Invincible class CVL future

Thanks for the explanation buffpuff, most educational. I see your point about the angled deck being more safe. But I still have more questions (just plain inquisitive i s’pose 😀 ) :

I believe the Viraat was upgraded to have an angled deck. So why not the MiG29k on the Viraat, i don’t know if it has an exactly stobar kind of set up -arrestor wires and all but how difficult would this be on the Viraat?

And then again, if the Viraat is too old for this type of reworking, why not modify the invincible and get her to have an angled deck?

I guess the question i’m wrestling with is: are the Viraat/Invincible unable to operate any other plane apart from the Harrier (or perhaps the JSF?) thanks largely to the latter’s Vectored thrust engines? And hey, talking about TVC, isn’t the MiG 29k supposed to get that type of engine?

Regards,
USS

Hi newbee here ref the Viraat ex HMS Hermes she was completed in 1959 with an angled flightdeck ,the problem for the Viraat converting to larger fixed wing aircraft is type of aircraft….will it fit on aircraft lifts and also fit in hanger, secondly larger aircraft means fewer carried the same problem go’s with the Invincible class too, 20,000 ton carrier is a small platform for a Mig 29 to land on 🙂

USS, the last Ark Royal to have arrestor wires was pensioned of in 1978. The current ship to bear this name is based on the Invincible. These ships were originally ASW Sea King helo vessels. The US Marines showed that basing Harriers (AV-8A’s) on smaller vessels such as their assualt ships was possible. The RN followed suit.
The angled flight deck was a response to the older flush or straight deck carriers which provided only one lane for taking off and landing. If a pilot missed the wires, then hed most likley hit parked A/C or hit the superstructure of the ship. Look at old WWII footage to see Hellcats and Corsairs coming in for a bad landing and hitting other planes or the supersructure. the split in two or burst into flames…ouch!
The angled flight deck effectively split the carrier deck into two areas. The non angled bit could house parked planes, accommodate deck edge lifts and be used to lauanch craft from the front of the ship. The angled deck area could also launch aircraft. More importantly perhaps, as the landing strip was angled so many degrees AWAY from the superstructure and other A/C. A plane could thus land with much less danger of hitting anything if the pilot missed the arrestor wires altogether.

Thanks for the explanation buffpuff, most educational. I see your point about the angled deck being more safe. But I still have more questions (just plain inquisitive i s’pose 😀 ) :

I believe the Viraat was upgraded to have an angled deck. So why not the MiG29k on the Viraat, i don’t know if it has an exactly stobar kind of set up -arrestor wires and all but how difficult would this be on the Viraat?

And then again, if the Viraat is too old for this type of reworking, why not modify the invincible and get her to have an angled deck?

I guess the question i’m wrestling with is: are the Viraat/Invincible unable to operate any other plane apart from the Harrier (or perhaps the JSF?) thanks largely to the latter’s Vectored thrust engines? And hey, talking about TVC, isn’t the MiG 29k supposed to get that type of engine?

Regards,
USS

USS, the last Ark Royal to have arrestor wires was pensioned of in 1978. The current ship to bear this name is based on the Invincible. These ships were originally ASW Sea King helo vessels. The US Marines showed that basing Harriers (AV-8A’s) on smaller vessels such as their assualt ships was possible. The RN followed suit.

The angled flight deck was a response to the older flush or straight deck carriers which provided only one lane for taking off and landing. If a pilot missed the wires, then hed most likley hit parked A/C or hit the superstructure of the ship. Look at old WWII footage to see Hellcats and Corsairs coming in for a bad landing and hitting other planes or the supersructure. the split in two or burst into flames…ouch!

The angled flight deck effectively split the carrier deck into two areas. The non angled bit could house parked planes, accommodate deck edge lifts and be used to lauanch craft from the front of the ship. The angled deck area could also launch aircraft. More importantly perhaps, as the landing strip was angled so many degrees AWAY from the superstructure and other A/C. A plane could thus land with much less danger of hitting anything if the pilot missed the arrestor wires altogether.

