Iran……what do we do?

The interest that was to be gained for the US during WWII, was that Europe would not entirely be brought under the influence of communism. Not from an altruistic attitude, but it was the economic and political interest which drove them. Having friends on the European continent would make it easier for them to keep a watching eye on the developments (economically, technically, politically) by their arch rivals the USSR who also had the ambition to become a world power. A free Europe would also be a great market for American products.

Tillerman.

I’m afraid your US history background needs revision. You’re getting the 40s and 50s confused.

In 1941, when the US enterered the war on Germany…which Germany declared…there was no “Cold War”…the US was not afraid of the USSR exporting communism. Why? A couple of reasons.
1. The US was still pretty isolationist…lets face it, if a lot of Americans weren’t afraid of Hitler taking over Europe, they were even less afraid of Stalin taking it over. The USSR was hardly an industrial giant, its standard of living was unlikely to tempt the people of Europre into a mass conversion to communism.
2.The American administration at the time (FDR) was fairly tolerant of communism. Among the Democratic party elite and writers/artists/ of the period it was basically okay to have a fling with communist idology..if not party membership. If the US were really that afraid of the Soviets, why would they send billions of dollars worth of weapons to Stalin? Sure they were very handy in fighting the Nazis, but I doubt if the US would have given them industrial production licesnses and cooperation if they really feared an “Iron Curtain” in Europe. They were noit a military threat to the uS in 1941.
3.USSR hadn’t begun to threaten “eastern” Europe yet. They would only move into most of those counties as an occupation force after the defeat of Germany.
4. Roosevelt thought he cold “handle” Stalin. Churchill was far more distrustful of the USSR than FDR. Check out what happened at the Yalta conference…sick, addled old FDR was outclassed by Stalin.
5. American fear or the USSR and “cold war” didn’t really get underway until the late 40s…after making the Eastern european countries “satellites”…and making B-29 copies…and threatening to make the bomb (with the help of pro-Soviet spies).

But of course you know more about it…I only majored in post-WWII American history at university…and studied it again in graduate school. :rolleyes:

I guess there was never any economic, social or political benefit to the people in the western european nations which were spared 50 years of communist dictatorship. The only ones to benefit were the Americans following their crass commercial goals. :rolleyes:

Sauron

Like the allies had when they liberated your country from the Nazi’s?
I don’t think the US or UK made any money on the deal…or judging by your attitude much gratitude either. 😀

The interest that was to be gained for the US during WWII, was that Europe would not entirely be brought under the influence of communism. Not from an altruistic attitude, but it was the economic and political interest which drove them. Having friends on the European continent would make it easier for them to keep a watching eye on the developments (economically, technically, politically) by their arch rivals the USSR who also had the ambition to become a world power. A free Europe would also be a great market for American products.

I know there’s no such thing as a free lunch and I dont mind that, but don’t do as if you’re the worlds greatest benefactor. Just mention things as they really are.

And gratitude? You really want me to bow my head for any US person I see? I’m aware that we were better off under US influence than under USSR influence, but I also know the true reason we were liberated by US, Canadian, British and Polish troops. And it was not philantropic.

Tillerman.

Three thousand dead civilians gives the US a right to be a tad sensitive about this. Maybe you missed the pictures on TV of people leaping to their deaths to avoid being burned to death.

I didn’t miss that, and most of those that jumped only did so after seeing the first tower collapse, so really they were avoiding being crushed rather than burned. I guess therefore that watching US bombers kill fellow Serbs entitles all Serbs to attack merica? How about those Iraqis? Boy, this list is pretty long… be quicker to list who you haven’t bombed… is there anyone on that list? Specially when you include accidents/c0ckups and the like.

Let’s face it, if anybody wished NZ ill, you’d have to depend on the strength of your allies to protect you.

And who would that be? Who threatens us, and who are our allies? The US is not our ally… we are no longer part of Anzus. We get used as a base for their antarctic trips and we are part of echelon, but that doesn’t buy us any favours. Quite frankly a close relationship with the US would probably be the only reason anyone would want to attack us.

I never impuned their competence.

Whatever…

There will be no name calling in here. Keep it civil, or the thread gets locked, and the offenders a week ban.

