Invincible for the IN

Its doubtful that the AG will be in service so soon. (i.e. 5 years) I will take several years at least for her to become fully operational. Its a very complex undertaking with many unknown factors.

And the known ‘unknown’ factors almost always have been the non-Russian systems that had to be integrated into the specs that India mostly gave when customizing, and these in almost all cases earlier was affected coz of the sanctions and the non-availability of the funds for the Indian Defence services. And FYI the Gorshkov will be handed over after up gradation by end 2008 or after 4 yrs but 5 yrs is still ok and no probs abt that.

First the ship will need to be refitted. Then basically torn apart and reconstructed.

And u got any probs with refitting, tearing apart and then again reconstructing????

Even after its completion there will be much training and work ups………If, we see the AG fully combat ready in 10 years. I would consider it to be a near miracle.

yup and u definitely forgot the Kuznetsov or is that a forced memory loss?? …. IN’s chaps (air-wing) maybe able to get themselves trained on the Russian carrier in case there is more work to be done. And training and work up are the wildest card that u cud have got to bash the Russians man … but then let me say again that its not gonna be a miracle, coz practically the Gorshkov was stamped as ‘meant for India’ ever since Boris Yeltsin learned the hard lesson and started his ‘look east policy’ which made him gift the carrier to India restarting the new era of Indo-Russian cooperation which was nearly stagnant ever since that chap took over and was selling off Russia to western business Tycoons. The gift was also to revitalize the ship building industry and the RAC-MiG which needed contract for furthering their newer projects development. And this deal was a done deal ever since then, but the monetary part was the only one which basically stalled or delayed the deal for so long. After all u need to understand that for EARNING One dollar – Indian Navy had to first EARN 48 Indian Rupees and that’s nothing mean. And the deal was for $1.5Billion.

So in a sense by the time 2008-9, it wud bt already 13 yrs since theoretically the Gorshkov was handed over to India. And u don need to worry abt IN, they know their stff much better than the other two services abd much much better than some western so-called ‘experts’.

Beside Russia and India’s track record in this regard isn’t so good. On the other hand the Invincible could be incorporated within the Indian Navy relatively easy.

really?? …. Can u elaborate that ‘relative’ easy term ?? …. And how much of a track record do u know abt Indo-Russian relations or deals?? ….. did u know how much yrs the Indian Navy took for its Build up to its best yrs after the last war with Pakistan, in 1971?? … and many ex-naval guys will rem (of course not the modern day $$ funded and influenced chaps reporting) the Soviet Admiral Gorshkov who had his part in building-up of the Indian Navy and do u know how much delay was there in the Kashin class destroyers that India bought from Russia or the delay in the Kilo’s that India got from Russia or say the custom made An-32 which the Russians made for an Indian requirement and not for their own?? Well I shud be insane asking u that …. if u got any pain seeing the Russians getting some bugs out of the deal and a fear of a revitalized Russian industries and others, I cant help u out …

Remember, that India already flies the same Aircraft (Harriers/SeaKings) as the RN does on the Invincible class carriers.

yes and that’s the only reason y I’d like the Invincible to be in here only if come for a decent price of below $100million and since the IN’s current carrier wont be there for long Invincible can either take care of that Harriers till 2015, but I want the Invincible be made into Helo carrier for amphibious ops etc etc , but the Harrier chapter has to end by 2015, anything even further mean the British will dump all that in here and make another headache for the Indian tax-payers and Indian navy.

Further, India doesn’t have to buy SHAR’s. (would be a good idea) They can use there current complement of Harriers and SeaKings.

yup, but these chaps will soon be goin out, and the first one out has to be the Sea Kings, replace it with the NH-90’s and so can this be the main stay of the Invincible ONLY IF it comes for a decent enough price.

The main problem for India in the short term is the platform. (i.e. ship) The current AirWing will do find for the next 10 years or so.

The current air-wing will do just fine till the max of 2015 , hope u forgot that the Harrier that IN operate was ex-RN harriers , and did u see the manufactures put the service life of the Harriers anywhere near to 40 yrs?? Which means Harriers chapter has to close at 2015 at max , and no more SHAR in btn that period where by the IN has to take the burden of keeping the Harrier service depot open much longer. This was just recently opened and all that may point out that the foxy British might be cooking up ideas and advices that —– “look now that u got a service depot, u can buy our newer Harrier and also make bugs by servicing others harrier” —— and that advice and idea wud be what the cunning guys wud be now selling to the idiots in the Indian Govt and IN and why to wonder abt that , it can be seen in here too.

But, that doesn’t do you much good without a ship to fly them from! So, in the near future India could have a modern VTOL Carrier (2-3 years at most) for little money (Remember, what Brazil paid for the Foch…..peanuts) until the AG and ADS carriers enter service………………..IMHO

k can u tell me who much peanuts did that Foch cost???

And FYI the French carrier Foch first entered the French service in 1963 and now she has got 41 yrs to her service , and if am not wrong Brazil is gonna decommission it by 2005 or before 2010, but if they got it for peanuts, even then fine, as the carrier did not had much time left for service and the time they can squeeze out of that will do good for them when they have a new carrier in the future. In all they will get atleast 5 yrs of experience from it starting from 2001 – 2006. But I hope the Brazilian’s don loose their carrier capability and start building one so that these men can change over to the new one and also make sure the hard earned training don go waste like what happened to the Indian Navy’s N-submariners. They were forced out coz neither the Indian Govt or Boris Yeltsin under the influence of ‘Godly advice’ were ready to extend the lease of the N-sub to the Indian Navy anymore.

