Indian Space/Missile News/Discussion – III

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I thought the ‘why’ was obvious. Prithvi was a missile that was developed and deployed in large part for the nuclear delivery role. That it can also carry conventional warheads is besides the point. You launch the Prithvi, there’s a high chance the enemy will not want to take chances, will assume it carries a nuclear payload and launch a retaliatory nuclear strike.

the answer is to simply make it clear that prithvi is for the conventional role, and agni/shourya for strategic. do the message right, take the confusion out. prithvi may have been developed for multiple roles to begin with, but why replace a missile which excels in one role still when other options are available to take over the strategic one.

The risk is less with a smaller missile like Prahaar which has been specificially developed for an ATACMS-style conventional artillery role.

nothing like that per se. if the enemy sees a 100 prahars or fifty prithvis heading towards different targets within a few minutes of conflict, the “risk” is the same. which is why india has dwelt extensively on NFU.
NFU gives india the edge by dictating terms of escalation in a war. but its flip side is it exposes us to irrational strike first, win the hand sort of thinking.
either way, deterrence issues apart, changing missiles – especially one which works – is not necessary to clarify deterrence.

if the prithvi was a kludge, with limited accuracy and low payload, less reliability, we would not be having this conversation. but as things stand, it has a high payload, has good CEP, and is reliable. its present in numbers and gives us many options to hit hard targets like hardened AFB etc defended in depth. with waypoint navigation and midcourse changes possible, it is also not easy to intercept by ABM systems.

look you are talking through your hat here. there is no given reason a 1-ton warhead will provoke a retaliation whereas a 500 kg one will not. Nukes are not going to be used just because the prithvi is more effective, thats akin to saying a single Su-30 sortie with 4T of bombs will provoke a nuclear retaliation, say what? if the opponent is stupid enough to launch a strike merely because it sees prithvis coming its way, it will pay the price in terms of a retaliation.

what you dont get is the prithvi with its larger warhead offers more options against more targets. and by virtue of its large inventory and production facilities is more cost effective, at least for the near future.
unless you have exact figures of CEP for the prahar claiming it to be a precision strike weapon (as versus a more effective area weapon, there is a difference) is pointless. long range missiles are not precision strike weapons, unless you put the cost in with expensive terminal guidance. that reduces the flexibility of their employment.

the USP of prithvi, now prahar is they are missiles that can be mass manufactured at reasonable cost and deployed, used in number.

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I thought the ‘why’ was obvious. Prithvi was a missile that was developed and deployed in large part for the nuclear delivery role. That it can also carry conventional warheads is besides the point. You launch the Prithvi, there’s a high chance the enemy will not want to take chances, will assume it carries a nuclear payload and launch a retaliatory nuclear strike.

The risk is less with a smaller missile like Prahaar which has been specificially developed for an ATACMS-style conventional artillery role.

Frankly, as far as a missile artillery role is concerned, Prithvi is a dated missile and is due for replacement.

See, being a large ballistic missile with a 1-ton payload, simply using it has a signifcantly greater chance of provoking a nuclear retailiation, whatever warhead it was armed with.

look you are not making sense because there is no given reason a 1-ton warhead will provoke a retaliation whereas a 500 kg one will not. Nukes are not going to be used just because the prithvi is more effective, thats akin to saying a single Su-30 sortie with 4T of bombs will provoke a nuclear retaliation, say what? if the opponent is stupid enough to launch a strike merely because it sees prithvis coming its way, it will pay the price in terms of a retaliation. prithvis will be used predominantly against a variety of targets eg PAF AFB, PA C3I nodes, including hardened targets for which a variety of warheads have been developed, which are very effective. i can post more details available publicly but its regarded as a work horse missile.

A smaller precision-strike weapon like Prahaar serves better in the artillery role. And with the larger, longer-ranged Shaurya the Prithvi is already redundant anyway.

what you dont get is the prithvi with its larger warhead offers more options against more targets. and by virtue of its large inventory and production facilities is more cost effective, at least for the near future.
unless you have exact figures of CEP for the prahar claiming it to be a precision strike weapon (as versus a more effective area weapon, there is a difference) is pointless. long range missiles are not precision strike weapons, unless you put the cost in with expensive terminal guidance. that reduces the flexibility of their employment.

the USP of prithvi, now prahar is they are missiles that can be mass manufactured at reasonable cost and deployed, used in number.