When was the last time a carrier was hit by an anti-ship missile? Or even attacked at sea? 1982?

1945, Kamikaze

If Brazil is smart, they will develop close contacts with India and eventually acquire an ADS derivative to replace current ex-French carrier. It would increased the ADS production run and lower unit cost. Same reason there is talk of future French 2nd carrier being based on future UK carrier. Heck, if they really wanted to get back in the carrier game, even the Australians or the Koreans might benefit from cooperating with India on ADS.

GREAT IDEA! About time I heard someone think alittle out of the box…… 😀 Really, a win-win situation for both……….maybe you could get another country beside Brazil to join? Like say Argentina……maybe a joint buy with both ordering at the same time. So, India could build 4 over say the next 20-25 years. Interesting…………………….

Even if, and it’s a mighty big if you could get a Mig 29 to take off from Invincible’s ramp, you’d have to provide arrestor wires as there are none. There is no angled flight deck either so landing will be fun…

What about Viraat? Can it operate the MiG 29s?

Also, didn’t the Ark Royal (supposed to be invincible class ship) have arrestor wires? what is an angled deck? does it mean that the planes take off at an angle to the surface of the ship (such as via a ski ramp?) or does it mean that the runway strip is at an angle to the ship’s side (such as the case with the Kuznetsov as opposed to the Invincible or viraat)?
Kuznetsov Runway (angular to the side www.volny.cz/recon/ letlod/kuznetsov.htm)
Invincible Runway ( parallel to the side http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/1469.html)

Thanks, USS.

Even if, and it’s a mighty big if you could get a Mig 29 to take off from Invincible’s ramp, you’d have to provide arrestor wires as there are none. There is no angled flight deck either so landing will be fun…

Invincible will need more than “a few modifications” i’m afraid USS novice.

“Agreed that 3 carriers in service might mean 1 in refit and 2 operational. But that is a pretty good scenario for the next few years, IN would be quite happy. Again, I agree that Indian defence procurement progrms seem to take forever, but I choose to be optimistic…”

Yes, I think you are being very optimistic on this point. India is a long way from having 2 fully operational ships whilst one sits in port for refit…like 15 years or so.

In 3-5 years the ex-Ghorshkov sets sail hopefully….at which point you have two.

I don’t see IOC for the new boat until atleast 2010, maybe a little later. As soon as it makes it’s maiden ops voyage, the Viraat comes home for a rest….and I seriously doubt that it ever sails as a warship again. Why? By then you’ve got a 50 year old ship and 30 year old aircraft costing a bundle a operate while you’re two newer vessels are: A) Newer and have already cost a lot to get to sea and therefore will get the majority of funding. B) They are operating similar air wings making training and operations easier. C) The idea of sending this ship back to sea with dissimilar aircraft and it’s ever growing cost of operations will make it economically necessary to retire it, it’s aircraft, and save the money for other naval aviation projects which will be more effective.

Hey, this is an “outside looking in” perspective based on economic realities. I don’t have any emotional ties to this, thus I make my statements. I have to conclude that any serious naval planning would conclude the same….and it really is for the better of the force. What good is a money, time, and resource bleeding item like the Viraat/Sea Harrier when your navy is moving forward with newer and better equipment? What real good will come from milking an extra cruise from this aging combo when the funding can better be spent on the next generation or on simple improvements to your existing force of two carriers which are already dramatically more capable?

Right, Wanshan and joeinTexas, i agree about your misgivings with a new Invincible for the IN. especially if it means diversion of funds from the ADS program. I also agree that they should think long term, but I don’t think they can afford to ignore short term scenario.

So as a short term solution, i would still prefer they go for the Invincible because, then they can retire the Viraat and still have at least 2 a/c carriers until ADS 1 comes along, thereafter they can have 3. i don’t think IN is too happy with having just one carrier around (gorshkov after viraat retires). i know overall this a more expensive solution, but you gotta pay the piper one way or the other. lack of planning/purchases in the last decade means extra spending now!