Hey, Glenn what are your thoughts on the subject?

Australia never ever was happy with any of Indian Naval programs, and if u did not know, the main ally of Unkil against the Indian Navy in this part of the world was (and still is) the Australian Navy, but IN simply pulled it away from them in the mid-80’s, but definitely I’m waiting for a chance next time the Australian P-3C Orion shadow any other IN ships like they did after the ‘98’ N-test on INS Delhi for updating the list of USN’s ‘library’. I’d like the Govt to show some guts and shoot at least a warning short next time these guys do that and so wud I’ve loved to see the American U-2 that crossed the Pokhran N-test site after ‘98’ being shot down. Which unfortunately did not happen even after the AD units locked on to it … and did the mistake of asking for permission, answer to which was in negative.

Russia and India have had several military projects together. From Frigates to Fighters (Su-30) none of which have been on time or budget! The AG and its Airwing (Mig29K & NLCA) may very well be the way forward for the Indian Navy. Its going to be a very long wait anyway you look at it……

and have u ever checked on to y that never was on time u ??? well I can safely assume it’s a big No. Yup its been a very long time since 96 as the IN simply did not have the funds which made the price quoted by the Russians to be fullfilled very difficulty coz u know Indian Rupee HAD NO VALUE against the dollars. But since u don know any stuff, let me tell u that , the Gorshkov have been clean up fully by 2003 end or to be more precise before the contract was signed which was a MANDATORY clause in the deal, which means that , Gorshkov will be/was handed over to Indian Navy like it was in 96 or when the ship was in operation in the Russian navy before it went out-of service. And from there on the modification that the Indian Navy has request for will be carried out which will make the carrier 65-70 % new.

I am not going to become involved in any flame war! If, you can’t take your political views out of the debate your on the wrong forum. Further, just because I don’t agree with the Gorshkov deal and/or any other Indian Military Program. Doesn’t mean that I am anti-Indian! (or anti-Russian or any other country for that matter!) If, it be know I am a great supporter of India and a strong defense for her people. Its just my opinion that the Gorshkov in not in India’s long term interest. That is solely my opinion and mine alone. If, you have a counter point I would be glad to hear it and debate it point by point if you like? On the otherhand if you want to call names and throw a tantrum like a child. Take it somewhere else………………………….I am personally not interested!

u pretty well know to hide behind the ‘flame war’ shield, good! ….. and its not political views but damn Political FACTS and if u can’t understand that I think its just like “frog in the pot”‘.

And u’ve not yet given any convincible reply for why u think that Gorshkov is not in India’s long term interests at the same time u simply don get the stuff as to how much Gorshkov means to the base of 3rd build-up of the Indian Navy

I believe India does need 3 carriers as soon as possible! That said, its going to be at least 10+ years before any long term solution could be put in place.

India needed 3 carriers long ago, which unfortunately never saw the light. As per my view the perfect number that India needs is 6 carriers of the Gorshkov size by 2020 (which was very much possible and is possible if the determination is there!!!) which means that one each carrier is at the disposal of the 4 naval commands and 2 as reserves or which means that at any damn worst time 2-3 carriers wud be available.

That long-term solutions script began with the Gorshkov but wud have actually begun with the Vyrag, if the political heads had bit more guts and a sense of their duty to the Nation, which unfortunately and not surprisingly was not there. But Gorshkov has made the first step to that long-term solution which will be cemented with the addition of 2-3 more a/c carriers by 2020 (hope so), which makes the IN to have the Gorshkov to fill-in the GAP in operational requirements when any of the other carriers goes to the docks or vice versa.

I don’t like the Groshkov deal for many reasons. First, she not going to enter service much sooner than a new ship built from the ground up.

She is going to enter service in a very maximum of 5 years and if that much time is taken it has its reasons, which the likes of you ignore and that is – she is going to be rebuilt bottom-up to finally make it 65-70 % new!! …… And that means 65-70% new carrier coming out under 4-5 years very well meet the projected periods for a brand new carrier of its size to be built.

Brother, I request you to write down that 65-70% new figure for Gorshkov on a piece of paper and put it straight in front of where ever u look when u get-up so that next time u don loose memory and take this same thing abt the service date, time consuming etc etc.

And I’d like you to print this quote of yours and come up when the first CVF is commissioned to check out how much time a ship of that size needs to get into service. Also you are conveniently ignoring the very basic fact of the time consuming that goes into modifying a design than building a ship based on a new design.

Second, she going to expensive to maintain and operate.

Where u the one to maintained it till now???……. Frankly brother, y don u stfu.

That said, can u give me the yearly expense of the Invincible class her sister in the RN??? …… I’d be waiting for a reply from you on this one for sure.

Third, much new infrastucture will be needed to support her.

That’s the favorite thing that’s propagated by those who don like to see the Indian Navy expand. And the Gorshkov is going to be the base of the Indian Navy’s 3rd Expansion looking to the future after the 2nd, which culminated in start of 10 years of DRAUGHT! Stretching itself now will mean that Indian Navy wud be better off in the future, and if the infrastructure is not there, it has to be built, I wonder, if u did not had a toilet, u never ****? —— in plain terms don make more dumb of urself by these ridiculous theory abt the infrastructure, if its not there it has to be built and not call off the project as is the case with the Indian MOD. That was the PRIMARY reason in addition to the funds that any heavier a/c carrier was not considered, as many idiots say, many ports can’t accommodate it or the water isn’t deep enough – that’s really pity. Frankly r u not ashamed talking like that?

