Insurance – a killer cost for historic aeroplanes

Scion

Can’t remember, it was years back. He had a friend who had spent 20 years collecting Dragon parts (the ones John & Chalinor purchased) – 26 wings rudders etc buckets and buckets of new parts

cheers

Proctor
Was that my friend John Gallagher?

Scion

Yes the Swallow has been for sale for as long as I can remember, if the right buyer comes along then it goes.

The Dragon is progressing well. Those dragons originated with an idea I had when I contacted someone adverstsing for Anson drawings. I had a lot of dragon drawings and John and I got together to discuss the possibility of scratch building a Dragon, we both had done a Tiger Project and John had done a big wing repair on the Swallow.

We decided we really needed the metal fittings for a viable project. I rang the fellow wanting the Anson drawings and at the end of the conversation asked if he knew where any Dragon bits were – YES was the answer. John ended up buying them and then decided to do a joint venture with Nick and Greg at Mothcair and you know the rest.

cheers

I met John several years ago at the Antiquers flyin at Cowra. I had a talk to him then and 9 years ago the aeroplane was perhaps for sale .

At that stage I could not afford his price and now I have too many aeroplanes and projects to even contimplate another. How is his Dragon going? I believe he has one opf the 3 fus that the chalinor Bros built!

At any rate now to approach the EAA for a weeks insurance. I will report back!

I know of a certain Spitfire for which the annual insurance premium is alleged to be £35,000. If it does 35 hours a year,which is a little on the high side, that’s £1,000 per hour before fuel, maintenanace and paperwork.

Scion

Interesting about the Klemm L25, I have a BA L25 in the hangar (VH-AAB belongs to John Sinclair) and is for sale

cheers

scion,
the basis for separating liability (third party) and pilot/passenger is consent in the case of the passenger. He/she is assumed to know what he/she is getting into and is covered if injured but cannot sue for liability. People may try to sue anyway and in the US, there are many people making a living from it. They are called lawyers … :rolleyes: … and maybe that’s a factor in the decision made by your insurance company to not cover the US.

Christer

Christer,

It seems insurance is similar but not thes same in seperate countries. We are also planning to take a Klemm l25 and a Comper Swift to Oshkosh this year but the Australian companies will not cover anything in the USA. So seperate US insurance will be sought. Our 3rd party covers both passanger liability and damage on ground but not hull damage. The point is that personal injury has an element to it now of seeing what you can get out of it rather than responsibility for your own actions.

Let me relate an incident which is on going.

I operate DH 89a Dragon Rapide VH-UTV and went to the HARS airshow at Albion Park this year.

I gave 2 HARS members, and I am also a member, a flight to the show and return. No money changed hands.

On return to Bankstown one of these men jumped/fell from the wing root before the aeroplane was properly shut down and broke his leg.

He has threatened to sue and wishes now monies for “pain ans suffering” as he puts it. This annoys me intensly.

I am covered by 3rd party insurance but he seems to be keeping from starting legal action untill he is sure if he can get monies also for a potential hip replacement as he is elderly.

you need, repeat need 3rd party insurance.

Sorry for butting in but this is confusing. I’m responsible for running a gliding club (in Sweden) and approximately 25% of the income is from selling gift certificates for rides in a two-seater. The insurance is split three ways: hull value, pilot/passenger and liability. In case of an accident, medical care of the occupants is covered by the pilot/passenger part and any damage or injury to property or people outside the aircraft (in our case, glider) is covered by the liability part.

If a passenger injures him/herself while getting in or out wouldn’t have a case for liability.

Christer

here are the typical costs (in Australia for a year) say for a Tiger Moth, Austers sell for less than half that of a Tiger

Insurance – A$3000
Fuel 28l/hr – 12 hours A$537
Oil – A$50
Annual Inspection – A$1000
Hangarage – A$2160

Total A$6710
Cost/hr A$559

I think that your high hourly rate is actually a function of low utilization.
After all, if you only flew one hour a year your rate would be $6710 per hour!

Say you upped the utilization to 48 hours a year, you would get:
Insurance – A$3000
Fuel 28l/hr – 48 hours A$2148
Oil – A$200
Annual Inspection – A$1000
Hangarage – A$2160

Total A$8508
Cost/hr A$177.25

So there you have a reason for the popularity of syndication – if you sold shares to three other guys and the four of you did 12 hours a year each, you would reduce your hourly rate to one third of its current level.

the incident

My insurance company says that waivers do have some value. Apparently there is a gray area were you can sign away your own rights but not others, ie depandants.

There was a move to classify some sports as “extreem” and as such if you can convince the punter that this is an extreem sport it does help!

Any lawyers with an opinion out there , especially in NSW

Scion

Different person, different approach, same problem.

Getting people to sign waivers doesn’t work, you cannot sign away your legal rights, might bluff some people, but at the end of the day a really green legal eagle (blood suckin leach) will advise a way around it.

Flying is a big risk, taking passengers is a lower risk. the total risk is the sum of them both.

J Boyle

I think you are alluding to what the story is based on.

cheers

The incident

It is a question of balance!

We do not own these vintage aeroplanes, we are in effect in trust of them. They will live longer than we will and we will pass them on to others. The problem is that I receive great joy from sharing the experience with people and letting young folk in particular experience the aeroplanes.

The problem is societal in that greed can assert itself in someones character and then it is a lawers field day.