This is the only warning

When the President of a country that has been and continues to be the main supporter of terror throughout the M-E and elsewhere, comments that Israel should be wiped off the map, we should pay attention. Chances are he means what he says. This is not the first time that a mad man has made threats which were ignored and then carried them out. We should fear this idiot even if others are pulling his strings. We should fear them even more. They will look you in the eye while you are spouting your silly anti-U.S. nonsense and nodding your head and they will still cut it off.

IMO it is stupidity to let knee-jerk anti-Americanism or dislike for Bush’s foreign policies, retard your judgement about the wisdom of Iran having nuclear weapons given the current leadership.

By the way, the issue is about nuclear weapons, not about nuclear energy. Direct offers have been made to Iran (and North Korea) about supporting peaceful programs. Nor is it about the NPT and who has signed and who has not. It’s about the best method of dealng with each individual nation that has them, regardless of how they got them.

Sauron

One nut job group called Al quada hijacks a few planes and flys them into a few buildings in the US and all of a sudden the US is target numero uno.

Three thousand dead civilians gives the US a right to be a tad sensitive about this. Maybe you missed the pictures on TV of people leaping to their deaths to avoid being burned to death.

No. Of course. Saying an organisation is incompetant and ineffectual does not in any way reflect on the organisation itself. ***edited – Frank***

There you go again, imagining words.
All I said is that the RNZAF lacked a strong combat element…true since the retirement of your A-4s. P-3s and C-130s won’t do much..if the RNZAF has recently bought fighter, bomber or attack aircraft..I’ll gladly withdrawl my statement. Let’s face it, if anybody wished NZ ill, you’d have to depend on the strength of your allies to protect you.
I never impuned their competence.
Effectiveness, perhaps…if you know history, you should know despite the best intentions, and bravery, you can’t fight a war or defend youself without appropriate weapons. Ask the poor Commonwealth aircrews that had to face Luftwaffe fighters in their Battles.

*** edited – Frank***

(This is where I quoted and took exception to some name calling by GarryB. It has been removed by the moderator.)

PS. does this mean I won’t be getting a surplus RNZAF Bell 47?

….But only if there is an economic or military interest :rolleyes: .

Tillerman.

Like the allies had when they liberated your country from the Nazi’s?
I don’t think the US or UK made any money on the deal…or judging by your attitude much gratitude either. 😀

There’s no such thing as a free lunch, Tillerman. 😉

Americans will be there to save you by protecting your shores or flying relief supplies in by C-17.[/B]

….But only if there is an economic or military interest :rolleyes: .

Tillerman.

it might cost a city or two but the US will get to do what it has always wanted…

Chill dude.
What’s the matter sombody P*ss in your beer? 😀

As usual, spoken with the attitude only someone living far away from a likely target can afford.

BTW: My earlier comments that you took offense to (imagine that!!!) about the essential lack of a RNZAF combat element was not directed at them.
I’m sure they’re fine chaps. In fact, I’ve generously offered to relieve them of one of the Bell 47s when they’re retired and take it on the US airshow circuit (a nice goodwill gesture, don’t you think?).
Rather, it was meant to demonstrate that NZ can afford the luxury of not having a combat air force is due to the fact they know if anything bad happens, the Aussies and “war mongering, imperialist, capitalist,evil, etc.,etc.” Americans will be there to save you by protecting your shores or flying relief supplies in by C-17.

When the US or anyone comes up with proof that Iran has a nuclear weapons program then perhaps there is something to discuss. The Iranians were complying with the international community till the US started kicking up a fuss and stating they have a nuclear weapons program. If they want nuclear weapons the nuclear reactors they are developing are the wrong type to do it quickly.

And the idea that the Iranians would hand over a powerful weapon like a nuke to an organisation whether they have complete control over them or not is a joke. If they nuke Israel or anyone it would take mere hours to determine where the nuke was made. How long before retaliation… they might as well stick it on the end of a rocket and fire it themselves and post emails to everyone in the world that they launched the missile.
Isreal has nukes because it stated the Arab neighbours were working on WMD and it needed a way to retaliate. So who cares if a Persian neighbour gets nukes… it might cost a city or two but the US will get to do what it has always wanted… get out that little black book with all the countries it hates in it and fire some ICBMs at the top three or four names there. They will have 30 minutes or so to make up some bogus story about how they were all an axis of evil together and there was evidence to support they all did it.

