Iraq; a question of oil.

RE: Clash of civilization?

jeb,

im glad and releaved that at least some americans can still be so understanding and open to suggestions, and not just blinded by anger like ur leaders.

i think pretty much everyone agrees with u that al-Q doesnt give a toss abt the palastinians, and are just using them to ster up hatred and resentment towards america. but u have to admit that the resson al-Q is so strong is because of the palastinian stiuation. would they have been able to do 9/11 if there werent ppl desperate and angery enough to be willing to die just to hurt the US?

the ’70 virgin’ thing may be ture in some cases, but the ppl that fly the planes on 9/11 were well educated and succeseful ppl with everything to live for. i dont think they would have been willing to die for a fairy tale.

as for the irish example, well im sorry if there was any confusion. i did not mean to compair the IRA with al-Q. im merely saying that the only effective weapon against terrists who turely beleive what they’re doing is right, is to talk and listen to them, and not to crush them, because u cant crush them.

these ‘terrists’ are not in it for money or power, they are not mersanaries that will jump ship when things get tough, they’re just normal ppl that are so desperate that they just cant stay silent any more. killing them will only create marters, and in turn stimulate more ppl to jion in their case.

al-Q is no such orginisation, but the only reason they are so strong is because their footsoilders are such ppl.

the only way to fully destroy al-Q is to take away its footsoilders, via sorting out the palastinian dispute openly and fairly.

how much harm do u think bin laddern can do if he no longer have ppl willing to die for him? do u think he would be willing to fly a plane into a building himself?

RE: Clash of civilization?

President Aznar? LOL, he already installed himself as the head of state? This is how Hitler started. }>

RE: Clash of civilization?

You have to add to the duo Aznar-Berlusconi, our president Aznar. A complete disgrace.

RE: Clash of civilization?

Jeb ,

I fully agree that Al quaida don’t give a sh…. to the palestinians.
However those terrorism organisation grew up on the misery and frustration in this part of the world. US and many other western countries share the responsability of this situation.

Fighting the terrorism is fighting the poverty and underdevelopment.
The actual politics in middle east is a dead end. Many other disasters are pending … unfortunately.

Clash of civilization?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-09-02 AT 06:58 AM (GMT)]Well some comments, Jeb.

I also think that Al Quada is there not only to kill innocent people, but also destroy the principles of the modern democracy, wheter it be western or not, doesn’t really matter. I don’t believe in a “clash of civilizations”, I do believe in bad leaders and policies.

But your comments on western civilization reaching new heights. Well, there I don’t agree with you. I think the state of the “European”-democracy (which the US also is) is pretty bad these days, limitations on freedom of expression (press, criticism is seen as anti-patriotism), the leaders who don’t give a damn anymore about what their people think (Blair and Iraq). If you look at the leaders of today: Bush, Berlusconi, Blair (they all start with B’s :7) they are a true shame to their nations constitutions and principles. They don’t seem to give a damn about it anymore. Berlusconi “Il Duce” takes the lead in these kinds of policies. No doubt the past few months have been one of the most undemocratic since the end of world war II, I’d like to refer to the article in the Economist a couple of weeks ago on limitations in the European Union, including freedom of speech. Many leaders are using 9/11 as way to strenghten their position, take more power from the other branches (justice, lawmakers). So the current state of the democracy is not just the fault of Al Quada, we – the people – are also responsible for what our leaders have done. …

“This is the world we live in
And these are the names we’re given
Stand up and let’s start showing
Just where our lives are going to.”

RE: gee, when did this turn into another anti-europe topic

I am glad you are not justifying it.

I also agree with you that some Americans don’t have a grasp of what is happening in the world (… just like some people in other places… but please don’t generalized. In a way 9/11 was a wake up call and I just hope it will turn out for the good. Nevertheless, Al-Qaeda represents another world view. Do you think they really care about the Palestinians? This world view is bound to clash with the principles of the USA’s founding fathers that made America strong… which are the same principles that made western civilization in general reach new heights (which I believe is slowly being forgotten which makes the USA weaker than it seems and which makes Europe weaker than it should be). Since the USA is the “biggest” fish in the pond for now, its always noticed… and will always be the target for resentment… justified or not.

Again, I reiterate that 9/11 cannot be justified… I think its an insult to the Irish to compare them to Al Qaeda… and its hard to compete with the promise of 70 virgins in the after life.

Anyway, it has happened… there will repercussions… good or bad, it depends on where you stand… time will tell.

Jeb

RE: gee, when did this turn into another anti-europe topic

Well, do you guys know the song “Land of confusion” (Genesis). Says it about all.

