Info on Lieut K Kirkaldy RFC

The last little snippet I found about KSK a few weeks ago from the Trove archive in Australia (newspaper extract)

Kirkaldy Kenneth Stewart,late of St Kilda Road,Melbourne,Company Secretary – died 24th Dec 1947

I know that he worked for Lucas Pty so perhaps the old Rascal had finally found himself in a good responsible job ??

rgds baz

Thank you very much for taking the time to ask at the BW museum MM,that was very kind of you and much appreciated !
Would have been nice to find out some details of his Black Watch service but not to be !

A visit to the delightful Black Watch Museum in Perth unfortunately did not find any personal record of Lt Kirkaldy’s army service. The museum does not hold Personnel Records except a few they have had donated.

With regards to the Service No. supplied by Kev35, it seems there are standard numbers and ‘S’ numbers! So the number (S) 3834 in the records belongs to a Thomas Dickson which would mean that Lt. Kirkaldy must have been plain 3834 – the difference is that the ‘S’ numbers had signed up “for the duration” of the war while the non-S had signed up for a fixed term of either 3,5 or 7 years. Seems this was pretty unusual in wartime though not unheard of.

Most men from Dundee/Broughty Ferry signed up in the Kirkcaldy Depot or in Perth.

I wasn’t able to get any information for the time of Lt. Kirkaldy’s Territorial service as most of what was available relates to the 1st Battalion which was the official battalion stationed in India – the others were rotated in and out. Climate/humidity and lack of paper meant records haven’t survived so all I could get was that K.S.K would certainly have signed up in this country for his Territorial Service and the 4/5th was an amalgamated battalion from Dundee and Angus because of the number of men killed at the battle of Loos in 1915.

There was no mention in his file about when he was awarded his ‘Wings’,but I eventually arrived at a probable conclusion…

This excerpt might partly answer my question about the awarding of (or permission to wear) ‘Wings’ but this applies to after the ‘Gosport System’ of training was introduced – Earlier in the war things were much more casual !and depended on individual circumstances and of course casualty rates !
From an article by Michael Skeet 1998 and from ‘The Aerodrome’ forum

A. To graduate a pilot must have:

1. Undergone instruction at a School of Military Aeronautics.

2. Had 20 hours solo in the air. [Handwritten amendment reads: “25 hours solo + dual combined”]

3. Flown a service aeroplane satisfactorily.

4. Carried out a cross-country flight of at least 60 miles successfully–during which he must have landed at two outside landing places under supervision of a R.F.C. officer.

5. Climbed to 8,000 ft. and remained there for at least 15 mins., after which he will land with his engine stopped, the aeroplane first touching the ground within a circular mark of 50 ft. in diam.

6. Made two landings in the dark, assisted by flares (only applicable to B.E. and F.E. 2 pilots; pilots of other machines may do this at discretion of Wing Commanders and Commandant C.F.S.).*

[A hand-written note adds: 7. Passed Gas Course]

B. Pilots will not wear wings until they are qualified for service overseas as under:–

1. Passed tests applicable on p. 6–7. [These are the tests in “A” above.]

2. Have had air experience 30 hours solo, of which not less than five hours must be done on a service type. [Handwritten amendment reads: “Have had dual control instruction + solo air experience amounting in all to 35 hours: of which no less than 5 hrs must be made upon a service type.”]

3. Carried out 15 ‘tail down’ landings on service type. He will then be known as a service pilot and will wear wings.

So looking through KSK’s file – I would hazard a guess that he was officially classified as a ‘Service Pilot’ – circa 30/7/17 when he was confirmed in rank and became a 2nd Lt Flying Officer.Which is why I wondered if he had become an instructor for a while,there is something written in one of the columns which might be ‘instr’ !

I could not work out the ‘MFSH’ but MickDavis on greatwarforum supplied the obvious answer : )

I also had not been able to decipher the shorthand for ‘Scout’

Course at School of Special Flying Gosport; Sept 1917.
Flown MFSH (Maurice Farman Se.11 ‘Shorthorn’), All BEs (BE2c, BE2d, BE2e), Martynside Scout (Martinsyde G.100/102 ‘Elephant’), Avros, Sopwith Scouts (Pup & Camel)

From FDCA

Registration number TS4823
Kenneth Stewart Kirkaldy
4 Foster Road,
Kingsway.
Morris Oxford Coupe
21 Jan 1925

Thanks v much MM…have sent PM !

Not yesterday then 🙂 It has changed a wee bit since then. I’m not very far from Perth myself if it’s difficult for you to get to. I’d be more than happy to help though it would probably be a few weeks before I’d be able to.