Four, her Airwing will be near obsolescences by time she reaches service.

And ur reason for that obsoleteness can’t be anything more than not just choosing the British Harriers and u can check some facts before u open-up abt the air-wing, that wud be considered as a bit maturity from you, frankly.

Fifth, her Airwing is much to small for a ship of her size and weight. I could go on and on…………………..

Yup a squadron of MiG-29K seems pretty small, but again it’s still much much ahead of what 10-20 Harriers wud have provided. And there is not any real comparison in that. Again that figure of 16 cud be the initial ones as the IN wud have to check out the deck management and I don have any doubt that after the operations starts, IN wud be able to manage more MiG-29K on the deck or as said nearly 24-30 MiG-29K’s. The 16 x MiG-29K is the ‘safest’ minimum air wing that the Gorshkov will accommodate initially.

The Gorshkov is going to be a very expensive short solution and will offer little in power projection to the Indian Navy. Bad Idea…………..

Gorshkov is not a SHORT TERM solution FYI and in any way its going to see or cross 2030, if the British Short term if 15 yrs, fine, its really Short Term, but how wud u rate the HMS Hermes (INS VIRAAT) term – short term or half-short-term???…..coz the Viraat actually was to serve only for 10 years and by which time 2-3 indigenous a/c carries wud have come up to replace it. But that never happened coz of myopic political heads and immaturity.

And yes a carrier that has the capability to transit ‘only’ 1000 miles per day in the IOR with a full compliment of 30 a/c offer little power projection. But that said, it has it limits in projecting power coz the limiting factor is the number of a/c, but for the role it is intended now, it more than makes its case very well. And once the IN starts managing the decks I am sure the capacity wud definitely increase to the said number of 30 a/c, after all all need have to be stored under deck or on the deck.

Alright, lets take the Mig-29K first. You believe it will be in the same class as F/A-22’s, F-35’s, Typhoons, Rafales, Su-30’s, Gripens, and even India’s own LCA?

I forgot to include the Chinese J-10!

now have the F-22, EF, J-10, Grippens have made/will make it to the decks???…. if u have made it to the decks we’ll consider that, now abt the F-35, You can provide me some RCS figures of the F-35 and F-22 and others —- now the Ka-31 may be able to find the F-35 at 35 km from itself which means that the MiG-29K’s wont be totally blind and can use its tracking devices to engage the stealthy fighter, which in anyway wud make up larger RCS the moment it opens up its bay.

Well abt the a/c u mentioned
F-22 – it’s the new godly stuff now which does not mean its not invincible but got pretty lot of advantages cos of its LO, but still has to come to its EMCON-3, 4 & finally EMCON-5 mode to finally fire the amraam which in anyway wud give its position to the opponents radar coz of its own radar emission starting from the 3rd mode. Now the raptor can launch any missile if the 50mile IRST has got any IR missile to support that range. Which means that w/o the radar emission to be caught by the opponents RWR- as the final mode makes the later-on modes make it out of the LPI if am not wrong, so Raptor wud definitely have to go radar silent till the amraam’s range and then illuminate it but then for the raptor to fire its amraam it will definitely come with in the MiG-29K’s IRST’s range and that wud definitely give the MiG’s a chance to fight. Rest is classified … 🙂

F-35, now its is not an F-22 and don have the same class of radar as the F-22 or a 100km range missile which means that it wud definitely come on the MiG-29’s IRST if not the radar and that will give the MiG’s a chance to fight.

EF- its not even in the class of the above two nor do have any exceptional LO, all will depend on the supports available as is the 2 cases above. And that said the MiG’s have 1000Kg extra fuel than the EF to stay up and play longer.

Rafale- Yup same case, but with more goodies than the EF in the field of LO and radar cancellation, but again supports has its role and have a 500 Kg fuel advantage over the EF

Su-30 and LCA – I consider LCA to be inadequate for carrier ops coz of its range and I believe it has got a load to fill the IAF, so it wud be better that LCA is concentrated for the IAF but also that NLCA is fully developed. And these (MKI) 3 a/c will have many systems in common in the avionics department but the radar department will weigh in favor of tt the Su-30MKI > MiG-29MKI> Tejas

The projected Mig-29K would be very effective if available today. That’s the whole point. She won’t be available for another 10 years and the basic Mig design is already 20-30 years old. Equipping the Mig-29 with state of the art electronics and weapons is only so effective. That would be like equipping the Gorshkov with upgraded F/A-18C’s. Don’t get me wrong a very potent aircraft in 2004 indeed! But, would you want to fly the same aircraft against future 5th generation fighters in say 10-20 years from now? Do you really want to fly and fight your Mig-29K against Rafales, Typhoons, Gripens, J-10’s, Su-35’s, F-35, and yes even F/A-22’s.

and ur conclusion for that in all probability is not to mention ut usual quotes … so I let it there for u to update urself and open-up next time. And I wondr how come u guys even tend to make the IN but the Harrier which don have a future even now and how come u guys inducting a European pride in the form of EF??….and then F/A-18 E/F which is inferior in performance to C/D except for the new eye catchy goodies and even after that there is no guarantee that the F/A –18E/F will ever have the guts to face any opponent on one-on-opne basis w/o the help of the Killer awacs and aew.

Now don get me wrong – u know Harrier has to be scrapped w/o any time loss and EF too has to follow that coz the first one has already completed its any usefulness and the second is already getting nowhere and that will save a lot of money which can go to improving the briton’s living standards and a better life for future citizens.