RE: gee, when did this turn into another anti-europe topic

Fully agree. I have always wondered if the americans in general terms wonder “why the rest of the world hate us so much?”. Of course they didn´t deserve it. It was a barbaric attack against all the world since the victims were from different nationalities. I was however really surprised, appart from the neccesary prosecution of the Alqaeda criminals, at their not asking responsabilities to their goverment. CIA is supposed to the finest inteligence organization in the world which is really costly for the americans. And they couldn´t avoid it. I would be very crossed if I were american and my hate would go in different ways. Four planes hijacked at the same time, and no responsabilities claimed to Airports Security, only external focus. The Israeli question is quite intrigueing. Why America is so loyal to Irsael despite his embarrasing the US all the time. The jewish lobby is important in the US, but in terms of money, I find more influential the arab world right now.

RE: gee, when did this turn into another anti-europe topic

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-09-02 AT 05:32 PM (GMT)]Plawolf , you read my mind.
You’re absolutely right. The point is not to say that america deserved it: sure they didn’t. Or innocent people didn’r deserve it. Was it a coward attack :sure it was.

The point is to step back and think a bit about it: WHY did all of this happend? What in the foreign american politics during the 4 past decades generated a such amount of hate.

Nothing in the world happend for nothing. We had in the 80’s and 90’s many bombing in Paris (80’s from Iran 90’s from Algeria) and many people (the smart ones) started to wonder WHY?

All the evil axis theory is just bullshit to justify a war impossible to justify.

America is paying the price for his unconditionnal support to Israel which is only due to the fact that the Jewish community is very powerful in New York and the rest of the country.

This blind support drove palestian to a dead end and now they have nothing to lose. The only way to extaerminate the “evil” is to fix for good the palestinian conflict. This solution will never come from war but from talks.

RE: gee, when did this turn into another anti-europe topic

im not trying to, or even wish to justify it, cos as u said, some things are just absolutely wrong.

what i meant is that there are reasons why what happened happened.

dont forget that it was ur CIA that created bin ladern and co. how many russian did al-Q kill? im not just talking abt the soilders, how many russian civilians were killed by terrist bombs ? how many palistimans were killed by israeli tanks and bombs and bullets? how many of them were ‘combatants’ and how many were civilians?

i hate to say it, but it was america’s actions that partly cause 9/11. im not saying that america deserved it, im just saying that ur lack of understanding and even compation in ur forgen policies fueled the hatred that grow so great, that ppl were willing to kill themselves just to hurt u. dont that at least make u think a little?

bin lardern and co may be manipulating desperate ppl to achive their goals, but the desperation and anger is very real, and alot of it is caused by america or its allies.

history has shown time and time again that vilance cannot stop terrism. u dont have to look far to find an example of how governments should deal with terrism, just take a look at ur best freind britain’s example.

if the british had not listerned and delt with the grevences of the irish ppl, bombs would probably still be going off all over england and N iriland. but instead of trying to kill everyone that had grevences, they stopped shooting and started talking.

i can understand that america can never forget or forgive what bin laddern did, that is natural. but what u can do is take away the ppl that r willing to die for bin laddern. and i dont mean kill them.

RE: gee, when did this turn into another anti-europe topic

>and please dont use the ‘we got attacked first, and r just
>defending ourselves’ excuse. if u had been fair in the
>isreali v palistinian dispute and other matter, none of that
>would have happened. would it cost american lives to tell
>sharon to just pack it in and talk with the palastinian
>intead of at them?

Plawolf,

Do you really believe this (if I may say bull)?… I hope not. Was this attack justifiable? I can’t change how you think or what you believe in, but remember there are things that are just absolutely wrong.

You might also want to remind yourself who did it and what they stand for?

Jeb

RE: gee, when did this turn into another anti-europe topic

“please, spare me this propaganda crap. did u ever stop to realise that its not just us chinese that are opposed to some of ur ‘crusades’. its pretty much the whole world – britain.”

Yeah plawolf is right, everybody hates the propaganda; the world is divided in two camps : the americans and the non-americans. }>;

RE: gee, when did this turn into another anti-europe topic

Don’t worry too much, Plawolf. It appears Cyrus discovered the joke he is after French paratroopers rescued a bunch of Americans in Ivory Coast. And even still, his attempts to compensate his lack of self-esteem with national pride is highly amusing }>

RE: gee, when did this turn into another anti-europe topic

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-09-02 AT 08:10 PM (GMT)]let me think, oh yes, it was right after cyruss jioned in. i have noticed that whenever u jion into a topic, the discution goes completely off topic. in the end, everything turns into anti-euro, anti-us anti chinese etc.

please, if ur bored go watch TV; if u want to satisfy ur ego, go jion the airforce; if u just want a fight, go into a black naborhood and start shouting racest remarks. }> but please stop wasting our time.