Only 17 miles from the home of Famous Grouse 🙂

Might do Edradour/Blair Atholl,I have done quite a few of the west coast distilleries but not many mainland ones…

cheers baz

Funnily enough – the last time I was in Perth was in Cessna 150 G-ATNL doing my PPL test with Capt Lockhart of AST (June 1972)… I hour of terror followed by ten mins solo to get me to the magical figure of 35 hours TT for the licence LOL !

rgds baz

Only 17 miles from the home of Famous Grouse 🙂

Just a side note re. Loch Doon mentioned above. According to an old Scotland Scanned it hosted the Seaplane training Squadron circa 1916 – 17 but this was closed due to an unacceptable accident rate. The School of Aerial Gunnery
was shelved owing to “awful conditions”.

Turnberry better as a golf course maybe ; )

Thanks MM
Yes we are very pleased with the RFC/RAF stuff but have drawn a virtual blank with the Black Watch side of the story,we will definitely have to make a wee visit to Perrrth and the delightful looking BW museum.With maybe a wee side trip to a distillery !

rgds baz

Well done bazv – your friend must surely be impressed with the amount of info you have managed to gather together on Lt Kirkaldy. He had quite a life, didn’t he? Would be worthy of a movie or tv drama at least!

Just a side note re. Loch Doon mentioned above. According to an old Scotland Scanned it hosted the Seaplane training Squadron circa 1916 – 17 but this was closed due to an unacceptable accident rate. The School of Aerial Gunnery
was shelved owing to “awful conditions”.

Sorry I had meant to post this other page from KSK’s file
The details gleaned from it and the other page on post 24 and the previous post…

Many thanks to MickDavis of the great war forum – he supplied a detailed potted history of the career of the ‘Black Sheep of the Black Watch’ whilst in the RFC/RAF !

Oxford 2.3.1917
2 SCHOOL OF MILITARY AERONAUTICS RFC/RAF
Base
Formed at Christchurch College, Oxford 27.10.1916 by re-designating 1 School of Instruction. Word ‘Military’ dropped from title 1.4.1918. Disbanded 24.1.1919.

Instructional Airframes
AMC DH2 7924.
Bristol Scout D 5585.
Vickers FB5 1636.

SAG Turnberry 4.4.1917
2 (AUXILIARY) SCHOOL OF AERIAL GUNNERY RFC Base Formed at Turnberry 1.1917, pending the anticipated completion of Loch Doon. Disbanded into 1 SAF&G at Turnberry 10.5.1918.

Representative Aeroplanes
AMC DH9 5938.
AW FK3
Bristol F2B C4841.
MF Se.11 A2478.
RAF BE2c 2720, 2766, 5416, B4020.
RAF BE2e A8712, B708, B3695, B4500, B4495, B4496, B4497, B4499, B4500, B4562, B4564, B8845.
RAF FE2b 4926, 4955, 4966, 6975, A788, A817, A824, A830, A836, A5504.
RAF RE7 2435.
RAF SE5a C1762.
Sopwith F1 Camel B9204, B9210, B9222.
Vickers FB9 A8620.

AB Office 18.5.1917
Presume Air Board Office.

39 RS 14.5.1917 (became 39 TS 31.5.1917)
39 RESERVE/TRAINING SQUADRON RFC/RAF
Bases
Formed in 19th Wing at Montrose 26.8.1916. Designated as an Elementary Reserve Squadron and establishment at 23.12.1916 set at 18 MF. To 30th Wing 1.6.1916. To South Carlton 3.9.1917 and became a scout training unit and disbanded into 46 TDS at that station 27.7.1918.

Representative Aeroplanes
Avro 504A 7952, 7956, A518, A527, A549.
Avro 504A/J C4323.
Caudron G.III A2998.
Curtiss JN4 A5161.
MF Se.7 2974, 4018.
MF Se.11 A2480, A2497, A4069, A4077, A4134, A6818, A6834, A6848, A7007, A7008, A7009, A7012, A7013, A7018, A7019, A7020, A7021, B4682.
RAF BE2c 2583.
RAF RE8 A3475.
Sopwith Pup B2228, B6127, C261.
Sopwith F1 Camel B4122, B7301, B7319, B7391, B7433, D1806.