Frankly, as far as a missile artillery role is concerned, Prithvi is a dated missile and is due for replacement.

See, being a large ballistic missile with a 1-ton payload, simply using it has a signifcantly greater chance of provoking a nuclear retailiation, whatever warhead it was armed with.

A smaller precision-strike weapon like Prahaar serves better in the artillery role. And with the larger, longer-ranged Shaurya the Prithvi is already redundant anyway.

wait & watch buddy……. lets see how long the Prithvi is going to hold on against the much better Prahaar. I feel that Prithvi will be replaced eventually by Prahaar as IAs battle field missile.

ultimately every missile system will get replaced with another one, fail to see your point.
the question is, is there a crying need to replace prithvi today with prahar or build up stocks of both as complementary.

As you said 1ton for high valued target….that can be done by Prahaar with a salvo of 6 missiles totalling 1,200Kg. Or are you skeptical regarding the accuracy of the 6 missile fired to reach the same target?

lol, dont you see the issue right there? whats the point in using six missiles with a greater cost than a single missile which will be less expensive. also, your comparison comparing tonnage is way off, unless more details are revealed on prahars guidance & cep. the indian army may well choose to use its inventory of prithvis and prahars for different taskings and operational purposes.

should there be any surprise to his remark? We have seen the case of IAFs recently inducted radars being claimed as “indigenous”

thats irrelevant. first, sengupta has been wrong time and again, on multiple topics where he has been caught fibbing and second, the entire claiming business was because to keep designations for a single radar class (MPR) simple, the IAF named its inducted israeli radars, the same as an in development system. nothing to add to sengupta’s credibility. before the prahar details came out, he was busy claiming all sorts of stuff about it, making a lot of people realise that he is unreliable when the true details came out.

Prithvi was, is and will be cumbersome battlefield missile when compared with other similar systems. It was the reason why Prahaar was born. The accuracy of Prithvi was improved in the later on variants…

not necessarily. prithvi is “cumbersome” if it is deployed to the operational area, unrefuelled and without fitting out. but the army, af et al have the option to do the fuelling & modifications for use, prior to deployment, which will proceed as is, making it as easy, logistically, the same as prahaar. this is the preferred option to get around the logistics issue.

the prithvi once fuelled, has a life of several years (5+) leaving aside specifics apart before it needs to be refurbished.

the key advantages for prahar is not that it is less cumbersome per se. it is that it more advanced in terms of guidance options, has six to a launcher and requires less basing infrastructure (making it cheaper in the long run).

Simply because ss150 is the only option will not make it less cumbersome or undo the fact.;)

there is not just ss150, theres ss-250 and ss-350 as well, plus dhanush (similar to ss-350). the last is the one with iaf. prithvi remains the workhorse of the indian forces thanks to its high tonnage, relatively low cost, good CEP, effective countermeasures (tailored trajectory with waypoints).

its also present in substantial numbers. overall, its a trusted, reliable missile.

coming to options, there is no dearth of options. the army, af can also take the shourya. the point of prahaar is to create a tactical battlefield missile that can be mass produced in huge numbers, at lower cost. this also feeds into the ABM program as the same infrastructure will be used for AAD.

pardon me, how is the discussion of reliability of a media source insult or slander ? this is very random.
I am quite sure I didn’t indulge in any slander.

Thread cleaned up. No insults or slander here. Thank you.

re: prithvi, just like you can’t replace a tank with APC, you can’t replace a rithvi with prahaar. sometimes a large warhead is needed. ever wondered why air forces haven’t replaced all their 2000 lb bombs with 4 500 lb ones ?
I can’t say more than this, if prithvi is replaced it will be with something with shourya. prahaar does not replace anything, it’s in a new role.

prithvi is going nowhere. with that 1 tonne warhead it would be used to target high value static targets. prahaar is a different category altogether.

wait & watch buddy……. lets see how long the Prithvi is going to hold on against the much better Prahaar. I feel that Prithvi will be replaced eventually by Prahaar as IAs battle field missile.

As you said 1ton for high valued target….that can be done by Prahaar with a salvo of 6 missiles totalling 1,200Kg. Or are you skeptical regarding the accuracy of the 6 missile fired to reach the same target?

