Indian Submarine Competition

Originally posted by Austin in Russia’s Modern Conventional & Nuclear Submarine Program

Russia Launches Project 677 submarine

JNI December-2004
By Richard Scott

Russia Launches Project 677 submarine
JNI December-2004
By Richard Scott

The first Project 677 ‘Lada’-class diesel-electric submarine has been formally launched from the Admiralty Shipyard in St Petersburg.

Named Sankt Peterburg in honour of the 300th anniversary of the founding of its namesake city, the submarine was launched into the River Neva on 28 October aboard a floating dock.Following test and acceptance activities , formal commisioning in to the Russian Federation Navy is expected in the second half of 2005 (now its commisioned)

Designed by the Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marien Engineering (CDBME) , the 1,765 tonne submerged displacement Project 677 ,( known as Amur in export derivative ) represent the fourth generation of Russian Conventional submarines. Laid down in december 1997, Sankt Peterburgs completion has been repeatedly delayed by funding shortages and more recently by equipment acceptance issues and revision of certain safety aspects. A second unit , an Amur 1650 export varaint, is awaiting funds for its completion at the Admiralty Shipyard.

Displacing 1,765 tonnes standard and 66.8m in length overall , the Project 677 design is somewhat smaller than the third-generation Project 636 ‘KILO’ -class design. Distinguished by Fin Mounted hydroplanes and cruciform control surfaces aft, it also differs from “Kilo” in its adoption of a single-hull design. Construction is from AB-2 steel ( for a max diving depth of 250 m)

According to data released by Rubin CDBME, Sankt Peterburg has a maximum submerged and surface speeds of 21 Kt and 10 kt respectively. [B]Submerged range at 3 kt will be 650 n miles with a maximum submerged endurance of 10 days.[/B] Cruising range under diesel power ( while snorkelling ) is put at 6000 n miles.

The Rubin CDBME said that refinements in “hullform, vibration supression and acoustic (hull) coating make the Project 677 three times quiter than Project 636″ . It added that much reduced self noise , combined with a new integrated sonar suite , will enable early detection of surface ships and untra-quite submarines at long ranges”.

Developed by Morphyspribor , the integrated sonar suite combines bow-mounted and towed arrays, plus separate intercept and mine avoidance arrays, under water telephones, noise-monitoring sensors and velocity and range measurement systems.

The Avrora Science and Production corporation has led the development of the Project 677 combat control system. The main control room accommodates all combat management and platform control functions, which interface with the common data transfer system. The Dual Workstation combat information control system and interfaces to weapon and countermeasures discharge management units on a seperate weapon control bus.

Another first for the Project 677 is the incorporation of a non-hull-penetrating optronic search mast , supplied by Elektropribor , in place of conventional search periscope. A conventional attack periscope is retained.

The submerged endurance mentioned there is w/o the AIP, which means that the battery power (and lower tonnage) have increased considerably which makes the sub to be submerged for a contineous for 10 days.

I want to know whats the submerged endurance for U-212/214 & Scorpene

k let me put in here this one….. abt the Russian AIP.

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This one is probably a bit more detailed article on the Russian AIP (history not much included), bascically concentrating on the AIP that was developed and thats to be commercialised, with the only problem in sight being the finance.

Russian experience in the development of AIP power plants for Submarines

When ordered by a domestic or foreign customer, the corporation of enterprises headed by the SKBK JSC can design, manufacture and supply a high-performance electrochemical power plant (Fig. 4), boasting power ranging from 100 to 3,000 – 4,000 kW and provided with all the infrastructure required for operation, within 3 to 5 years (depending on the power and energy capacity).

The quote above, is from the article which dates to 1997, which also puts in the bitter fact that, India have indeed wasted considerable time due to the unwanted creeping in or dragging in of the mentality that only west has got an AIP and more so an EG. This all happed with our ‘diversification’ for none other than the sake of ‘diversification’. And i know, there still be many to argue that its not proven etc etc.

