"Iraq Red Caps 'deprived of ammo'"

I converted onto the L85A1 back in 1987, when I was stationed in Cyprus. Having fired the L85A2 the weapon, as it stands today after all the mods, is what is should have been back when it entered service. Today the A2 is a solid weapon that has been re-manufactured to alleviate the problems of the A1. I was mightily impressed by the workmanship of the re-manufactured parts and the feel and performance when firing. All the RAF Regiment / Royal Signals instructors I have met absolutely love the A2 and agree that it is the weapon that it should have been when the design entered service.

Nermal, SF does use the weapon. For example when they have to blend in:

SAS operated in Bosnia under the cover of UKLO (United Kingdom Liaison Officers), which was under the direct command of General Mike Rose. As Cameron Spence stated “It didn’t take a rocket scientist, of course, to conclude that the UKLO was not a regular unit.” To help them blend in they were kitted out with SA-80 (L85A1), rather than their more obvious Gucci type weapons. Cameron Spence recounts in his book “All Necessary Measures”
that one of his SAS mates used his L85A1, fitted with a KITE site, to scare the life out of a Croat sniper who regularly took pot shots at UN vehicles. Using their UN Land Rover as bait the sniper couldn’t resist and loosed a round off which hit the road in front of the vehicle. Spence’s mate, who had earlier worked himself into a piece of dead ground, put a round into the brickwork immediately behind the sniper. Spence wrote “The sniper got to his feet in a mad panic and started to leg it to safety. As he ran past the next shell hole, Keith, still concealed in his dead ground, sent another round thumping into the brickwork behind him. The sniper reacted as if he’d been stung by a Hornet; stumbling, falling, picking himself up and running to the next shelter. As he headed blindly past on last piece of exposed wall, Keith
anticipated his trajectory and sent a final round crashing into the ceiling, bringing a cascade of plaster on our man as he barreled past.”

Photographs of SAS (UKLO) in Bosnia with L85A1s are also in Nick
Richardson’s book “No Escape Zone”. Nick Richardson was the Royal Navy Sea Harrier FRS.1 pilot who was shot down on the 16 April 1994 by a Bosnian-Serb man portable SAM while attempting to bomb two T-55s. Richardson fell into Bosnian-Muslim hands and was linked up with the SAS team in Gorazde. Richardson was issued with an L85A1 and together they escaped and evaded through Bosnian-Serb lines and were picked up by a French Special Forces Puma. Photographs in the book show them with their L85A1s about to be evacuated from the landing site and after reaching safety in Sarajevo.

TJ

Originally posted by plawolf
the AK might be fun to spray bullets with, but i think most soilders would be more confortable going to war using a weapon that they at least know well, and are used to.

You might well say better the devil you know – but if all your experience says that you cannot trust your life with this weapon in battle then you are not going to be a happy bunny.
With the AK47 the chances are that there were loads of them available – so if one plays up toss it back on the pile and try another one. Couple that with the fact that there would bound to be a huge spares supply which could be kept topped up from any number of black market sources.
As Nermal says the SA80s faults were reported by soldiers on many exercises – and still left to fester. It has been apparently upgraded to solve the problems but still is not favoured by the common soldiery, who complain that nothing much has changed.

Flood.

of course the AK47 is a ruggide and reliable weapons as it has proven time and again, and no one is disputing that fact.

however, just because the AK is ruggid it dont mean that the weapon is indestructible. it still needs cleaning and replairing if it is to stay in peak condition over a long period of time. and i think that is sth that has espcaped most non-professional users of the type.

one of the AK’s strong points is that like most russian weapons, it can still work even when damaged. but it can also be one of it weakness, as the user may not be aware that the weapon has been damaged and continue to use it cause further degration of the weapon.

ur average day iraqi or afgan AK owner would be quite content to have a weapon that can shoot, but i’d imagain that the standards of the RM and RA would be higher. as u pointed out, the SA80 was designed to be a precision weapon, so its users are trained and used to such weapons, but i strongly doubt that ur average AK thats been knocking around for almost a decade would be very good in the accuracy department.

the AK might be fun to spray bullets with, but i think most soilders would be more confortable going to war using a weapon that they at least know well, and are used to.