What do you mean by “only option”?what “fact” are you talking of?

you can see the same thing in what you posted

Other than the system being a liquid fueled,its still our best choice to take down the enemy targets with a wide variety of targets

As far as I know there was no other battlefield ballistic missile in Indian inventory and a missile with 1ton payload. So Prithvi was the only option to punch the enemy and hence had to live with the cumbersome nature of the units. The fact meaning Prithvi being a liquid feueld missile with its tail of support vehicles which makes it cumbersome.

If there was a solid fuel variant available for the army with lower support vehicles, IA for sure would have preferred it over Prithvi liquid-fuelled.

prithvi is going nowhere. with that 1 tonne warhead it would be used to target high value static targets. prahaar is a different category altogether.

Prithvi was, is and will be cumbersome battlefield missile when compared with other similar systems. It was the reason why Prahaar was born. The accuracy of Prithvi was improved in the later on variants…

It might be relatively cumbersome but that does not take it away from the fact that it has gt an excellent CEP in the order of 4-6 m.

Simply because ss150 is the only option will not make it less cumbersome or undo the fact.;)

What do you mean by “only option”?what “fact” are you talking of?

Today was the launch trial for Prahaar battlefield missile…no news on how it went??

BTW chorgupta as usual confusing Prahaar with LORA /EXTRA/Whatever in his blog and also making false claims(as usual) about prithvi’s CEP…again caught red handed:

should there be any surprise to his remark? We have seen the case of IAFs recently inducted radars being claimed as “indigenous”

In your first comment you mentioned that the accuracy of SS-150 is dismissal and the system is cumbersome and so on.

Prithvi was, is and will be cumbersome battlefield missile when compared with other similar systems. It was the reason why Prahaar was born. The accuracy of Prithvi was improved in the later on variants…

Me being witnessed a trial launch,I assure you that the accuracy of the system has been brought down to 4-6mts.Other than the system being a liquid fueled,its still our best choice to take down the enemy targets with a wide variety of targets.Been using the system fora long time and having tested it multiple times,I will place my bet on using this one. All the inventory of 150`s which are ofcourse a huge number running into a number of hundreds has to be expelled to make room for new inventories.
On the other hand you cant compare a system like prithvi to any other contemporary one. Prithvi lies in an entirely different block. IF accuracy is one factor, then its anti-ABM is another factor.

Simply because ss150 is the only option will not make it less cumbersome or undo the fact.;)
btw, what is chorgupta?

test completed successfully.
http://frontierindia.net/indiandefence/india-tests-prahaar-surface-to-surface-missile/

it’s clear they have used the AAD missile of the ABM system as basis. and the six pack vehicle isn’t ready yet. they have used the same one they used for AAD test.

this is the prahaar
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2tWKb4GlU8M/Tie8R2pS4vI/AAAAAAAAEJE/pRER_dR5WVU/s1600/p-4.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jSiklpMIHbg/Tie8VYUzszI/AAAAAAAAEJM/u-6MiwLSfs0/s1600/p-1.jpg

and this is the AAD from the 2007 missile intercept test.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/AAD_Launch_Crop.jpg/543px-AAD_Launch_Crop.jpg

prahaar launch video here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N1l5DMUjw4

You forgot to highlight the name of the missile and this “DRDO successfully flight tested its latest surface to surface missile Prahaar” in your post…. 😉

Any view of the static missile in the launchpad? It looks like the stablizers are fixed and cannot be folded?

Excellent News! If these are similar to ATACMs then they should be very cost effective. I really hope they are planning to stick a couple of these on some surface ships or even fast attack craft like a slightly bigger version of the L&T interceptors.

Yes great news indeed, in the sense that IA will be able to do away with the cumbersome Prithvi missiles. Prithvi as a battlefield missile had a drawback with its long tail of supports for a missile just 150Km. Else Prithvi is a bit OK for the job.

Prahaar with a single TEL will be able to carry a payload of 1,200Kg (6 missiles) against the 1,000Kg of Prithvi and will do away with all support units associated with the liquid fuel. Lets wait and watch how much the tail have been chopped for the Prahaar battle units.

If I may go further ahead….. when these missiles start arriving, there is a chance that Prithvi already in service might become secondary as any IA commander would like to see his job done with a smaller logistics footprint. So why not put up the already in service Prithvi for sale to other countries once the Prahaar fills up the arsenal?? Any thoughts?