An aside, here is a questoin i’m intrigued by:

1) Can the MiG29ks operate from Invincible? Since they already are being tested on a STOBAR setup on the Kuznetsov, why not the Invincible (of course with few modifications)?

2) Can they operate from Viraat? Since it is a little bigger than the Invincible?

Is this technically practical? Any nitty gritties will be appreciated by this newbie:)

kind regards,
USS>

In India’s case I would have to agree. She needs to move away from second hand Carriers like the ex-Hermes. To new built ships like the future ADS Carriers. But, more importantly she has the resources to do so…….countries like Brazil mite not have that luxury 🙁 On the other hand small VTOL Carriers like Spain’s “Principe de Asturias” offer alot of bang for the buck as we American say :rolleyes: I wouldn’t be surprised to see more and more of them in another 10-15 years 😀

If Brazil is smart, they will develop close contacts with India and eventually acquire an ADS derivative to replace current ex-French carrier. It would increased the ADS production run and lower unit cost. Same reason there is talk of future French 2nd carrier being based on future UK carrier. Heck, if they really wanted to get back in the carrier game, even the Australians or the Koreans might benefit from cooperating with India on ADS.

I would. Whoever wants them will have to buy F-35. So the USA will have much control over who builds them.

How is that different from the situation today, with the (Sea)Harrier and Harrier II being the only viable aircraft for ships like the Principe d’Asturias. Its either used or new british Shars and GR7s or american AV8Bs.

“Agreed that 3 carriers in service might mean 1 in refit and 2 operational. But that is a pretty good scenario for the next few years, IN would be quite happy. Again, I agree that Indian defence procurement progrms seem to take forever, but I choose to be optimistic…”

Yes, I think you are being very optimistic on this point. India is a long way from having 2 fully operational ships whilst one sits in port for refit…like 15 years or so.

In 3-5 years the ex-Ghorshkov sets sail hopefully….at which point you have two.

I don’t see IOC for the new boat until atleast 2010, maybe a little later. As soon as it makes it’s maiden ops voyage, the Viraat comes home for a rest….and I seriously doubt that it ever sails as a warship again. Why? By then you’ve got a 50 year old ship and 30 year old aircraft costing a bundle a operate while you’re two newer vessels are: A) Newer and have already cost a lot to get to sea and therefore will get the majority of funding. B) They are operating similar air wings making training and operations easier. C) The idea of sending this ship back to sea with dissimilar aircraft and it’s ever growing cost of operations will make it economically necessary to retire it, it’s aircraft, and save the money for other naval aviation projects which will be more effective.

Hey, this is an “outside looking in” perspective based on economic realities. I don’t have any emotional ties to this, thus I make my statements. I have to conclude that any serious naval planning would conclude the same….and it really is for the better of the force. What good is a money, time, and resource bleeding item like the Viraat/Sea Harrier when your navy is moving forward with newer and better equipment? What real good will come from milking an extra cruise from this aging combo when the funding can better be spent on the next generation or on simple improvements to your existing force of two carriers which are already dramatically more capable?

I would. Whoever wants them will have to buy F-35. So the USA will have much control over who builds them.

Well, that may be true to a point. Yet, no one is stopping other countries from developing VTOL aircraft. Maybe Russia should consider bring the Yak-41M Freehand out of mothballs……….. :rolleyes:

I would. Whoever wants them will have to buy F-35. So the USA will have much control over who builds them.

In the long run, it is wiser for India to invest in the capability to design and build ships like the ADS than to keep acquiring used ships from elsewehere that have limited usefull service life and questionable suitability for the intended role. Without the capability to produce ADS, the problem is only shifted 15-20 years in time and what is there to replace Invincibles then if not ADS. So, ADS is a must for India. At this point acquiring one or more Invicibles would just detract from ADS and suck up money and other resources that are better spent on ADS and fleet modernization.