JonS

Gorshkov will mainly be utlisied for interdiction of enemy fighter planes and i doubt IN will venture beyond IAF’s air support. Assuming those two factors, mig-29 or even SHAR with bvr capability will more than be capable of dealing with major threats faced in south asia. This mainly because carrier borne fighter planes used in air defense have only to deal with enemy figher aircrafts carrying light AA missile armament or none at all and also enemy fighter aircrafts in Asuw cant afford get into dogfight with carrier borne fighters because of risk of using up fuel and likely hood of ground based reinforcements to interdict them on the way back.

The main intention of the carrier itself is to venture outside the IAF’s air support, which even now is not anything very comprehensive or exceptional. And squadrons of Mig-29K’s from the Gorshkov wud do much better than what a squadron of Jaguar or Su-30MKI can do taking off from an IAF base – Quick Intervention. And that said I’d have loved to see a fixed winged Yak-44 AEW, not that the Ka-31 wont do the job, but the other looks more

Steve,

Seems like I could’ve jumped the gun a bit here and someone in the MoD, though I can barely believe it, has looked objectively at our carrier utilisation and determined that there really is still enough life left in Invincible to merit her retention in the Fleet.

I’ve heard from one, well placed, RN source that Invincible is going to be kept on in reserve status probably as a backstop for HMS Ocean when she refits. The recent defence statement from MoD is still valid in that there will only ever be one carrier fully operational at any one time, but, having two additional flight decks at varying levels of readiness for deployment in reserve would be VERY good news compared to what we were all staring down the barrel of a few weeks ago!.

I’ll pray with u that British don give up their invincible and let all put the hilarious superiority and cost and operational-effectiveness of the British Invincible and Harriers over the Russian Gorshkov and MiG-29’s, the regular interval dosage of the British advise to the Indian MOD, the media dosage for Indian audience and this thread to a final close once and for all!

Seeings the damage has already been done with the Gorshkov’s acquisition going through it seems a bit pointless for me to pursue this one much further!. I think I have clarify the position I took to correct what you wrote above though!.

And that’s a really a brilliant way to end a debate! Tks Steve for all ur advice to the IN, I never knew that anyone cud be out there who cares for the welfare of the Indian’s so much. But don worry u got a follower over here, who understands absolutely nothing.

I said that, in my estimation, the Gorshkov offered little usable capability in terms of the missions it could accomplish, as an independant unit, over Invincible with her FA2 airwing. Now, with the IN set on the STOBAR course irrevocably, there is little sense in them acquiring Invincible other than as a method of stretching every last bit of service life possible out of the SHAR infrastructure they already have, as an augmentation of the Gorshkov capability until its airgroup becomes fully operational (some years after the vessel commissions naturally) or ultimately as an ASW carrier/LPH.

Tks steve for ur estimation, As an Indian I’m ready to accept Invincible at not more than $100million refurbished, Final Bid! …. Wont her majesty be kind enough to gift that carrier to India as a token of respect for being the Crown Jewel of the never setting Colonial British Empire along with the other goodies that she still keeps.

Are those reasons sufficient to warrant the expenditure of several hundred million dollars?. No, to be honest, I dont think they are.

yes pretty much that’s a very good reason which u can’t see coz u just need to tow away that invincible that’s in front of you.

The only justification that has significant merit there, IMO, is the blue-water ASW role – a mission the IN have to start taking a great deal more seriously if its thinking of competing with the PLAN over the next couple of decades. For that mission though, as I’ve said before, the JMSDF are the ones setting the pace with their DDH escort proposals and the IN would be well advised to look to following that course rather than looking at a full through-deck CVH.

ASW is the secondary one and the primary one being the fleet defence. And yes Gorshkov wud be the first step towards to fulfilling that long cherished basic necessity of the Indian navy!

IN develops its own formula dn not apply the others over here as such Japanese one is good for them and IN got their set of role to play, again India is not an American ‘market’ like what Japan is now or like what once great British Empire is now.

Essentially then, with the development of events being what they are, SHAR FA2 is now very much less of a viable proposition for the IN. Given my recent track record though that probably means they’ll be purchasing them next week!.

whats that?….can u explain to me that in simple english plzzz 😀

5 MFDs in the Super Hornet? Where are they going to put the 5th? See below for the current SH cockpit.

There’s a pic of the same in one of the recent issues of ‘Aerospace Engineering’. The two additional 3×3 inch MFDs are mounted below the eye-level 5×5 inch ones. I must mention that it was a simulator though. The one attached to the HUD is’nt an MFD but a touchscreen UFCP.

Ahh a type that leads to a dead-end right up until the point where a STOVL PAK-FA appears on the horizon eh Garry?!.

No. If it was a case of just buying Russian then the Yak-141 could be developed if necessary. The reality is that the Indians have tried VSTOL and they want to go bigger… Just like the Russians did with their Kiev class carriers. The reality is that you need a relatively big carrier for decent AEW, and if you have a big carrier anyway why not shoehorn some more conventional fighter type on it.

Fine, but they still have to get maintenance afloat sorted out and may not have planned for the expenditure of re-engining and reworking the avionics of their airforce Fulcrums IF that process is as simple as you portray it?.

The engines are compatible. The Wings are directly compatible… you can unbolt the wings of a Mig-29M and fit them to any Mig-29… obviously they will need rewiring for the ECM system and the extra pylon, but most of the old avionics will be replaced anyway… reducing weight by 600kgs.