Excellent News! If these are similar to ATACMs then they should be very cost effective. I really hope they are planning to stick a couple of these on some surface ships or even fast attack craft like a slightly bigger version of the L&T interceptors.

test completed successfully.
http://frontierindia.net/indiandefence/india-tests-prahaar-surface-to-surface-missile/

DRDO successfully flight tested its latest surface to surface missile Prahaar at 08.20 A.M on 21st July 2011 from Launch Complex III, off Chandipur Coast, ITR, Balasore, Orissa. The missile with a range of 150 km, comparable to ATACMS Missile of United States of America, fills the vital gap between Multi Barrel Rockets and Medium range Ballistic Missiles. The missile capable of carrying different types of warheads, operates as battle field support system to the Indian Army.
The missile with a length of 7.3 meters and diameter of 420 mm weighing 1280 kgs, and a single stage solid propulsion system goes to a height of 35 kms before reaching the targets of the range of 150 kms in about 250 seconds. The missile equipped with state-of-the-art high accuracy navigation, guidance and electro mechanical actuation systems with latest onboard computer achieved terminal accuracy of less than 10 meters.
The missile with a pay load of 200 kg has a fast reaction time, which is essential for the battle field tactical missile. The missile is launched from a Road Mobile System, which can carry six missiles at a time and can be fired in salvo mode in all directions covering the entire azimuth plane.
The missile system is developed to provide Indian Army a cost effective, quick reaction, all weather, all terrain, high accurate battle field support tactical system. The development of missile is carried out by the DRDO scientists in a short span of less than two years.
The flight path of the Missile was tracked and monitored by the various radar systems and electro optical systems located along the coast of Orissa. An Indian naval ship located near target point in Bay of Bengal witnessed the final event. The missile was developed by the DRDO Scientists with support from Indian Industry and Quality assurance agency MSQAA.
The launch operations were witnessed by Dr. V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to Raksha Mantri and Secretary Defence R & D, Lt Gen Vinod Nayanar, AVSM, Director General of Artillery, IHQ of MoD (Army). The operations were over seen by Avinash Chander, Chief Controller R&D, V.L.N. Rao, Programme Director AD, S.K. Ray, Director RCI, and S.P. Dash, Director ITR.
Defence Minister A.K. Antony congratulated the Scientists of DRDO for the successful maiden launch of the new missile.

it’s clear they have used the AAD missile of the ABM system as basis. and the six pack vehicle isn’t ready yet. they have used the same one they used for AAD test.

this is the prahaar

and this is the AAD from the 2007 missile intercept test.

prahaar launch video here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N1l5DMUjw4

test will happen tomorrow, weather permitting. I think today’s test was called off for poor weather as well, there’s a depression in that region.

Today was the launch trial for Prahaar battlefield missile…no news on how it went??

BTW chorgupta as usual confusing Prahaar with LORA /EXTRA/Whatever in his blog and also making false claims(as usual) about prithvi’s CEP…again caught red handed:

Colonel JitendraVyas said…

Mr Prasun,

In your first comment you mentioned that the accuracy of SS-150 is dismissal and the system is cumbersome and so on.

Me being witnessed a trial launch,I assure you that the accuracy of the system has been brought down to 4-6mts.Other than the system being a liquid fueled,its still our best choice to take down the enemy targets with a wide variety of targets.Been using the system fora long time and having tested it multiple times,I will place my bet on using this one. All the inventory of 150`s which are ofcourse a huge number running into a number of hundreds has to be expelled to make room for new inventories.
On the other hand you cant compare a system like prithvi to any other contemporary one. Prithvi lies in an entirely different block. IF accuracy is one factor, then its anti-ABM is another factor.

Having been sitting on a huge pile of prithvi inventory, every new technology that goes into the next gen long range missiles is being tested on prithvis first.Before the anti-boost phase ABM system was put onto A-III its been tested on Prithvis. Just like all other INS and warhead detonation mechanisms and so on.
We just have to accept that with no prithvi, there is no further development of missile technology in India.

And regarding your unresearched comment of Prahaar,that its an indigenised LORA, you are completely wrong at it again. It is a spin-off AAD.While LORA is a quasi ballistic missile, Prahaar is not.

My sinciere advice is that, next time when you have to post, do research on it.Just dont post whatever pops in your mind”

When will chorgupta stop!!:rolleyes:

Oh well , seems like the test has been postponed for a few days.