As for my plan, I’d say there is no need to waste more time on pursuing an idiotic notion but rather move ahead with the Russian AIP and make the Kristall-27E and later-on (3rd Gen) versions a reality. But for now, the Kristall-27E or its variant so that it becomes the standard plug-in module for not only Aumr-1650, Amur-950 & Scorpene, but also for the 4 x T-209 subs that we operate. One thing that we need to underline in bold is that, NO more wasting of time pursuing an idiotic notion.

But still , its really unfortunate that most Indians fail to understand some basics.

For easy viewing & reading, i’ve combined the text and figure of the AIP and attached below.

k am putting the new baby over here…..

Amur-950 V2 (Version-2)

larger Image

Amur-950 V2 was actually displayed in DefExpo’04’, which unfortunately did not get much attention or coverage … as u guys saw earlier in the thread, which i mistook to be a modified Amur-1650. 😮

Amur-950 V2 spec

Number of torpedo tubes, —— 4 pc
Missile, torpedo and amine ammunition, —— 14 pc (calibre -533 mm)
Normal displacement, —— 1060 m3
Principal dimensions,
– length —— 60,3 m
– breadth —— 5,6 m
Full submerged speed, —— 20 kts
Submerged range at economic speed, —— 350 miles
Cruising range with overload fuel capacity while snorkelling at economic speed of 7 knots, —— 3000 miles
Maximum diving depth, —— 300 m
Endurance, —— 30 days
Crew, —— 18 persons

you want to put 10 extra weapons in it? Then the thing ‘ll get much bigger. And of course that speed doesn’t really matter, since when you are going at 30kts to your target, they’ll hear you quite well. Normally the supersilent speed of a SSN is 3-5kts, then there is a rather silent mode, for LA class up to 15kts,I think for SeaWolf that’s 20kts, but all that’s faster than these will make the sub very noisy. If your opponent has an SSN around, your AAW ships won’t be able to do much about that… And the SSN will definitely hear you when you try to run away.
I don’t think that’s Amur’s role anyway, you are giving Amur the Oscar SSGN role in your proposal. It’s not meant to do that, better to send some Su-30MKIs with Brahmos in there, that’s much more flexible and you can give them a better cover with additional AAW planes.
(sorry, NR-1 is the smallest nuclear sub, albeit a research sub)

yes, thats correct, i was considering thet N-propulsion as an option as putting on Brahmos VL and AIP module wont be a good idea, so Y not a Brahmos VL and a N-section. This wud also give it a pretty decently high (30+Knots) hunter ability for that fast SSN and surface ships that may want to show-off in our area but also to run like hell to get under the cover of surface ships after firing ….

say… the opponent is 500 Km away and the missile has a very max range of 300 Km , so sneak in 200 km in and fire it , so that after that the surface ships with Good AD cover can ‘run-in’ to protect and the sub after firing can ‘run-out’ under the blanket of the AD ships, so as not to get the fire from the opponents flying ASW assets.

In this case that long-range ‘stores’ wud not be necessary, coz u are playing in the home turf…. and a decent aoofensive weapons of 18 Torp or 18 Klub family Sub-sea weaopon and another 10 anti-ship or land-attack VL weapons.

It is possible, look at the Rubis SSN, it’s the smallest around. Yet the big question is: How effective would this be? A Nuclear submarine needs to have some endurance, stores etc. for several months. Rubis has a very light weaponload, smaller than some SSKs. So, if it would be doing a merchant hunting campaign it would need to go back several times for reloading. For food etc. it’s probably the same. By limiting its size, you reduce the endurance of a sub and what’s the advantage of a small nuclear sub with limited endurance compared to a cheaper SSK? Indeed, Nothing… (except that it can stay submerged for a longer time, but that’s quite a minimal advantage compared to its much higher price.)

I was thinking abt placing a N-reactor in the Amur …..is it not possible??…..considering that Russians had tested a system before and another fact that Scorpene is none other than the French SSN with conventional propulsion??

Well then obviously something else is going on, since no 50 MW reactor is going to propel any decent SSN or wannabe SSBN and as severodvinsk said liquid metal reactors are a pain in the ar$e.