I have no information on what it would take to bring one of the IAF Fulcrums to -29MK standard but I cant imagine that it would be cheap!. Will such expenditure jeopardise the MCA expenditures for example?.

The changes are largely based on those made for the SMT upgrade… that is where most of the SMT upgrades came from. Self test and training equipment are now built in, as is fault finding equipment, not to mention cheaper more modern components, and newer stronger materials. The result will be multirole fighterbombers that will become closer to the Mirage 2Ks in performance… still inferior in some areas but more capable in others… and cheaper.

…and a shore based ski-jump is all you need to train STOBAR carrier pilots isnt it?!.

Nahh they are just going find a runway built on the appropriate slope and spray salt water on the Indian pilots as they take off with super soakers by Mattell. 🙄

Could you?. I dont see how?. Who’s reporting that USN or RN operational training is under way with the F-35B or C models?.

Who has stated operational training is underway right now for the Mig-29MKs?

Ah but the ADS is indigenous and, one would hope, they should be able to produce most of their own spares. The Kiev class ship is most definitely not and is not exactly a current production hull is it?.

One assumes after buying it and paying for the refit that the plans for making its parts will be made available to the Indians.

Largely compatible types?. You mean the avionics are nearly the same?. Fantastic – so in your estimation if the IN Sea Kings and ALH’s mount the same type of radar and dipping sonar fit then they a ‘largely compatible’ are they!??.

If the ALH was a very early model Sea King then yes. Of course it is not so your example is rubbish.

PS I like the way you concentrate hard on the benefits of commonality here Garry after studiously ignoring the fact the the ‘new’ Indian carrier fleet of 1 Kiev and 2 ADS’s (as opposed to 3 ADS’s) is anything but long on commonality. More double standards Garry!?

Their fleet is largely compatible with Russian or Soviet systems and vessels. Adding a new fighter that is based on a fighter already in use by the IAF, and also operates helos that are currently already operated by the IN is actually good for commmonality. Further the Gorshkov is not a VSTOL carrier and is therefore operationally more similar to the ADS than the Invincible, which is compatible only with a carrier they have operated but soon to retire. Do you think there are enough SHARs for all the ADS carriers? Or do you think spending rather more money on say Rafales for the ADS, which of course would rely on approval of the transfer of Cat tech plus an invincible purchase would be better… That would replace their obsolete carrier with a not quite so obsolete but very similar carrier and lock them into the purchase of what sort of aircraft for the ADS? Incredibly expensive Rafales… that will likely end up costing more than the carrier they are operational on.

Looks like the British will not be releasing the Invincible any time soon anyway… wouldn’t that be a kick in the crotch… the Gorshkov at sea before the Invincible is released for sale. 🙂

you have A LOT of experience with the type in question, that you are simply glossing over, that means very much simplified operational deployment – cos you’ve been doing it at sea for twenty years and HAVE the seaborne infrastructure to support the type.

no they dont have the experience. they have experience with baseline SHARs with pretty much obsolete capabilities. they wont have any experience regarding FA2. the type is question is not operational with IN and brings an all new set of difficulties and logistics. the SHAR maintanance base for IN was never big either. and it does not make sense to invest in it for short term. especially when you have t take whatever is given to you. the Russians will go produce new engines and radars for IN. IN basically picks what it likes and they make it in accordance. with BAE do the same?

You have none of that with the MiG-29 however much you try to claim that the IAF’s Fulcrum maintenance experience will count for anything!.

and why not? it is not just the Mig29s. commonality with MKI/LCA/Bison jag and Mig27 upgrades is a great deal less headache. many of te core avionics will be Indian. Other russian componanats are not going out of service anytime soon. the entire spare line and TOT will come to India just like MKI. a great deal of value in war times.

Most importantly you have nothing to train your Sea Fulcrum pilots on wheras you have a pool of ready deck-quall’d STOVL pilots and a training program to keep the pool current and adequately manned!.

that applies to al new aircraft dosent it? what do you have to train EF2000 pilots from?

Can you confirm that Wolverine because, last I heard, the Russian carrier is mostly in kit form at the moment and the primary training base for the former Soviet carrier aviation branch isnt actually in Russia? Also, barring a couple of heath-robinsoned prototypes that are a bit long of tooth, there are no Mig-29K’s for your pilots to actually train on at the moment?

Saki i beleive is where the first batch of pilots have started their training. nothing advanced as of now though. will try to get the article.

So no carrier to train on and no aircraft to train with…….sounds like a fairly rudimentry training programme all things considered!?.

you dont start training on a carrier with rookies. they have to play on a mock up. and you dont need Mig29Ks to train with either.

Tailing this off I’d just like to make the comment that I find your opposition to SHAR on the grounds of supportability slightly incredible!.

with IN as the sole operator and no commonality with any other aircraft and no customer specific fit (atleast not to the degree the russians will give) yes its supportibility is very questionable.

This is because the Russians not only operate no other Kiev class vessel, so you will be sole-user of a very maintenance-hungry type – good idea that one!,

so how many Invincible class operators will there be after IN gets it from RN? carriers arte usely of the sole type and always require cash to maintain.

but neither will the Russians be operating the Fulcrum-K and its hard to see anyone else having a requirement for the type.

the K is still a better contender as far as operatinability goes given the spares and technological issues are in IN hands. critical avionics are Indians. the ones that are not come with deep TOT. much like MKI. come to think of it IAF is the sole user of MKI too. so what does that mean? IAF will also be the sole user of LCA or Bison or Mig27UPG. all of these aircraft have Indian input that and mix that no other AF has.
but given that the control is with HAL -K makes good sense.