Are you all so blind as to truly ignore what’s going on here? Iran is up to no good with that nuclear program, and if this issue is ignored then I have a feeling somebody somewhere along the line (or God forbid many people) will pay for it with their lives. I’m not suggesting military action against Iran right now, and to be honest I don’t know what the right action should be. Ignoring it is NOT the answer though….

Who’s ignoring the problem?

The Iranians made it clear their nuclear program is for civilian purposes, the Iranian people support their country’s nuclear program and they have the right to have it. No one, not even the American superpower or the EU have the right to deny the Iranians’ right to nuclear power.

This thread is starting to disgust me.

Then why to start it at the first place? You must know for now that not all of us are blind to US propaganda…

Again what comes to Iran issuing nukes to terrorist, Its just BS launched to scare peolpe in order to get them support actiaons against Iran…why would Iran give nukes to terrorist? It’s basicly the same if they would launch them by themselves? Also terrorist organisations are usually quite fuzzy and amy suddenly turn against you, so why to risk it?

And what comes to those talks about Israel…It’s pretty much the same when Bush comes to some foreing deployment unit of US army and gives a speech where he talks about axel of evil and how god have given him assigment to go crusade against big bad terrorist…it’s a boosting up of interional status and hegemony, Iran’s president just uses different phrases which will ensure the “mobs” support back home…

Seems like some propaganda has gotten into your head because if you truly think that there is no threat posed by Iran’s acquisition of nuclear weapons then I don’t know what else to say to you because you’re quite possibly the most blind person I’ve ever come across

Funny, becouse thats exactly what I’m thinking of you… :diablo: You often sound pretty much the stereotypic american redneck who have no clue about real world and blindly just repeat BS of rightwing nutcases currently in charge of Washington…no offence

Nations have learning from their experience of from those of around in different times that might is right. So any nation which wants to maintain its way of living would like to get its hands on powerful weapons so that they wont face threats of “WITH US OR AGAINST US”. I dont understand the concept of unpopular Administration of Iran with the people. I dont see Administration killing people who oppose them. I dont see people in the streats protesting against the direction the President is taking Iran into. Well if all that is there then y do we want to help the people out? People are raised within the nation and sometimes have same idealogy only different methods to acheive it.
You remove a german from administration it would be replaced by another german. You remove a Iranian from power it would be replaced by another Iranian, You replace US president and he would be replaced by another pro israeli president. These are facts of life. Get use to it.

Bush has decided that democracies who refuse to sign the NPT and secretly build, test and maintain nuclear weapons will be exempt from the laws. (India and our recent great deal for us giving away nuke tech for mangoes…) :rolleyes: ..Nations we do not entirely trust, like Pakistan, get no help. Nations we detest, like Iran, face sanctions and preventive wars. Including the bit where Iran, which signed the NPT and has allowed IAEA inspections of all known nuclear facilities… gets treated badly. So again our, moronic, insurgent, terrorist enabling U.S. State Department, along with our moronic administration, has gone for yet another stupid play. India says there can be inspections, but not of any of the weapons facilities. :rolleyes: So based on that inconsistentcy, we expect Iran to take this whole process seriously, without falling out of their chairs laughing?

More interesting is the kind and quality of hornets nest we could kick over by doing something dumb like bombing Iran. Of course hawks in Israel will push for a bombing too if they can and our moron hawks will agree with them. It’s good for Israel so it must be a good idea. Funny how we talked with the Soviet Union and the Chicoms in the cold war and lots and lots of nukes were involved in that period, yet refuse to talk to Iran on anything that makes sense. I think you would find, or any REAL professional diplomat would find, that Iran and U.S. have a lot of common goals if they were to use their head. Iran doesn’t have much use for taliban and AQ. But no, we will keep rattling sabres. Real, real dumb. Oil at $200 a barrel will be real fun.

Our idiodic congress is whinning about how we got in to the Iraq war, yet they were too lazy to counter an incompetent administration. Thing is they have even more work to do now. They SHOULD be talking about whether dumb dumb has any authority to push us in to yet another war, in this case Iran, …. without any kind of declaration of war. Our schools don’t teach much about the constitution. Plenty about any other topic, but not the important ones. We have an ineffective administration and an ineffective congress, sporting a comical lack of useful diplomacy… and they have oversight on the most powerful weapons systems on the planet. Pretty hard to paint a happy face on that.