In India’s case I would have to agree. She needs to move away from second hand Carriers like the ex-Hermes. To new built ships like the future ADS Carriers. But, more importantly she has the resources to do so…….countries like Brazil mite not have that luxury 🙁 On the other hand small VTOL Carriers like Spain’s “Principe de Asturias” offer alot of bang for the buck as we American say :rolleyes: I wouldn’t be surprised to see more and more of them in another 10-15 years 😀

As pointed out before, age certainly does not seem to stop the IN from operating ships. The logic of my proposal is – why not have one really old ship (viraat), one relatively old ship (Invincible) for near-shore blue water ops, while the Gorshkov and ADS can project effective force in the greater IOR.

My point exactly, the Invincible should not be considered a great long term investment, but i can see her do a decent job near shore at least for another 15 years or so.

Manpower should be one of india’s greatest strengths (there a whole bunch of decently qualified youngsters looking for jobs in India). India probbly churns out more engineers than any other country, many of these guys are often frustrated because of unemployment. grads from other fields are even more hard pressed to find jobs. india has a huge population, but it’s manpower age population forms a high content of this large number. In terms of being able to handle more carrier groups, pilots, maintenance crews etc I don’t see any country better suited for the job. Yes, it will cost more but I have always felt that with its increasingly booming economy, India underspends on Defence matters in a big way.

Agreed that 3 carriers in service might mean 1 in refit and 2 operational. But that is a pretty good scenario for the next few years, IN would be quite happy. Again, I agree that Indian defence procurement progrms seem to take forever, but I choose to be optimistic. Who knows, they may actually get the ADS rolling by 2012-2015.

As regards wasting resources on refitting the Viraat for Mig 29K ops since it is already too old, perhaps they can refit the relatively newer Invincible for the same? The Mig 29K does not seem to be any bigger than the Harrier in size, esp. with folding wings. So if the Invincible could carry a few of these, it could surely cause plenty of problems for potential threats in India’s neighborhood.

Sure, nothing good is ever easy. 😉 But, if there is not a technical obstacle which makes Invincible operations for the IN impractical, i feel the IN should definitely go for it.

Just my humble opinion.

In the long run, it is wiser for India to invest in the capability to design and build ships like the ADS than to keep acquiring used ships from elsewehere that have limited usefull service life and questionable suitability for the intended role. Without the capability to produce ADS, the problem is only shifted 15-20 years in time and what is there to replace Invincibles then if not ADS. So, ADS is a must for India. At this point acquiring one or more Invicibles would just detract from ADS and suck up money and other resources that are better spent on ADS and fleet modernization.

When was the last time a carrier was hit by an anti-ship missile? Or even attacked at sea? 1982?

US recently did live firings on a decommed carrier, various ammunitions including AShM and PGM.

Really, if a country like Brazil for example wants a cheap Carrier. They mite be better to buy a small Carrier like Spains. Then equip it with second had Harriers or possibly new JSFs? You may even get a country like Korea or even China to construst it at considerable savings. These are really simple ships and are not complex to design and/or build…………………… 😀

Well, consider that the Invincible class ships are OLDER (Invincible commisioned 1980, Illustrious in 1982, Ark Royal in 1985) already than the Gorshkov (commissioned in 1987). Same age group as IN Kashin destroyers. Also while Gorshkov was non-operation from 1993 onwards and is now getting a major refurbishing, the Invincible class ships have been operational all the time and probably wouldn’t get a similar refurbishment.
…

As pointed out before, age certainly does not seem to stop the IN from operating ships. The logic of my proposal is – why not have one really old ship (viraat), one relatively old ship (Invincible) for near-shore blue water ops, while the Gorshkov and ADS can project effective force in the greater IOR.

If and when the first ADS enters service in 2012, the Invincile will be 32 and Ark Royal 27 years old. By 2020 these ships will be between 35 and 40 years old and due replacement. Looking at Hermes/Viraat, you might still get another 10-15 years out of them if you had to, but still their usefulness for power projection would remain limited. At best I would use them – with Gorshkov – as stop gap while building up the number of larger, new ADS to the desired minimum level of 3. As more ADS become available, they could be relegated to pure ASW or heliborne assault roles.

