Indonesia Buys 6 Russian Subs, Including Launch Order for 2 Amur 950s

No, but you jumped to conclusions, which is ALWAYS a bad mistake on these forums.

People from all over the world and from all walks of life post here, so accusing someone you don’t know of being anti-something without any real proof to back it up simply makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder.

Unicorn

OK then, fair enough….

Indonesia could be a great country, it is a wonderful country in most respects with a warm hearted and kind people and access to some good natural resources. However government corruption, an ineffective central authority and problems with ethnic/regional conflict in parts of the archipelago will prevent Indonesia’s development to join the other high growth Asian economies until these problems are sorted out. That’s not being anti-Indonesian or xenophobic, it’s just a fact. I worked for a company that ended up transferring all project management for a few remaining projects in Indonesia to Singapore and decided it wasn’t worth the hassle of bidding for more contracts there when there was lower risk projects elsewhere without all the complications of graft, paying off local officials, dealing with the TNI and the risks of piracy etc. Again that may be sad but it’s also true.

No, but you jumped to conclusions, which is ALWAYS a bad mistake on these forums.

People from all over the world and from all walks of life post here, so accusing someone you don’t know of being anti-something without any real proof to back it up simply makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder.

Unicorn

And before you make a dumbass accusation that I’m racist you should STFU and remember you know nothing about my personal circumstances and links to that potentially great country 😡

Sorry then, of course I dont know you if you dont say it first :diablo:
And that “potentially great country” is my country….

Definitively the best deal around for a small coastal navy like indons.
Anything else will be rotten metal in 2 years after commisionning.

It is not a big secret that some(not all) of our arm forces supports act of piracy. I believe Unicorn description of our two submarines performance is true. Personally it is quite a mystery that our military staff decided to buy subs instead of surface ships. Of course the subs are nice but the surface ships like frigates or corvettes are in more urgent need.

Arvin

I think you guys got a wrong idea from the SIGMA corvettes.

-The development costs of the new design series was paid by the Dutch Naval Industry. The Dutch government provided the loan for the 4(!!) ships with exceptionally low interest. So basically you got a state-of-the-art ship-class for the price of an inferior ship-class.

-SIGMA is an advanced design concept compared to MEKO. MEKO is a design concept with uses modularisation of mainly weapon, sensor and propulsion systems. SIGMA is a design serie where all possible variants are build up from modules of 7.2m x 2 m which gives maximum flexibility. Currently this design serie is limited to the Patrol Serie, but soon a Frigate serie will follow.

-The number 3 and 4 were supposed to build in Indonesia, but there were some build quality problems AFAIK.

– IMO the corvettes are more effective than the old steam propelled Ahmad Yani’s. Certainly when you take the newer sensors into account. Also the number of days at sea will be higher than the old MLM-frigates. It is claimed that currently the Fatahillah-class corvettes are “the most effective Indonesian major surface combatants” (Combat Fleets 2002-2003) and I think these new corvettes will perform likewise or even better.

regards,

2ring

What a baseless claim…..
proof :confused: you just have anti Indonesian sentiment…. 😡

Apart from various IMO documents on security I got whilst managing offshore drilling rigs off Indonesia and various UK government advice on piracy in the area, combined with hard evidence over many years you mean? And before you make a dumbass accusation that I’m racist you should STFU and remember you know nothing about my personal circumstances and links to that potentially great country 😡

I am sorry guys, but I have witnessed the Indonesian military, in particular the Navy, at close hand for almost 14 years, ending in 2003.

During that time (which included the Interfet mission to Timor Leste) I witnessed numerous cases which indicated the poor maintainence capabilities in the TNI, fairly basic surface ships rusting to pieces, fairly basic electronics such as navigation radars which were inoperative and so forth.

I frankly find it impossible to believe that the TNI was able to maintain their two aging submarines in combat readiness, in fact until they were refitted by the manufacturers they had basically lost their “safe to dive” certification.