“Third, the Chinese just hate the fact that America is powerful enough to do what they can only dream of at the moment…so they denounce everything we do just to make themselves feel better.”

please, spare me this propaganda crap. did u ever stop to realise that its not just us chinese that are opposed to some of ur ‘crusades’. its pretty much the whole world – britain.

newsflash, what is good for the US is not always whats good for most of the world.

before, we can take it because at least america showed a little bit of repect and understanding, but now u have gotten so full of urselves that u think its a crime against humanity to oppose the US in any way what so ever.

being a democracy, u would think that americans would understand that the few cannot impose their wishes on the many. this has been shown countless times throughout history. country gets strong, country gets proud, country treats rest like dirt, rest of the world rises up, strong country gets not so strong.

the lessons of history are written in blood, but america just chooses to ignors it as they think that cos they’re so strong, those rules dont apply to them. maybe they’re right, but even if they are, countless ppl, both american and non-american will die to prove it. wouldnt it be alot easier and less costly to just treat the rest of the world like equal human being, which we are, and live together in reletive peace?

and please dont use the ‘we got attacked first, and r just defending ourselves’ excuse. if u had been fair in the isreali v palistinian dispute and other matter, none of that would have happened. would it cost american lives to tell sharon to just pack it in and talk with the palastinian intead of at them?

on the matter of iraq, do u seriously think the whole world would be against removing saddam? what everyone is uneasy abt is the thought that america can choose to fight and effectively conquore another country for no justifiable reason other then that will be good for the US.

saddam is a power mad butthole and few would be unhappy to see him go, there is no denying that, but he has done, and can do nothing against the west or any other country for that matter.

if america can squeeze attacking iraq under the ‘anti-terririst’ brolly, then whats to stop GW from pointing his finger at ukrain and saying, gee, ur nukes arent safe in ur hands, let our inspectors go in and ‘secure’ them or else. once we get into that kind of a viciouse circle, then it will be exccedingly difficult to pull out of it without WWlll starting. is that what u want? cos thats what ur likely to get if america continuse on this dangerous path.

RE: US plans for Iraq.

for that America kicked your ass twice…pretty lame i’ll say }>

RE: US plans for Iraq.

>[i, but
>now is nothing more than a flock of castrated sheep.

Sheep are lovely animals. Sheep are already “females”.I rather prefer them than wolves with an excess of testosterone. Make the countryside a peaceful place to live at.

RE: US plans for Iraq.

ok in that sense that was a really bad coment to make

im just think this cyrus guy is taking the piss at the monet

sorry if i upset anyone, im no cold insesitive git

rabie :9

RE: US plans for Iraq.

You know Rabie, after 9/11 you Brits can no longer claim exclusive rights on that sort of thing …

—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: US plans for Iraq.

who was the only nation to burn down america’s capital

nuff said IMHO

rabie :9

RE: US plans for Iraq.

>What do you mean? Britain constantly supports America. We
>are, in fact, your own personal aircraft carrier anchored
>just off the coast of Europe. Britsh troops served alongside
>Americans in all the countries you mentioned. You even
>requested British support in Afghanistan specifically for
>their specialist skills. Who patrols the no-fly zones in
>Iraq with America?

True, I stand corrected with regards to the UK. It was the rest of Europe I was referring to…and if you would have read any of my earlier posts you would have realized that I omit the UK from the rest of that feeble excuse for a continent.

>And as for those few thousand poorly equipped targets it
>seems more and more that that is exactly what they are
>becoming to America. How many British troops did you manage
>to kill in the Gulf War? How about your New Zealand and
>Canadian allies? Your own Government is now charging your
>own Air Force personnel with negligence. Is it the fault of
>the targets or those doing the targetting?

I’ve addressed this issue before. Fratracide happens in war. It is unfortunate, but it happens. We have killed our own troops as well. What I was referring to was the “blue helmet” police of the UN. They are so handcuffed by what they can and cannot do that their presence is nothing but a joke to those who are supposed to obey them.

>Have a walk round any British town and read the names on the
>war memorials and see just how many were willing to
>sacrifice their lives to make a difference in the world.

Hmmmm…was that sacrifice or was that pure desperation for your own survival? What America did on your behalf, sending its sons and daughters to help defend you, that was true SACRIFICE.

>Where was America when Britain was fighting in Malaya,
>Borneo, Aden, Kenya? Don’t commend Britain in one post for
>her resilience in WWII and then accuse her of not playing
>her part elsewhere.

Yawn…this “where was America when…” debate is getting old. The bottom line is: America showed up and kicked azz when the time came and that’s what you people should remember!!!!