The AK47 was apparently designed to be used with as little sevicing that it could get away with by your average everyday revolutionary – whereas the SA80 suffers from being designed by scientists in a clean atmosphere laboratory!
I have been told that the AK47 could be extracted from the bottom of a swamp and fired, whereas the SA80 would need to be cleaned if it was accidentally dropped in a shallow puddle or (and the chap who told me this might not have been as unbiased as perhaps he should have been) if operated in fog or mist.
The AK47 is fine to spray bullets from the hip – but the SA80 was designed to be used like the FN SLR it replaced from the shoulder. You should be able to replace the magazine on the SA80 with it balanced and aimed from your shoulder – not something to do with your AK47.
The Royal Marines hate the SA80 – I can believe that they would, in Iraq, re-equipe themselves with AK47s at the drop of a hat. I never did get to photograph them using the gun on an artic live fire exercise because there were so many in the unit down – and that was over the space of 4 days.
The SBS, like the SAS, won’t use the SA80; any marine who chose one as his personal weapon would be, quote, “returned to his original unit for being mentally unsound”, end quote, according to a training sergeant.
Just because a gun has been around for years doesn’t make it any less usable – look at the Colt.45.

Next question? – Nermal

yeah, but u also ‘conviniently’ avoided some suggestions that purhaps troops only took to AK47s because of ammo shortages or simply because they liked it better (lighter purpahps, also, dont forget that the bullpump design of the SA80 means that the weapon effectively cant be fired from the hip while on the move, considerations need to be given for that).

also, the SA80’s faults were ways over exaggerated, and most soilders dont encounter jamming with their rifles.

besides, even though the AK47s are more ruggid, most have been knocking around for years if not decades, probably without the propper care and regular cleaning needed to keep the weapons in tip top conditions, so based on that, i would not agree that the average ‘AK47 might be more serviceable and better repected than the SA80.’

so, no, it doesnt. :p

It was stated that some troops were using AK47s – and I put something to the affect that the AK47 might be more serviceable and better repected than the SA80.
Then you asked what was the point in bringing up the SA80s faults, I repeated the orginal statement and declared ‘that takes care of that’ and you said ‘no it doesn’t’ so I said ‘yes it does’…

So – Yes it does.

Flood.

oh no it doesnt… can we change the subject already? this is starting to turn into a really dunbified verson of ‘getting the last word’.:(

Oh yes it does… (Behind you!;))

Flood.

oh not it doesnt…:p

Oh yes it does…:rolleyes:

Flood.

no it doesnt.

Originally posted by seahawk
AFAIK some allied troops were using captured AK-47 and ammo during the actual fighting of OIF.

And that takes care of that!:rolleyes:

Flood.

true, but then what was the point in bringing up the SA80s faults in the first place?

But this wouldn’t have helped those MPs coz they are still dead…

Flood.

can probably find more ammo then u’re issued as well.:rolleyes:

but seriously, i think that the SA80’s faults have been put through an electrone microscape, and the only reason i dont like it much is because its a little on the heavy side and not that convenient to hull around because of its bulky design.

Originally posted by plawolf
ok, and?

And maybe using an AK47 would be a more sensible option than hoping that your issue SA80 didn’t jam because you didn’t dismantle it in a clean room with the extractor fans going on full?

Flood.

ok, and?

The British Armys SA80 does not have a good reputation.
The MoD say it is fixed. The soldiers still don’t like it.
Go figure.

Flood.

say what?:confused:

Have to say who would care as long as it did what it was supposed to. And does the SA80? Possibly. But if you only remember the bad press about it then what does it matter…

Flood.