18 TS (30 Wing) 30.6.1917
18 RESERVE AEROPLANE/RESERVE/TRAINING SQUADRON RAF
Bases
Formed in 8th Wing at Montrose 1.1.1916. Transferred to 19th Wing 1.5.1916. Designated as a Higher Reserve Squadron and establishment at 23.12.1916 set at 9Avro + 6 BE2 + 3 BE12. Transferred to 30th Wing 1.6.1917. Re-organised as a Scout training unit. Disbanded into 32 TDS 15.7.1918.
Commanding Officers
Capt CEC Rabagliati by 3.1916.
Representative Aeroplanes
Avro 504/504A 2917, 2919, 7733, 7936, 7952, 7956, 7959, 7979, 7981, A448, A451, A452, A518, A527, A549, A551, A553, A555, A2636, A5942, B921, B924, B4203, B4204.
Avro 504J/K B4350, B4351, C557, C558, C651, C652, C4458, D44, D45, D176, D195, D198, D1446, D4417, D4418, D4419, D4420, D7152, D7591, D8297, D8300, E1608.
AW FK3 A8106.
Bristol Scout D 4688, 4699, 5568, 5569, 5579, 5598, 7055, 7056, A1773, A1778, A5209.
Curtiss JN3 5625, 5627. 5631. 5632
Martinsyde S.1 4237, 4243, 4247.
RAF BE2b 2771, 2780, 2781.
RAF BE2c 2106, 2485, 2706, 2707, 2724, 2749, 2781, 4133, 4374, 4424, 4425, 4471, 4472, 4569, 5384, 5397, A4817, A5207, A5208, A5497, A5498, A5499, A8948, A8949, A9974, B386, B387.
RAF BE2e 6772, 6822, 7106, 7116, A1270, A1272, A1877, A1879, A2804, A2891, A3061, A5499, B3995, B9453, B9454, B9457.
RAF BE12 6663, A4041.
RAF BE12a A573, A4041.
Sopwith 1½ Strutter A6030.
Sopwith Pup B5260, B5275, B5277, B5278, B5279, B5329, B5349, B5350, B5379, B6020, B6077, B6081, B6105, B7345, B7489, B7491, B7545, B7575, C287, C4295, D4024.
Sopwith F1 Camel B4637, B5185, B5189, B5225, B5555, B5618, B6295, B7345, B7371, B7374, B7421, B7422, B7423, B7455, B8926, B9164, B9244, C6, C11, C12, C14, C80, C81, D6676, D8131, D8134, D8135, D9534, D9535, E1440.

60 TS 31.7.1917
60 RESERVE/TRAINING SQUADRON RFC/RAF
Bases
Formed in 8th Wing at Beverley 7.4.1917 with nucleus from 36 RS. To Scampton and 23rd Wing 14.4.1917 and disbanded into 34 TDS 15.7.1918.

Representative Aeroplanes
Avro 504A/J A515, A5930, B4319, B4345, B4346, C4499, D175.
RAF BE2e 4523, A1349, A2968, A3063, A3064, B4415, B4440, B4450, B4452.
RAF BE12 6142, 6143.
RAF RE8 A3431, A3496, A3498, A3532, A3558, A3562.
SPAD S.VII
Sopwith Pup B5345, B5907, B7525.
Sopwith F1 Camel B5598.

11 TS 24.9.1917
11 RESERVE/TRAINING SQUADRON RFC/RAF
Bases
Reformed in 19th Wing at Montrose 7.4.1917 with nucleus from 18 RS. To Spittlegate and 24th Wing 14.4.1917. To Scampton and 23rd Wing 15.9.1917 and disbanded into 34 TDS at that station 15.7.1918.
Commanding Officers
Major EO Grenfell MC. Major JO Andrews DSO MC. Major RHM Saundby MC.
Representative Aeroplanes
AMC DH4 A7827.
Avro 504A/J A854, A8521, B937, B3203, B4294, C554.
Bristol Scout D A1768.
Curtiss JN4 B1901, B1902, B1905.
Martinsyde G.102 A3964, A3965, A3966, A3967, A3968.
RAF BE2e A1822.
RAF BE12
RAF RE8 A4557.
Sopwith Pup A6218, B1743, B5322, B6128, B7542, D4127.
Sopwith F1 Camel B4625, B7281, B7431, B7457, C114, C1612, D1808.

39 TS (no date given)
See above

24 Wing HQ 10.1.1918
24th WING RFC/RAF
Base
Formed at Wyton aerodrome 25.90.1916, controlling units at Wyton, Harlaxton and Spittlegate. To Northern Group Command control 10.1.1917. To Spittlegate 24.3.1917. Wyton to 26th Wing 1.5.1917. To Mill House, Grantham. Under 3 Area and 12 Group control 1.4.1918. Under NE Area 8.5.1918. Disbanded 8.5.1919.
Commanding Officer

30 Wing HQ 12.3.1918
30th WING RFC/RAF
Base
Formed at Edinburgh 1.6.1917, controlling units at Montrose and Turnhouse. In 21 Group from 1.4.1918 and to 15 Panmore Place, Montrose 22.7.1918. Disbanded 10.1918.