I really don’t think you want to go that way… Liquid metal reactors are a pain in the ass, go ask that to the Russians. They had it in the Alpha class too, yet afterwards they changed that for a “conventional” pressurised Water Reactor.
I suppose he’s not talking about a PWR Francis, since it uses liquified metal according to him.

If you are talking about the 30/50 MW odd PWR that had been tested. Do tell me what sort of power it is going to provide esp if the ATV is going to be an SSBN ??
The Akula SSN has a 190 MW reactor and the Akula SSBN/Typhoon has 2 of them 190 reactors ?? Considering that then into what sort of category does the 50 MW reactor fit in ??

I think the work on ATV is going on fine, but may be a bit slow, The design of Reactor is similar to Russian and does not use the Heavy W@ter (D2o) but uses some metal in molten state… I guess its sodium (not sure), and one such reactor is already been made and used for research purpose.

India Still to Decide on French Subs: Defense Minister
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, NEW DELHI

India has not decided whether to buy six Scorpene submarines from France, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said Oct. 29 after the naval chief suggested the deal would be sealed soon.

“We are considering the proposal. But no final decision has been taken,” he told the Press Trust of India in Calcutta after meeting French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier on Oct. 27.

As Barnier flew out Oct. 27, India’s navy chief of staff, Admiral Arun Prakash, said the two-billion euro ($2.5 billion) deal was “under very close examination at the highest level of government.”

“We have received assurance that the deal will see the light of day soon,” he said.

Barnier had pushed the sale, accompanied by 36 SM-39 missiles, in New Delhi talks this week.

Now a reason for the delay in the building of Amurs can also be attributed to this development (or speculation , as u can say) as PJ-10 was intended as a weapon platform for tri-services which included its launch platform from Sea, Air and land, but a point which was not noted was the sub-surface launch of the same. And the platform which could host India’s first sub-sea launched Brahmos PJ-10 could be ….. this Amur (?), which still is in its development stage.

This will quickly fill in a void with its firepower before the ATV come in – but Bars will be entering earlier than Amur, if its on its way – Russia had earlier too made very customised and even a fully new platform (An-32) for Indian Defence services, so this won’t be a surprise on that front. But surely could be one, if the displayed one is actually the one intended, as that seldom got any real attention.

This could also mean a sub-sea launch of the PJ-10 would be there before Bars set sail from the top of the world and Amur before it get into service.

here are some more pic, a close up of the above and the silo hatches of the Akulas in the opened position. The second one will give u a good measure of its size.

Now let me also get this one over here which I think, I had missed on earlier occations. So though y not post it here now again my renewed intrest for the Brahmos Amur Complex has given me this , and Victor, do u got any other pic of that model?

But if I’m not wrong, I think what i found out was that, during DefExpo’04 Rubin did display their new Amur or say the Brahmos Amur Complex! …… and that largely went unnoticed???

below are some pictures – two from Harry’s collection and the other one that of Rupak’s (if I am not wrong) collection when he put up his collection on some temp site during the days when DefExpo’04’ was going on.

the first thing that I always had circling my mind has been the incompatiblity of that Amur 950 and Amur 1650 to what I had in my mind to the size and shape of the two members of the Amur family. But it had to make a force landing as Harry reported it as Amur 950 and Amur 1650 which I guess was in tune with what was displayed over there. And I guess Harry, I had asked u if u had any better close-up pictures of that Amur model (and Gorshkov), earlier too. But plzzz this time check again if u got any other pictures of the Amur model —- though a preferrable one would have been be a bit more topper view.

