Interesting photo on e bay

Zombie Hurricane P2537

Zombie

Sorry to bring this up but another photo of this Hurricane has popped up on ebay and spotted by someone from TOCH

Thread

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?p=143069#post143069

Photo

http://www.ebay.de/itm/orig-Foto-Kam…item2a19c40266

However, I can’t find a copy of the original photo that startedvthis off in 2007 has anyone a caopy?

Thanks

Paul

I asked Peter Cornwell, what aircraft he has for Appleton on the 14th May 1940.

He kindly sent me a draft list of 79 Sqn losses and damaged aircraft for May 14, 1940, which will appear in his book “Battle of France Remembered”

I will not post the complete list here, only to say

“79 SQUADRON, NORRENT-FONTES

Hurricane P2635. Believed shot down by return fire from He111 of 5./LG1 and reported crashed east of Renaix 7.00 p.m. Pilot Officer L. L. Appleton missing. Aircraft a write-off.

It is thought that ‘Lew’ Appleton may have crashed at Ninove, west of Brussels, but investigation by the MREU postwar was unable to locate and identify his burial. “

Thanks for all the comments. This site excells in things like this and I just love it. If I see anymore I will post them.

Hi Paul,
I appreciate what you are saying, however, there is another point more often overlooked. Many pilots just did not fill in their logbooks for days and sometimes weeks after their flights. As they could well fly a number of different aircraft, the original numbers were often forgotten. To be fair, there are some pilots who just left the number, as well as the code letter, unrecorded.
I know of one aircraft number, recorded in many books, that is wrong. I was informed by the pilot that he did not fill in his logbook until at least 4 weeks after the event and, as he was in many different aircraft he just forgot the number and stuck one in, that was in the Battle of Britain.
The battle of France was fought mainly on the run, pilots had no time to record numbers. Certainly, many of these pilots who returned to Britain by ship, did so without their logbooks, likewise, squadrons lost their paperwork. To be quite honest, there cannot be a definative record on the air battle of France as much of the evidence is missing hence the differing opinions of various writers.

Best Wishes.
Robert.

Now the pic is gone for 102 Euros!

Picture still there though and suggestions comming thick and fast.
Greetings everyone!

Can anyone tell me the history behind this photograph of a Hurricane?

Now the pic is gone for 102 Euros!

Hurricane wreckage

Hello Paul,

Thank you for your reply .

Yes I though of those bail out events and dead pilots too.

In reply to which I can only offer the following from what the photo tells me.

The left side is not visible but can be seen through from the right side around the Cockpit area. So there must have been quite a lot of damage to that side of the aircraft, perhaps from a pilotless landing? Also the Tail section has no Fin or Rudder may have been lost in an overturned crash.
The aircraft may well have been righted and fixed on undercart after a crash so as to provide easy access for dismantleing of the wreckage.

All maybees and mights I know but at this time what else have we ?

All the best
Alex

P2537 was with 79 Sqn

Both Franks (FCL) and Cull (12 Days in May) have Appleton killed in this aircraft on 14th May 40.

Peter Cornwell (on TOCH) who did the Day by Day losses in both Battle of Britain Then and Now and also the follow up books on the Blitz has for a number of years been doing investigation and research on all Battle of France Losses (all nations) for a new book (which is planned to be published late 2007)

He says ” Cull & Franks would both have us believe this was P/O Appleton’s aircraft lost on May 14, 1940, but I doubt this even without the evidence of the photograph.

So he DOUBTED Appleton was on this aircraft P2537 even before the ‘evidence’ of the photograph. When his reseach is published it will probabbly reveal Appleton was on another aircraft

What has singulary been failed to notice by ANYONE is that BOTH the “recorded” history of P2537 and P2577 have involved total losses of the aircraft concerned (bailed out and killed) so how can the photograph be explained!

Paul

79 Sqn – P2537

Hello Rogier,

From Air Brit book P1000-R9999.

P2537 – 79 – Lost in France 5/40.

But I also have it that P2537 was lost with 79 Sqn when on the 14th May 40, P/O. Appleton was S/D in it and Killed.

There was also P3277 that was “Lost in France 5/40 with the CFF.But I think that this was lost with 17 Sqn and Sqn/Ldr G.C.Tomlinson who force landed S of Brussels on the 17th May 40 .Also in N2547 on the 11th May 40 .