18 TS
See above

2 ASD (with Expeditionary Force) 18.5.1918
2 Aeroplane Supply Depot – formed at Fienvillers 11.1917 ex 2 Aircraft Depot. To Hesdin by 31.5.1918.

3 Sqn 20.5.1918
Flying Sopwith Camels from Valheureux in 13th Wing, 3 Brigade at this time.

2 ASD 11.6.1918
See above

51 General Hospital, Etaples 8.7.1918

1 ASD 7.9.1918
Formed at St Omer 11.1917 ex 1 AD. To Marquise 10.4.1918.

204 Sqn 27.10.1918
Flying Sopwith camels in 65th Wing, 2 Brigade at this time.

Home Establishment 5.11.1918

SE Area 14.11.1918
SOUTH EASTERN AREA RAF
Base
Formed 8.5.1918 with HQ at the Covent Garden Hotel, London WC2 by re-designating 1 Area. Controlled 1 and 2 Groups (plus 3 Group from 10.5.1918) for training, 4 and 5 Groups that comprised ex RNAS units and 6 (Equipment) Group. 5 Group transferred to Air Mininstry control 8.8.1918. 6 Group re-designated Technical Group, SE Area 15.8.1918. 3 Group transferred to Midland Area. HQ moved to 4 Thurloe Place, Kensington, London 14.4.1919. HQ to Hillingdon House, Uxbridge 13.9.1919. Disbanded into Southern Area 20.9.1919.

NW Area 12.12.1918
NORTH WESTERN AREA RAF
Base
Formed 8.5.1918 with HQ at the Adelphi Hotel, Argyll Street, Glasgow by re-designating 5 Area. Controlled 20 and 21 Groups for training, 22 Group that comprised ex RNAS units and 23 (Equipment) Group. 23 Group disbanded 5.1918. 21 Group disbanded 1.7.1918. 25 Group formed 12.8.1919. HQ to Acomb Hall, York 23.5.1919, absorbing 16, 17 and 18 Groups. Re-designated Northern Area Command 12.6.1919.

22 Group 12.12.1918
22 GROUP RAF
Base
Formed in 5 Area command with HQ spread at the Station Hotel, Stirling 1.4.1918 (Dundee was initially proposed for the HQ). Controlled Marine Operations units in Scotland. To North Western Area command 8.5.1918. Disbanded 30.5.1919.

Dundee Seaplane Station 17.12.1918
Operated 249 Sqn (Short 184) and 257 Sqn (Felixstowe F2A) at this time

Can’t quite decipher some of it but I think the general gist is that Lt Kirkaldy did his early training at Montrose with 39 Reserve Squadron and 18 Training Squadron (part of 30th Wing) before moving to Lincolnshire. 60TS and 11TS being based at Scampton; 39TS at South Carlton and 24th Wing at Grantham. Lastly back to 30th Wing at Montrose.

Info on locations of squadrons from – http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119372

Thanks MM – I have not even tried to work out the training units…RFC training is a minefield LOL

Records of Kenneth Kirkaldy travelling to USA and Canada He may have emigrated to there. The family was in Dundee in 1911 (except his father) and they then moved to England
He was with his parents and brother in Harrow in 1929.

Thanks Robert
I believe that his Brother bought a one way ticket for him to Australia ! where he died in 1947
If he was in Harrow in 1929 – he was probably fresh out of Clink unfortunately !
Funny how 2 brothers – presuming brought up similarly – could turn out so different !

His Brother
Harold Stewart Kirkaldy, M.A., C.B.E. Senior Bursar, Vice-President, Lecturer in Industrial Relations. Montagu Burton Professor of Industrial Relations. Deputy Chairman of the Incomes Commission. Life Fellow from 1970. d.1976.
He married in india in 1921 and was divorced.
Records of Kenneth Kirkaldy travelling to USA and Canada He may have emigrated to there. The family was in Dundee in 1911 (except his father) and they then moved to England
He was with his parents and brother in Harrow in 1929.

Can’t quite decipher some of it but I think the general gist is that Lt Kirkaldy did his early training at Montrose with 39 Reserve Squadron and 18 Training Squadron (part of 30th Wing) before moving to Lincolnshire. 60TS and 11TS being based at Scampton; 39TS at South Carlton and 24th Wing at Grantham. Lastly back to 30th Wing at Montrose.

Info on locations of squadrons from – http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119372

Just one page out of interest…some of it self explanatory – some less so !