If u guys check out the models namey the displayed 950 and 1650, then it (atleast for me) don’t match up to whatever figures I’ve got for these two. With the one mentioned as 950 not even close to the 950 (from my POV). Also from the two pictures, the one that Rupak (?) took did not have the placard ‘Amur 950’ placed in front of it, which I think is a modified Amur 1650. Where as the later-on (?) pictures of that model show that Placard, naturally binding that model firmly as Amur 950 in which, we as of now did had no great intrest. Now was that intended for misleading or say to make it stay from pyring eyes w/o actually putting cover??? ……. was it a managed affair or someone misplaced it ??? ….. well I don’t know, Hope Harry and others would be able to throw some light over his (if any) discussion with the guys at the Rubin’s Stall. Now was there a reason for Rubin to display the Amur950 when the Indian Navy’s clear definition for sea-denial meant a real capable SSK??? ….. well i guess not, untill and unless Indian Navy had any immediate needs for smaller subs meant for the role thats intended for Amur 950.

In the said Amur 950, which I think is a modified Amur 1650 ….
– u can see some ‘hump’ which has been given a good smoothing finish for keeping the hydrodynamics to the best.
– u can also see somewhat top-to-bottom cylindrically shaped ‘vaccum’ , 5 of them, in-line.
– u can also see a hatch opened right on top of one of that silo or Silo number 4 as I’ve designated it for ease.

Now my speculation of that model being a modified Amur 1650 is also based on these things, coz the cylindrically shaped top-to-bottom affair has not been seen on any earlier figures, but don’t know if 950 is said to have any such thing. The hump on its back if considered to be a meter high would make the PJ-10 with its 9m length fit in very well considering that the height of the Hull is 8.2 meters for Amur1650. But if this actually is a modified Amur1650, then it could well be having 10 Silos in 2 rows with a meter and more (?) to spare between these rows for passage. Also the hatch that can be seen opened directly above and in line with one of the speculated silo does not seem like a regular rescue one. But it looks more like the missile silo hatch with a rectangular outside and a circular shell attached from the bottom …….

now thats what I felt like from my observations and is bound to be terribly wrong, if someone can throw more light on what I feel is a modified Amur 1650. Or it could also be truly the Amur-950 with 5 VL silo, but then with a hull height of 6.4m , accomodating PJ-10 class or the Klub-class would need nearly 3 m hump on its back, which is not the case here.

So I’d like to take my view of it being actually a modified Amur1650 with VL silos, which intentionally slipped-off the media during the expo, untill somone put more info on that model and put to rest what I believe as to what it is.

Nitin,

also do not forget to mention as to the forced scaling back off the experience that IN gained during the Charlie lease, and it was the backboneless Indian Gov and another Baffoon that ruled Russia that made sure that IN could not have it any longer

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k guys, now the kind of hump back that I see in the amur is like the Severodvinsk Class (and as such, I believ ATV or an ‘MKI’ for Indian Navy) . In the pictures below u can see the 12 VLS or 12 Silos thats shown in the it. The pic shows the 4 silos and it has to be in a 3 row config with 4 each as the Severodvinsk class is reported to have 12 silos for launching missiles vertically. From the side profile a small hump can also be made out, but not anywhere near to what a Delta class have. Now thats how i hope the Brahmos Amur complex will look like on the Amur with a VL capablity. Also i dont think a config like what the naval forces described or visualised is gonna get in, as that simply is not the way and hopefully they represented it in the wrong way.

here are some pictures of the Severodvinsk class with the first one an older one and the other a newer graphical representation of the sub though i guess its not official (?). To put a bit more on the S’insk class the two representation has huge difference the way things have changed and things are a bit more clearer in the newer and coz of that angled profile of second picture.

firstly I’d like to say that it seems like its made up of 11 sections or module (as can be made out from the newer second picture, though I may be wrong) so taking that same one to the older picture , u guys can see –

In the first one the subs main propulsion unit is placed in the second last section and the reactor module after the Silo section .Where as, in the newer one u will get to see the propulsion section being pushed forward and the reactor section/module being next to the Silo section. I think this has been done considering the c.g of the sub and for obvious better handling. Seems like it has been done to concentrate all the mass and heavy units towards a central sectional length, freeing the ends for crew accomodation or shifting them from the earlier position to the second last section. Maybe this change over makes the sub to dive and surface faster as the ballast tanks pumping in & out will be more effective with reduced work for that ‘imbalance’ needed to get the subs nose point upward or downward and so does the duty of the sails, though I cud be wrong.

