be concerned with the range. No country has fielded a mach 6-7 cruise missile, so it would new terroritary for Russia and India.

Scramjet planes that are being developed are envisaged to operate in near space atmospheric conditions, where atmosphere is very thin. The Brahmos 2 is likely to operate in lower attitude, where it will meet alot of air resistance. Unless you gonna make it bigger then Brahmos then it would not fit SU 30.

You can talk about hypersonic missile but no evidence to say it will arrive soon. Only positive is the heat resistant materials would only need to withstand one flight, so less then an hour?

Agreed, India has suffered enough due to misplaced pacifism.

To be honest what a lot of people or what of the new generation dont realise that even the followers of gandhi kept great big spears, lathis and swords if ever the situation required!

My grandads arsenal used to fill a room and he was a staunch Ghandi Supporter, (used to spy for Mahatma Ghandi as i am sure many of our ancestors did in those days!)
As they say the centuries copy each other.

With regards to my comments about MTCR and Congress I was just reflecting that of any government who would try by hook or by crook to give India the reach it requires Congress is not the one. It cares and more often than not has cared more about its external image then that of the security of the country.

Maybe with the older SAM networks but with SAM systems being able to detect track and possibly destroy ballistic missiles I have to wonder how much extra help the mach 6-7 would give the Brahmos.

I think the hypersonic Brahmos removes the current S-3XX family from the table. And the Russians are ok with it because they have the S-5XX in development for themselves.

ATBM systems are still limited and very expensive, in the case of Asia only a handful of countries field something similar or are working on something similar – only the US provided ship based systems are somewhat mature against a threat of this caliber in terms of speed.

That apart, the key difference is that this is a cruise missile not a BM, its trajectory can vary by leaps and bounds depending on the mission planning, whereas Ballistic Missiles (even the manouevering warheads) dont have that much leeway, and the Brahmos can undertake its final run on a low flying trajectory, complicating interception, again which is not possible for a ballistic missile.

Feels like the longer range would be better, but I guess India (congress in particular) can not do anything about the MTCR.

P.s. I am not paranoid about any country, I am a realist and have read up enough history to know that when there is a change in power balance there is normally a war and when one nations resources are tight there is normally some form of con-flab with its neighbours. History has proved this again and again, its not paranoia to be prudent and give the due diligence required.

Agreed, India has suffered enough due to misplaced pacifism.