Again that puts you in the position of being sole-user of a specialist aircraft type that operates in, arguably, the most maintenance-heavy environment you can try and operate fastjets in.

IAF and IN are sole operators for any things. russia still has its Keiv class carrier. so spare parts is still not a very big issue. and we still dont know how maintainance hungry exactly the AG is. last time you claimed this a report came out suggesting the engine compartment will go through a change and so will the boilers.

Double standards at work there Wolverine?

nope. not quite. the two pathways are quite different from each other. one offers better control and capability. the other is heading towards obselance and at best only gives short term solutions which the IN does not want.

Ahh a type that leads to a dead-end right up until the point where a STOVL PAK-FA appears on the horizon eh Garry?!.

thats different. PAK FA will be new with logistical support all the way. SHAR is at the end of its life.

I’d already stated that the more advanced FA2’s for the IN was just for the near-term, to maintain the viability of an aviation capability they already possessed, but that the STOBAR decision had made the point moot.

who buys new CVs and aircraft as a near term solution? just wouldnt make sense. a near term solution is simply to upgrade the existing fleet with viable weaponary.

A type that leads to a dead end. They have chosen to go the short takeoff and arrested landing route.

Ahh a type that leads to a dead-end right up until the point where a STOVL PAK-FA appears on the horizon eh Garry?!. I’d already stated that the more advanced FA2’s for the IN was just for the near-term, to maintain the viability of an aviation capability they already possessed, but that the STOBAR decision had made the point moot.

The improvement to the Mig-29 fleet if they choose to upgrade their aircraft to near Mig-29MK standard (which is basically near Mig-29M2 standard) will both save a lot of money and greatly improve performance.

Fine, but they still have to get maintenance afloat sorted out and may not have planned for the expenditure of re-engining and reworking the avionics of their airforce Fulcrums IF that process is as simple as you portray it?. I have no information on what it would take to bring one of the IAF Fulcrums to -29MK standard but I cant imagine that it would be cheap!. Will such expenditure jeopardise the MCA expenditures for example?.

Yes, of course… an angled deck is impossible to build on land… I guess the facilities at Saki were made by supermen of a long forgotten age.

…and a shore based ski-jump is all you need to train STOBAR carrier pilots isnt it?!. Didnt know the Russians had a short strip shore base that routinely pitches twenty degrees and has huge wind machines to simulate carrier approach conditions. Better hope they do (or they can get Kusnetsov patched up again) or the modest number of Mig-29K’s in the IN is going to suffer a little from attrition. Any news on the Eskem system being fitted to the Fulcrum-K yet?.

Could say the same about the naval F-35.

Could you?. I dont see how?. Who’s reporting that USN or RN operational training is under way with the F-35B or C models?.

No one else will be operating ADS’s either…

Ah but the ADS is indigenous and, one would hope, they should be able to produce most of their own spares. The Kiev class ship is most definitely not and is not exactly a current production hull is it?.

I guess they will be expensive to operate too? The potential for commonality is shown with the use of some of the avionics commonality with the IAF SU-30s. If this cuts both ways then the IAF will be getting lots of upgrades for its Mig-29s. Imagine that… a Navy and an Airforce flying largely compatible types… the US couldn’t do that.

Largely compatible types?. You mean the avionics are nearly the same?. Fantastic – so in your estimation if the IN Sea Kings and ALH’s mount the same type of radar and dipping sonar fit then they a ‘largely compatible’ are they!??.

PS I like the way you concentrate hard on the benefits of commonality here Garry after studiously ignoring the fact the the ‘new’ Indian carrier fleet of 1 Kiev and 2 ADS’s (as opposed to 3 ADS’s) is anything but long on commonality. More double standards Garry!? 😀

cos you’ve been doing it at sea for twenty years and HAVE the seaborne infrastructure to support the type.

A type that leads to a dead end. They have chosen to go the short takeoff and arrested landing route.

The projected Mig-29K would be very effective if available today. That’s the whole point. She won’t be available for another 10 years and the basic Mig design is already 20-30 years old.

Yes, of course… now that the deal is signed the design and equipment of the Mig-29s will be frozen for all time. Over the last 15 years the design hasn’t changed at all has it? BTW the Mig-29K is based upon the Mig-29M which flew in 1988 so if it is flying in Indian colours that kinda makes the design about 20 years old when it becomes operational… can you say the same thing about the F/A-18F? Of course we should judge the aircraft on how it started like you always do with American aircraft eh Scoots? F-16A and all that.

You have none of that with the MiG-29 however much you try to claim that the IAF’s Fulcrum maintenance experience will count for anything!.

The improvement to the Mig-29 fleet if they choose to upgrade their aircraft to near Mig-29MK standard (which is basically near Mig-29M2 standard) will both save a lot of money and greatly improve performance.

Most importantly you have nothing to train your Sea Fulcrum pilots on wheras you have a pool of ready deck-quall’d STOVL pilots and a training program to keep the pool current and adequately manned!.

Yes, of course… an angled deck is impossible to build on land… I guess the facilities at Saki were made by supermen of a long forgotten age.

Also, barring a couple of heath-robinsoned prototypes that are a bit long of tooth, there are no Mig-29K’s for your pilots to actually train on at the moment?

Could say the same about the naval F-35.

Double standards at work there Wolverine?

Nope… double speak from a brit… 🙂

No one else will be operating ADS’s either… I guess they will be expensive to operate too? The potential for commonality is shown with the use of some of the avionics commonality with the IAF SU-30s. If this cuts both ways then the IAF will be getting lots of upgrades for its Mig-29s. Imagine that… a Navy and an Airforce flying largely compatible types… the US couldn’t do that.