As for aspects of piracy and other illegal activity, one of my classmates, driving a Fremantle class patrol boat, pursued an indonesian fishing boat that had been illegally fishing in Australian waters towards Indonesian territorial waters. An Indonesian Navy patrol boat appeared and manouvered to block the Wollongong from pursuing the fleeing boat, despite the international convention of hot pursuit.

When the matter was raised by the Australian Naval Attache and Ambassador in Jakarta the matter went nowhere, no one knew nothing, despite video evidence presented by the RAN of the Wollongong being blocked.

Thats the reality of TNI operations in support of illegal activity.

Unicorn

Better weapons, better ships. They don’t need to stuff it like IN.

Too big, not reliable. Not sure for the price though.

The MEKO deal was basically for kickbacks. Indon would be better off with something like talwar class. Cheaper, better more rugged.

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1961200,00.html

Meko is THE solution.
No subs needed there.
The only need for subs would be in a conflict against China, but here, I don’t see what three subs will do…
The Meko design is good, fast, well armed, very reliable, cheap enough and they can do ranges of missions your old frigates can’t (see South Afrika!).
Indons don’t have money, so no need for big ships.

BUT what happened is a pair of overexpensive corvette (that cost the same with 3 Talwar frigates) replacing 6 ex Van-Speijk 😮 😡 :rolleyes:

that’s politics, my friend.. broker play their role…. 😀
even SIX SIGMA class will never replace 6 ex van speijk class… corvette isn’t frigate.. but, these van speijk now decommissioned, now we have to rely on these TWO SIGMA ships … 🙁
what i hate about is that netherland decline our proposal to build last two SIGMA (3 and 4) ships at PAL indonesia!

We already keeps our old 209 at war condition for a decade….
Im more concern about wasting money on everexpensive Sigma then thse subs… a pair of corvette wont replace the decommisioned ahmad yani frigates

Unfortunately that’s a bit hard to believe with an Indonesian admiral claiming atrocious serviceability rates for Indonesia’s vessels just a few years back. (I cannot remember the numbers, but it was horrible enough to leave an impression in me) The problem is that subs are high maintenance items – they need care to maintain their acoustic stealth. If even the surface fleet was in that bad a condition, I don’t think the subs would have been any better at all.

BUT what happened is a pair of overexpensive corvette (that cost the same with 3 Talwar frigates) replacing 6 ex Van-Speijk

This is a problem in requirements specification and project management – it does not negate the requirement to patrol its waters. As I recall, both Indonesia and Malaysia were the most vocal in their opposition to USN patroling of the straits. IMO, that’s natural when one talks of sovereignty issues, but that means having to pull its weight in policing the straits and suppressing the piracy problem. Indonesia’s purchase of subs does not inspire confidence that it is placing much priority to the piracy problem.

Frankly, if not for that ‘incident’ btw Malaysia and Indonesia I think that getting those Malaysian manufactured Mekos might have been a good idea.

with same amount of SSM and SAM?
better have two rather one of those ex van speijk class…. will cover much larger areas.. at least, these so expensive ships are new built… 😀

BUT what happened is a pair of overexpensive corvette (that cost the same with 3 Talwar frigates) replacing 6 ex Van-Speijk 😮 😡 :rolleyes:

what are you saying?

you mean that indonesia more need patrol boat like SIGMAs or Lurssen rather than subs?

what are you saying?

Why? So that instead of russia the money would go to to europeans?? Meko-200 is certainly not required for indonesia. They would be better of buying more patrol ships to counter pirates. Russia can easily provide them with the same. Indon surface fleet is in no condition to fight anyone on the sea, subs give them the only viable deterrent option.

like SIGMAs? or locally built Lurssen?

Why? So that instead of russia the money would go to to europeans?? Meko-200 is certainly not required for indonesia. They would be better of buying more patrol ships to counter pirates. Russia can easily provide them with the same. Indon surface fleet is in no condition to fight anyone on the sea, subs give them the only viable deterrent option.