Its also noticable that the torpedo room seems like have been shifted to the upper deck from the middle section in the newer picture.

Oh k comng back to the Amur, unlike the Severodvinsk class it has the option of either a damn unmatched firepower for an SSK with a ‘regular’ submerged endurance or with the ‘standard’ arsenal with a longer submerged endurance. And thats from what Indian Navy – when going-in for the Amur – will have to choose from. And I am pretty sure if that happens, it would be a mix of these two ….. as u can see from pictures down below, the AIP integrated Amurs (blanked out section) module will have to be replaced and a section comparable to that would be inserted – after the conning tower – where the Silos would be based, as speculated earlier 8 silos would be integrated in that section.

But I’d have loved to see these both happening , which seems unlikely as that would only increase the length and displacement and hence also decrease the snorkelling and submerged speed. But then, don’t u guys think it would indeed be good even though at the cost a some 2-3 knots? …coz that gives u a submerged endurance of nearly 50 days with 8 (speculated earlier) land attack or anti-ship arsenal w/o giving any hint of u laying dormant for the right time to ambush.

now if that becomes a reality then the above mentioned one of a two-config Amur – a pure AIP equipped SSK (with a min 4 missiles fired through TT) for that extended period of duty; another one having a bit more heavier disp with 8 Silos loaded with Land-attack or Anti-ship missiles for that added firepower and then finally another one having 2 modules added to the basic Amur-1650 with one for AIP and the other one for Silos ….. and this will possiblity take the number of members of the Amur family to 7 or 8. Which will make the Amur1650/1850 designation for the last two member invalid coz of its increased displacement and firepower for the first and an increased disp, length and of course, increased firepower for the second.

To confirm this deal would be well nigh impossible for the GOI and the Russians…but then again India had no problems declaring that it had leased a Charlie long back, but then again we werent a nuke capable state (openly declared) either back then.

It is Flip-Flop as usual as with everything else concerned with Russia.

http://www.mosnews.com/money/2004/10/22/submarine.shtml

Russian Defense Minister Refutes Reports on Lending of Submarine to India
Created: 22.10.2004 17:25 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 17:25 MSK, 4 hours 10 minutes ago

MosNews

Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov refuted information that Russia intended to lend a nuclear-powered submarine to India.

Speaking to journalists during his visit to India at the beginning of the year the minister said “submarine leasing was out of the question”, Interfax news agency reported.

He added that Russia and India had discussed “very serious contracts in relation to military-technical cooperation. In particular, an important contract was singed on the supply of aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Gorshkov.”

On Thursday, the agency reported that the Indian navy was set to lease a nuclear-powered submarine from Russia. A high-ranking official from the Russian military-industrial complex quoted by the agency said “Moscow and New Delhi have signed a contract according to which India’s navy will lease a Project 971 nuclear-powered submarine for 10 years.”

The official said that the contract was signed at the beginning of 2004. The submarine to be leased is a Project 971 Nerpa nuclear submarine which is being constructed at the Amur shipbuilding facility, in the Far East city of Komsomolsk-on-Amur. “It is 85-percent ready right now,” the source said.

The submarine should be finished by 2007. An Indian crew was reportedly then to arrive in Russia to train on the submarine. According to independent experts, profits from the use of the submarine could run into tens of millions of dollars a year. This submarine belongs to Russia’s most advanced Akula-II class and is comparable to the U.S. Sea Wolf and modernised Los Angeles-class submarines. It costs $1.7 billion.

In 1988 Russia leased to India a nuclear submarine less sophisticated than Akula-II.

I won’t nodd then as you asked. Here, some more for you to think about:

From Scotsman.com

India to lease Russian nuclear submarine

PTI[ THURSDAY, OCTOBER 21, 2004 12:53:17 PM ]

MOSCOW: The Indian Navy will lease a Russian Akula-class nuclear submarine for 10 years, the Interfax-Military News Agency reported Thursday, citing a highly-placed Russian defense industry official.