The F/A-18C is a great a/c and although the (final standard, 5 MFD) cockpit of the F/A-18E is really impressive, it’s absolutely mind-bogglingly insane to have such an aircraft replace the F-14.

5 MFDs in the Super Hornet? Where are they going to put the 5th? See below for the current SH cockpit.

yes i know what you said. and my whole point was that AG and its Mig29MK airwing infact offers alot more than the FA2 + a 20000ton carrier ever would. we have been over this one in exhaustive detail. it is clear neither me or you is going to change opinions. so lets leave it to that

Concur absolutely! 😀

but its ok to get an aircraft that offers no flexibility and causes spare problems after the key user itself lets go of it and the carrier itself?

Fair comment, but, you have A LOT of experience with the type in question, that you are simply glossing over, that means very much simplified operational deployment – cos you’ve been doing it at sea for twenty years and HAVE the seaborne infrastructure to support the type.

You have none of that with the MiG-29 however much you try to claim that the IAF’s Fulcrum maintenance experience will count for anything!. Most importantly you have nothing to train your Sea Fulcrum pilots on wheras you have a pool of ready deck-quall’d STOVL pilots and a training program to keep the pool current and adequately manned!.

the training for carrier ops has already begun IIRC in russia.

Can you confirm that Wolverine because, last I heard, the Russian carrier is mostly in kit form at the moment and the primary training base for the former Soviet carrier aviation branch isnt actually in Russia? Also, barring a couple of heath-robinsoned prototypes that are a bit long of tooth, there are no Mig-29K’s for your pilots to actually train on at the moment?

So no carrier to train on and no aircraft to train with…….sounds like a fairly rudimentry training programme all things considered!?.

Tailing this off I’d just like to make the comment that I find your opposition to SHAR on the grounds of supportability slightly incredible!. This is because the Russians not only operate no other Kiev class vessel, so you will be sole-user of a very maintenance-hungry type – good idea that one!, but neither will the Russians be operating the Fulcrum-K and its hard to see anyone else having a requirement for the type. Again that puts you in the position of being sole-user of a specialist aircraft type that operates in, arguably, the most maintenance-heavy environment you can try and operate fastjets in. Double standards at work there Wolverine? 😀

How was it a cold war relic?

because its whole concept was defined to protect a BG from hoardes of soveit TU bombers that can approach at high speeds and launch salvos of ASMs.
a cold war concept that dosent apply anymore.
unlike the F15s and 16s that were also designed during the cold war the F14 has no furthur use because it was so specific in what its job was.

It had unmatched range and armament including the most advanced and expensive AAM ever designed.

the most advanced AAM?

It’s AWG-9 was way ahead of it’s time and it also had a good IR/TV sensor system.

the key word tere being was. the AESA on the F18E/F clearly is superior.

It was also very maneuverable despite certain design limitations.

no it wasnt. it manouvers like a pregnant cow. light fighters have little difficulty with F14s unlike F15 which actually happens to be a good dog fighter.

Otherwise, anything that could have been applied to the F/A-18, could have been applied to the F-14, during upgrades.

even the old airframe? the airframe design is quite dated now and it needs to go.

A the Sea Harrier itself would be a good buy.

no it wont be. with the SHARs going out of service with RN itself and no flexibility of various external inputs the IN will be stuck with an already ageing aircraft.
not to mention the added logistical nightmare that all the new radars, AAMs etc will bring. dosent make sense.

They could operate from every carrier available.

and what good does that do? the Mig29K operates from STOBAR carriers. the CVs IN will have in the future.

I only think buying a VSTOL carrier when you future is with STOBAR is senseless. Cause you can´t operate STOBAR planes from a VSTOL carrier.

not the case here.

India can currently upgrade her own Sea Harriers. With say Israeli radar and/or missiles. (i.e. Python, Derby, etc.)

nope. a logistical challenge. would be better if IAF and IN have a common weapon base. helps alot with maintainance.

What she really needs is a platform to fly them from. Which, gets us back to the Invincilble!

so they should buy a carrier just because the SHAR needs a platform to fly from?
normally it works the other way round. the air wing is decided based on the carrier.

Its going to be many many years before the Gorshkov or ADS enter service period!

no its not. another 6 years or so before the AG becomes operational. its air wing will be ready ealier.

Remember that India wants 3 carriers. Further, even when the Gorshkov enters service she will take much time for work ups and training of her Air Wing.

the training for carrier ops has already begun IIRC in russia. three carriers would be two ADS and one AG.

The Invincible can continue to operate and supplement the Gorshkov until 1 or 2 of the ADS carrier enter service.

so you suggest three different class of carriers? this aint the USN you know.
besides the Invincible class are too small for today’s requirements.

Jonesy,

I said that, in my estimation, the Gorshkov offered little usable capability in terms of the missions it could accomplish, as an independant unit, over Invincible with her FA2 airwing.

yes i know what you said. and my whole point was that AG and its Mig29MK airwing infact offers alot more than the FA2 + a 20000ton carrier ever would. we have been over this one in exhaustive detail. it is clear neither me or you is going to change opinions. so lets leave it to that 🙂

Are those reasons sufficient to warrant the expenditure of several hundred million dollars?. No, to be honest, I dont think they are.

but its ok to get an aircraft that offers no flexibility and causes spare problems after the key user itself lets go of it and the carrier itself?