My point exactly, the Invincible should not be considered a great long term investment, but i can see her do a decent job near shore at least for another 15 years or so.

However, in addition to the vessel age issue (and, in relation to that, the age of ship technology and wear), there is the issue of manning and escorting to consider. Manning 5 rather than 3 carriers in itself puts a drain on manpower resources. Furthermore, more carriers means more aircraft, i.e. more pilots and maintenance crews. Also, carriers need escorts and so more carriers need more escorts, which in turn translates to even greater manpower needs. Not only do all these folks need to be recruited and trained, they also need to be fed, clothed and paid for the duration. Then add the cost of operating 5 rather than 3 carrier groups (fuel, stores etc, all logistics and maintenance involved). We’re talking big big buck here.

Manpower should be one of india’s greatest strengths (there a whole bunch of decently qualified youngsters looking for jobs in India). India probbly churns out more engineers than any other country, many of these guys are often frustrated because of unemployment. grads from other fields are even more hard pressed to find jobs. india has a huge population, but it’s manpower age population forms a high content of this large number. In terms of being able to handle more carrier groups, pilots, maintenance crews etc I don’t see any country better suited for the job. Yes, it will cost more but I have always felt that with its increasingly booming economy, India underspends on Defence matters in a big way.

Sure, I suppose India could have three carriers officially in possession in three years if everything goes right….in various states of construction, disrepair and operation. But, that’s not the same as three combat ready in-service vessels which can be counted on for use. The ex-Gorshkov might be under trial by then, I don’t know. The Viraat likely will be operating at it’s limited pace unless something mechanical or structural has threatened it. And, the new carrier may be taking shape in the dockyard, but. Considering the speed at which so many Indian programs run, who can really say when their latest boat will be finished..?

Agreed that 3 carriers in service might mean 1 in refit and 2 operational. But that is a pretty good scenario for the next few years, IN would be quite happy. Again, I agree that Indian defence procurement progrms seem to take forever, but I choose to be optimistic. Who knows, they may actually get the ADS rolling by 2012-2015.

As regards wasting resources on refitting the Viraat for Mig 29K ops since it is already too old, perhaps they can refit the relatively newer Invincible for the same? The Mig 29K does not seem to be any bigger than the Harrier in size, esp. with folding wings. So if the Invincible could carry a few of these, it could surely cause plenty of problems for potential threats in India’s neighborhood.

So, it is not just a matter of “can we get some more flat topped hulls” …

Sure, nothing good is ever easy. 😉 But, if there is not a technical obstacle which makes Invincible operations for the IN impractical, i feel the IN should definitely go for it.

Just my humble opinion.

When was the last time a carrier was hit by an anti-ship missile? Or even attacked at sea? 1982?

Wanshan is dead-on with regards to my comments about India having any number of operational carriers anytime soon.

Sure, I suppose India could have three carriers officially in possession in three years if everything goes right….in various states of construction, disrepair and operation. But, that’s not the same as three combat ready in-service vessels which can be counted on for use. The ex-Gorshkov might be under trial by then, I don’t know. The Viraat likely will be operating at it’s limited pace unless something mechanical or structural has threatened it. And, the new carrier may be taking shape in the dockyard, but. Considering the speed at which so many Indian programs run, who can really say when their latest boat will be finished..?

As for CTOL from the Viraat, a Mig-29K would be pretty limited operating STOL from the limited deck space of the ex-Hermes. You would need to once again reconfigure the ship (i.e. even more time in dock and not at sea) for conventional use and all the necessities…..arresting gear, launching gear, all of the associated signalling and operating systems, etc. Why put a 40 year old ship up for not-so-minor refitting when it’s useful life is so short rather than just allowing it and it’s aircraft to spend their last few years of service at sea and producing something? Pouring any more resources and money into this ship than that which is absolutely required to keep it afloat and operating as it is with some effectiveness seems like a temendous waste that could be much better spent on other things….