The Nerpa (Ringed Seal) submarine (Nerpa is the procuction center, isn’t it? ) is being constructed at the Amur shipyards and should be ready by 2007, the report said.

The press service of the Russian state-controlled weapons export company, Rosoboronexport, said it had no information on a deal.

The unnamed official said that Russia and India had agreed on the leasing deal at the beginning of the year, Interfax reported. It cited independent experts’ estimates that the deal could be worth tens of millions of dollars a year.

Or not?

Itar tass:

Moscow: Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov today (Oct 22, 2004) termed as “untrue” reports that India would lease for 10 years a nuclear submarine from Russia.

“I can assure you that the information about the submarine is not true,” Ivanov was quoted as saying by the ITAR-TASS news agency which yesterday reported about the deal.

Ivanov, who has been appointed new co-chairman of the Indo-Russian Intergovernmental Commission on Military-Technical Co-operation, said that during his New Delhi visit in January, no negotiations were held on submarines.

“We really had discussed very serious contracts in military-technical co-operation; in particular, a major contract for the supply of ‘Admiral Gorshkov’ aircraft carrier was signed. But there were no talks about submarines or their leasing,” he said.

ITAR-TASS and private Interfax news agencies, quoting ‘Defence industry sources’, yesterday reported about signing of the submarine deal earlier this year with India under which Russia was to lease Akula-II class multi-role nuclear submarine ‘Nerpa’, currently under construction at a shipyard in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in the Far East.

From BBC

Indian navy denies submarine deal

The Indian navy has denied reports that a deal has been finalised with Russia for the lease of an Akula-class nuclear-powered submarine.
Navy spokesman, Commander Vinay Garg, told the BBC talks were continuing between the two countries but no agreement was completed.

I hope you see the point by my little example of “stating this, stating that”. I think the Russians and Indians have in fact done it before me…
I admit there might be something going on, very obviously in fact. Yet on what and how, we (YES, INCLUDING YOU and ME) will have to wait for the deal to get finalised, officially announced and of course effectuated.

East Asian Coverage; suspected South Asian Akula:

😮

No arguments… Cool and deadly-looking boat for sure …
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2004-10/21/content_2121169.htm
What would be the operational & maintainance cost I wonder???

😮

I’m not at all knowing “better”, but I’m on the net for some time and I can tell you some very obvious streamings running around.
Bellona is a very independant “Greenpeace” kind of organisation, yet their subject handles a bit more secret things and hence it is much easier for them than for Greenpeace to make mistakes. I’m not saying I don’t make mistakes. But my stating this, stating that are as valuable as your reports, since they are also picked from the net. So, there is no way mine is better, I’m just saying you should be aware of this kind of things. Some of these “streams” I meant was this. When I entered the internet age and the internet community, I were about the only one really defending the Soviet/Russian stuff. Together with some very interested anthousiasts, like Jonesy, I learned lots of things about this equipment. But, I also learned lots of things about their use and certainly about the Soviet/Russian mentality towards these things.
Now, of course I wanted to defend Russia and certain people (Indian people that is) were interested in what I knew, since India was indeed receiving lots of Russian equipment. I was of course very eager to share my knowledge and started making some “promotion” for the gear. I had lots of opponents on this, they never wanted to believe me, saying the Russian things were crap etc etc. Now all of sudden, also partially by some other defenders of Russian gear, that seems to have turned, most Indians now seem to think Russian stuff is holy, partially I think, note me if I’m wrong, because India is receiving so much of it and doesn’t have too much alternatives concidering cost. Of course the guys that asked me are among them, since I-deliberately-left out some bad things about this stuff (weight, size, bad components etc.). Now they all seem to think it’s holy and unbeatable. I of course used to believe that too, and as much as I like the Russian Navy and equipment, even I have to admit now there are flaws in it, and sometimes quite large ones. But I won’t lie because of anything like this. All I have now thrown against your arguments in my last post, was/is supported and based on reports too.

You should also be aware of calling me a liar, dreamer or just saying I can’t know anything about that. Because later, you start doing the same and don’t accept me notifying that.