Alex

Ok so P 2577 is wiped. Not sure what happened to P 2537, it appears to be missing. However, Paul was making a claim for the fourth digit to be a 3, therefore: P 2573. This aircraft was on 607 Squadron as AF-A and was flown by P/O Peter Dixon on May 11. After running out of fuel, he landed in a field near Tirlemont. While searching for petrol AF-A was destroyed in a bombing attack. Paul’s flat topped 3 must be a 7 after all.
Markings on this Hurricane (photo) show it was of 79 Squadron. It also carries the yellow around the fuselage roundel. Most of the original Hurricanes in France did not have this. However, those squadrons that reinforced the original force did: 79 was one of these squadrons.

Best Wishes.
Robert.

The end of P2577 is worth telling even if it is not the subject of the photograph on e-bay.

I thank my Belgium contact for the following:

P.O. Young’s Hurricane crashed at Essene, 15 miles S.W. of Brussels. He was shot down by British troops. Young baled out, and was shot again whilst hanging from his parachute. When the troops ran to “capture” their victim, they realised they were terribly wrong. Young had several bullet wounds and the soldiers shouted “My god, he’s British”. Young replied: “No, in fact I’m South-African”.

He was evacuated to the UK and hospitalised, and passed away a few years ago as a AVM.

I now look forward to hearing about the demise of P2537.

I have played about with the image on Picasa2 and I am now 99.99% sure that erver that the forth digit is NOT a 7 but a Square 3

The appears to be a definate slight downward line on the left hand side of the top edge and the acute angle on the right is different from the 4th and 5th digits

I also straightened the image

Paul

Don’t forget parallax – viewer is not at right angles to the object. Also the last ‘7’ is on white/light grey – that doesn’t help.

Experiment by printing out the numbers on a sheet of paper then try looking at the tops of the numbers, also letters like ‘e’ and ‘o’, as you push and pull the sides of the sheet. To my aged eyes, there is a flattening out of the top curves as the angle increases.

“I would say that’s a 7. 3s during this period tended to be rounded not straight topped”

Robert
I have spent most of the evening looking for pictures of early 1940 Hurricane’s with 3 in their serials. The only one I could see (in Aircraft for the few) has it 3 as a straight top, NOT rounded.. With an acute angle going down greater than the angle for a 7. I think I can see this acute angle on a zoom of the picture. I am SURE the angles off the last 2 digits are different …

Regards

Paul

Looks like a good candidiate for a caption contest!

I think it was one of those self build planes where you get a couple of parts each week in a magazine ( first issue only 95p ), but I’m guessing he missed a few issues!

Great photo though.

Steve

I have zoomed in to picture and I think I can see the beginings of a 3 instead of a 7 for the 4 digit.
I zoomed in as well, I would say that’s a 7. 3s during this period tended to be rounded not straight topped. Also the angle of the downstroke looks more like a 7 and it goes down past the half where I would expect to see the middle stroke of the 3.
615 were coded KW and I have seen no evidence on 615 or 607 Squadrons to suggest that the codes were changed. Photo is KV a 79 Squadron aircraft. That’s not to say it wasn’t with another squadron. With the confusion of the time, certainly the two squadrons above, used Hurricanes from other squadrons that for one reason or another had been left on their airfield.

Best Wishes.
Robert.

FWIW 615 appear to have used the code KW during period in question -tending perhaps to support the 79 Sqn case.
Its not conclusive ,as codes were often swopped and changed to create confusion to the opposition’s intelligence efforts.

Have we got a fabric or aluminum-wing variant here?

IIRC, as soon as possible, fabric winged Hurris had the metal wing fitted in substitution.

From the picture, the absence of ‘fabric’ type holes in the wing structure (unlike the aileron) indicate it’s probably a metal wing. It’s hard to be certain, but there’s no evidence of the fabric construction, and you can’t see the gun access hatches, which were different, so I’d suggest it’s most likely metal.

Peter Cornwell over on TOCH has abetter solution that ‘fits’

The aircraft in question is probably P2537 ‘Lost in France 1940’ by No. 79 Squadron.

“Cull & Franks would both have us believe this was P/O Appleton’s aircraft lost on May 14, 1940, but I doubt this even without the evidence of the photograph.”

I have zoomed in to picture and I think I can see the beginings of a 3 instead of a 7 for the 4 digit…

Paul

Hurricane I P2577 of 615 Sqn RAF (P/O Brian B Toung wounded)
16. May 1940
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1420