I will fight this and will not let the insurance Company “pay him off” as this sets in cement a precedent.

So I will continue to fly folk but have to confuse them with an ever more complex “Blood Chit”

I don’t know if turkeys drop dead from fright, however that is the example I normally hear as a arguement to have 3rd party public liability insurance. cheers

At the risk of going off topic, years ago in the American Flying magazine, a Goodyear blimp pilot mentioned a turkey disaster…they appeareantly huddled together from fright and suffocated. Thousands of them.

Back on topic…
Re: scion’s passenger…
To get a free ride, then hurt yourself by doing something stupid, then have the nerve to milk it for “pain and suffering”…the nerve of some people (especially coming from someone who considers himself a supporter of historic aircraft).
What a (fill in the blank….).

Scoin

Of course you are right, but not for that reason. You can restrict who you take as passengers to eliminate that risk.

The problem is if you say “fly low over a turkey farm and there are stock losses as a result” – you could be liable for loss suffered by the owner. I don’t know if turkeys drop dead from fright, however that is the example I normally hear as a arguement to have 3rd party public liability insurance.

I have for some time severely restricted the list of who I take as passengers in my Tiger. I just don’t want to have any grief from law cases, either real or threatened. Life is too short to have to spend time defending one’s actions.

As for the HARS member that is threatened you, I suggest you adopt my policy – no passengers other than very very close friends and immediate family. Your situation no doubt will lead to many potential passengers NOT having the thrill of a “joy Ride” in your Dragon.

I have taken more than a hundred people for a joy ride in my Tiger – some I barely knew, but no more.

As I put up in my original posting, INSURANCE – A KILLER COST FOR HISTORIC AEROPLANES. When I posted it, I hadn’t thought that that also applied to grounding runnable aeroplanes, but it does.

cheers

an incident

Let me relate an incident which is on going.

I operate DH 89a Dragon Rapide VH-UTV and went to the HARS airshow at Albion Park this year.

I gave 2 HARS members, and I am also a member, a flight to the show and return. No money changed hands.

On return to Bankstown one of these men jumped/fell from the wing root before the aeroplane was properly shut down and broke his leg.

He has threatened to sue and wishes now monies for “pain ans suffering” as he puts it. This annoys me intensly.

I am covered by 3rd party insurance but he seems to be keeping from starting legal action untill he is sure if he can get monies also for a potential hip replacement as he is elderly.

you need, repeat need 3rd party insurance.

Joe

I am talking REAL money (that’s Australian Dollars and is there any real money left in the UK, I thought you guys are heading in the same way as Iceland).

Believe it or not, in Australia (with the good flying weather) the average is about 12 hours per year. in your real money (note lower case) an Australian litre of fuel would cost about 80 pence (is that you people still have), it is about A$1.60 a litre here (Australia).

here are the typical costs (in Australia for a year) say for a Tiger Moth, Austers sell for less than half that of a Tiger

Insurance – A$3000
Fuel 28l/hr – 12 hours A$537
Oil – A$50
Annual Inspection – A$1000
Hangarage – A$2160

Total A$6710
Cost/hr A$559

now that’s not cheap even in real money and only for a puddle jumper (DH82a)

cheers

Typically 3-4% of hull value sometimes a lot more in Australia, thus for a Tiger Moth that is about A$3000 approx.

The posting about paying 750 pounds I presume which in real money is about A$1,700 since the typical vintage aeroplane flys about 10-15 hours a year, that is about A$150 an hour – direct operating costs for the Auster are about $50 per hour and about A$1000 for annual inspection. Is that 750 pounts just for public liability insurance, if so what might the hull instrance be?

That makes the insurance the killer cost in my opinion.

cheers

£750 (in real money) is public liability and hull insurance. I think 10 – 15 hours is a little conservative even for serious warbirds. I average around 30, so I find fuel the largest expense.

The Auster averages 35 litres / hour at my current club price of £1.10 /litre. Although last summer we were paying up to £1.60 / litre 😮

It would seem, therefore, that there are differing legal requirements in different countries with regard to the restoration/rebuild of vintage aircraft – whether or not the ultimate aim is to produce a “static” airframe, or a “ground runner” – and in this context I include the “fast taxi” area (with its recent highlight at Bruntingthorpe).
It would also seem, therefore, that regardless of where, or when, or how, vintage aircraft restorers, carers, enthusiasts, etc, etc, wish to pursue their hobby they have to abide by the Rules & Regulations in The Place and at The Time.
It can’t be done on The Cheap! If you haven’t got the money to do it properly then DON’T DO IT – even if they (and fellow enthusiasts) would very much like to see an X Mk 7b(1) Whatever under max power down some runway!
It may come as something of a shock to the committed enthusiasts, but the Govt (and its Agencies), and the Insurance Companies, are NOT vintage aviation buffs!!
Get it right now, or see the ‘sport’ of flying (or ground running) vintage aircraft in UK extinguished for ever.
Not enough people taking the problems seriously enough. Too many enthusiasts and not enough level-headed thinkers.
Regretfully
Resmoroh

One other factor

One other much overlooked factor, within the UK anyway, is directors responsibility to do all possible to reasonably protect the assets of a company. As such, if an aeroplane is company owned and is written off without sufficient hull insurance being in place to make good the financial loss in asset value of the company which owned the aeroplane (if a company owned asset), a director or officer of said owning company could be in for the high jump for not properly discharging their responsibilities.

George