This thread is starting to disgust me.

Some of you are so hell bent on continually bad-mouthing the United States that you seem to be ignoring the fact that BOTH the United States and Europe don’t want Iran to have nukes.

What I meant by “in Iran’s best interest” is that if they get nuclear weapons the world is going to keep a much closer eye on them and if they try anything, they could pay for it with millions of lives….

Furthermore, people are also assuming Iran won’t use the weapons against their neighbors. For the most part I agree……but if any of you bothered to read any of my posts you’d see the thing I’m worried about (and I’m not the only one) is the potential for Iran to give nuclear weapons to terrorist organizations. Saddam was never able to give out nukes because he didn’t have a nuclear arsenal……thank God for the Osriak strike back in ’81……Thank you Israel.

Iran has not only stated they intend to wipe Israel and anyone who supports them off the map, but they are rapidly developing a nuclear program and stalling to make a decision in incentives…THAT WOULD HELP THEIR COUNTRY…..until August 22?

Are you all so blind as to truly ignore what’s going on here? Iran is up to no good with that nuclear program, and if this issue is ignored then I have a feeling somebody somewhere along the line (or God forbid many people) will pay for it with their lives. I’m not suggesting military action against Iran right now, and to be honest I don’t know what the right action should be. Ignoring it is NOT the answer though….

For once I’m calling on the members of this forum to ignore their hatred for the United States, and focus on what could potentially be a problem, not only for the Middle East, but for anyone else that might become a target of Iranian sponsored teorrism.

And you have some unreleased audio/video data that proof this? Or some other evidence? Comon, whos being black and white in here? Stating US propaganda as a fact is just ridicilous, you see Iran’s aren’t idiots, nor lunatics. Yeas Iran have said this and that, but to belive they actually going to do it shows, like the above statement that you really lack the ability to see trough propagandain general…

Well there’s that whole….”let’s wipe Israel off the face of the map” speech from Iran’s idiotic president that rather caught my attention…..

I never said the Iranians are stupid. They know damn well what they are doing. Their leader is crazy though, and there’s no way of predicting what he will do. Seems like some propaganda has gotten into your head because if you truly think that there is no threat posed by Iran’s acquisition of nuclear weapons then I don’t know what else to say to you because you’re quite possibly the most blind person I’ve ever come across….

Neither would I entrust the Palestinians with nuclear arms, although I symphathize with them for the way they are intimidated by the Israeli’s.

So let me get this straight. You don’t want Palestinians to have nuclear weapons, yet earlier you stated this:

When you have a gun of your own, you cannot forbid someone else to have his own gun also.

Seems like you’re being hypocritical; if America came out and stated that Palestinians shouldn’t have nuclear arms, I bet your opinion on that front would change in about half a second.

Nuke weapons are dangerous. I hope US as a symbole of freedom and a devoloped country be the first to distroy its nuke arsenal so that the rest of nuke countries do the same.

Well, that would be nice. Here’s a tip: It can’t happen, and it won’t happen. That wishful thinking is not something that is possible in reality.

Why?

Because there will always be evil people.

If the US and Russia destroyed their nukes, then any other nation WITH nukes would dictate world policy. The US and Russia and the rest of the world would be at their mercy.

Besides, military technology is one of our best methods of advancement. When we’re invaded by aliens, or about to be hit by an asteroid, we’ll all be damn glad for nukes!

(and delight in the irony wil be shared by all humanity.)

Your answer seems overly hypocritical; either that, or you purposely dodged the question.

Wat do you want to hear from me? That I support the nitwit who is president of Iran now? I don’t! Neither would I entrust the Palestinians with nuclear arms, although I symphathize with them for the way they are intimidated by the Israeli’s. Diplomacy based on spreading fear just doesn’t work, it just polarizes the controversy.

The main problem is sketched by Grey Area:

There’s an international market in fissionable material and the knowledge of how to build a nuclear device is out there in the public domain, for pity’s sake.
The nuclear genie is well and truly out of the bottle and it is both over-simplistic and dishonest to pretend that it can be forced back inside again.

That’s the real problem. None of the administrations which posess nukes will be prepared to give them up.

Tillerman.