Considering India’s commitment to the Gorshkov and ADS Carriers. I doubt she would have the funds for a Invincible type solution in the intern. To bad really……….That said, I would have forgone Gorshkov and found a short solution until the ADS Carriers entered service. 😎

Seems like I could’ve jumped the gun a bit here and someone in the MoD, though I can barely believe it, has looked objectively at our carrier utilisation and determined that there really is still enough life left in Invincible to merit her retention in the Fleet.

I’ve heard from one, well placed, RN source that Invincible is going to be kept on in reserve status probably as a backstop for HMS Ocean when she refits. The recent defence statement from MoD is still valid in that there will only ever be one carrier fully operational at any one time, but, having two additional flight decks at varying levels of readiness for deployment in reserve would be VERY good news compared to what we were all staring down the barrel of a few weeks ago!.

Wolverine,

both apprently convinced that the SHAR makes sense for IN. it really dosent. it dosent even make sense for RN anymore. there is no short term solution as far as CVs go.
the only short term solution IN has is the Virat. and they will keep it in service until AG and ADS are onboard. i dont see the logic of buying yet another logistical nihtmare for a few years that dosent fit the requirements anymore.

Seeings the damage has already been done with the Gorshkov’s acquisition going through it seems a bit pointless for me to pursue this one much further!. I think I have clarify the position I took to correct what you wrote above though!.

I said that, in my estimation, the Gorshkov offered little usable capability in terms of the missions it could accomplish, as an independant unit, over Invincible with her FA2 airwing. Now, with the IN set on the STOBAR course irrevocably, there is little sense in them acquiring Invincible other than as a method of stretching every last bit of service life possible out of the SHAR infrastructure they already have, as an augmentation of the Gorshkov capability until its airgroup becomes fully operational (some years after the vessel commissions naturally) or ultimately as an ASW carrier/LPH.

Are those reasons sufficient to warrant the expenditure of several hundred million dollars?. No, to be honest, I dont think they are.

The only justification that has significant merit there, IMO, is the blue-water ASW role – a mission the IN have to start taking a great deal more seriously if its thinking of competing with the PLAN over the next couple of decades. For that mission though, as I’ve said before, the JMSDF are the ones setting the pace with their DDH escort proposals and the IN would be well advised to look to following that course rather than looking at a full through-deck CVH.

Essentially then, with the development of events being what they are, SHAR FA2 is now very much less of a viable proposition for the IN. Given my recent track record though that probably means they’ll be purchasing them next week!.

The British Def. Min. (might have been Hoon or the one previous) is on record in the Parliament as saying that they have recieved inquiry, in writing, from the Indian Navy regarding the possible acquisition of the Invincible.

We also know that the IN is looking to get 16 low-hour Seakings.

That much is for certain.

What is not clear is if the IN is interested in the Vinny’s SHARs. Also, it is not clear if the Indian Def. Min. and Fin. Min. will approve and then allocate the necessary funds. It could also be that the proposal has hence been axed by either the British govt. or by the Indians.

India can currently upgrade her own Sea Harriers. With say Israeli radar and/or missiles. (i.e. Python, Derby, etc.) What she really needs is a platform to fly them from. Which, gets us back to the Invincilble! Its going to be many many years before the Gorshkov or ADS enter service period! Remember that India wants 3 carriers. Further, even when the Gorshkov enters service she will take much time for work ups and training of her Air Wing. The Invincible can continue to operate and supplement the Gorshkov until 1 or 2 of the ADS carrier enter service. 😎

Sameer

Buy how many!!….15020!!
Think you meant 15 or 20, or the British government has got some explaining to do.

How many Harriers operate on the Viraat at present?
When are the upgrades planned and are they being implemented?

I dont think that it is such a bad idea to buy 15020 of those Rn Hariers and put a few of them on the Gorshkov, if we can wrk out the maintainance problem of two types on a small carrier, I think we can, the Harriers won’t be bad as a fast reaction aircraft to an immediate threat, especially considering the fact that no AEW platforms will be present to detect targets at very long ranges. The Ka-31s not enough in my opinion.

problem with buying up RN harriers is they differ in their avionics
being far more advanced with blue vixen, better avionics and what not. they wont be cheap. Unless its a large block of 30-40 purchased it doesnt make sense to maintain 10-15 oddities in a already small fleet. Stuff like pegasus engines, extra spares etc could be laid in…they setup a pegasus engine overhaul facility in
Goa last year.

imo they will continue to use the current Sea harriers for a while
and probably just integrate a new ECM kit(borrowed from iaf)
and a new aam (whatever the IAF chooses for Jag/Mig27…most likely python4).

Thanks for the correction about Fincantieri’s role. They will also help with final integration and testing right?

In the penciled drawing, why are the elevators drawn as boxes? Also, the take off runway is not colinear with the centerline (CL) of the ship. Is that correct?

In this image, the takeoff runway is colinear with the CL and same with the pic that I posted before. What dictated the change to the angled takeoff runway? Unless it’s a mistake in the drawing…

Nice picture Victor… May be it is just me, but after seeing the models for RN CVF, all other careers look outdated, including the above (particularly the superstructure), though I do admit that I am not able to be specific. Well, I guess the final iteration for ADS would be better (The ones pictured in BR look good – but not nearly as the RN CVF).

Regards.

Victor
Fiancanteri’s contract does not cover making any design alterations. They have a two part contract that covers: 1) Mechanical Systems Integration and 2) Construction Management.

The closest pic/image to what the ADS’s forzen design looks like is this: