Iraqi Furies

Loads of ZPU-2 / ZPU-4 AA guns came back, and appeared outside a lot of RAF Sqns after the war. There was also a number of Saddam statues purloined…..I think there was a political fear that too many “war trophies” would give the impression we had “conquered” rather than “liberated” so the practice was cracked down on quite quickly.

I heard from a friend about a Saddam Rolls Royce allegedly flown back

Thanks matey – always wondered what happened! ATB TT

TexanTomcat,
My Squadron got hold of one, properly dismantled it with a crane (one of the engineers had spent some time with WoGB) and packed it in an ISO container for shipment back to the UK. Ironically, I suggested we just underslung the aircraft out to the ship we were coming back on (whose namesake had operated Sea Furies in Korea) but it was considered too high profile and too risky. The container was the “safe” option. Then an edict came out about “war trophies” being seen as “looting” and we were refused permission to put the container on a ship or in an aircraft to transport it back…..AFAIK, I’m afraid, it didn’t come back to the UK and, I think, was last seen in Basra….

I imagine given that their acquisition maybe involved a degree of private enterprise, in a manner not necessarily involving official sanction or approval, they, and the ‘owners’ are keeping a pretty low profile.

It/they have a value, but as soon as you go public questions will start, with a high probability that a higher authority will intervene.

Perhaps they will be salted away into the warbird rebuilding industry as ‘spares’.

I’m sure that one ended up being zapped by an RAF Squadron and was airlifted back to the UK in a Herc without any ‘official’ endorsement – it then mysteriously disappeared as people were crying ‘war booty’.

On a separate note, what happened to the ex Indian ME109 which ended up with Airframe Assemblies – am sure its been mentioned but cant remember!?

TT

I saw the Baghdad Air Museum in 06 and there was a Fury in a circular static park with a load of other types. The photos are on this forum somewhere, you’ll have to wade through the threads using the search function.

I was in Iraq in 03 and saw them. PM if you want further detail…..

Originally posted by Flood

Pardon me for asking the bleedin’ obvious but which of our museum facilities, which of our warbird entrepreneurs, or even which of you with your bright ideas is going to dig deep in to their usually empty pocket to restore a Fury just so that it can be given back at a later date?

Flood

Actually, I was rather thinking that the government would pay for the restoration. Silly me.

As for the medics in Basra, that’s strangely close to home at the moment as one of my future cousins in law, who is an Army Doctor, left very recently to go to Basra.

Strange coincidence!!

Willow

I really hope the US Forces leave these Furies alone, so they can be restored in future. In Somalia the grunts pretty much trashed all the aircraft in Mogadishu – loads of MiGs were defaced with grafitti along the lines of ‘Hi Mom!”:mad:

If there is a threat to their safety in Iraq well maybe we could hide them in the same place that all the weapons of mass destruction and indeed Saddam are – nobody will find them then !

LOL :p

Has anyone thought of rescuing the Treasure of Nimrod for “safekeeping” as well….. 😀

Willow sez:- “One could always be returned, fully restored, later on when the situation was better.”

Pardon me for asking the bleedin’ obvious but which of our museum facilities, which of our warbird entrepreneurs, or even which of you with your bright ideas is going to dig deep in to their usually empty pocket to restore a Fury just so that it can be given back at a later date?

Fine, the Fury does have a very good British connection but they were sold over 50 years ago! They have been part of another air force and, whether good or bad, that is where they should stay, at least until someone in authority – and here I mean Iraqi authority – decides what should be done with them. And since there is no real Iraqi government at the moment I would hazard that decisions like that will be the last thing on their minds. Granted, that will not help the airframes now but at least it will not look like the western world is trying to pillage their history – as well as their oil – from them.
Even if the Furies were to come here what in the world makes you think that they would stay here? We don’t have a great history with keeping Furies, usually flying them for a year or two and then selling them to (bites tongue, hard, to swallow his poisonous bile) American gentlemen to lop the wings off (:mad: hsss!) and hang big engines off the front (:mad: boo!). If the Iraqis wanted to make money from the Furies then they are probably going to cut out the middleman anyway.
Hopefully the berk who cut the tail off will have been apprehended by his military police – although the chances are they won’t have a clue about what it is and may even just dump it like they apparently do with Iraqi helmets – but I am informed very little is being tolerated in the way of plunder so I just hope it isn’t disposed of over the side of a ship just like my grandfather and his mates slung their hoards of Japanese Samurai swords overboard in 1946 (he apparently had 4 and his squad had similar numbers each, but I am glad that the pickled head also went overboard! Or maybe that was just a story to scare us young lads?).
Leave then where they are; they are safe enough (unless the US forces suspect them of being weapons of mass destruction, of course) and maybe, one day, they will form a museum for us to view in the future.
It is a crying shame but…

Flood

Willow – Don’t you think that offering aid in return for the Furies is a bit rich !! Compare the cost of the smart bombs and cruise missiles we have sent to Iraq compared to how much medical aid they are getting in Basra as a basis of cost per capita and you will find a big difference.
If there is a threat to their safety in Iraq well maybe we could hide them in the same place that all the weapons of mass destruction and indeed Saddam are – nobody will find them then !

I would still have thought that money for medical care etc was a more pressing issue than aviation heritage at the moment.

I have already agreed that the aeoplanes ARE Iraqi property. It is up to them in the end. It would just be a shame to see the aeroplanes scrapped. At least if they were sold now they would be safe. One could always be returned, fully restored, later on when the situation was better.

Willow

David is quite correct – these aircraft are the property of the Iraqi people – they are part of that country’s national aviation heritage and should be respectfully treated as such.

These machines (Furies)are the property of the Iraqi people. They should be dismantled and put into storage containers until such a time that they can restore at least one example for display in the national museum. As for the Mig’s well I don’t think they would illustrate any feats of air combat conducted between the coalition
and the Iraqi’s . I am sure if the IWM wanted a Foxbat they could get an airworthy machine flown in from one of the former Soviet states.

Simply removing them would count as theft because, unlike previous conflicts, the whole reason for Gulf War2 was to ‘free’ Iraq, not conquer or repel it.

However, if the Furies value was put back into rebuilding Iraq, I’m sure there would be no argument as no doubt the locals would much rather have the money than an old aeroplane. The same is true of the Twin Pioneer seen at the main airport. What happened to that?

Or maybe the US forces can blew that up as well!!

DOUGHNUT has a good point about Migs though. Why not? There aren’t too many Mig25 or 31 in the West.

Willow

physik – thanks for the news, sounds like quite a find! One two seater and what sounds like the remains of at least four singles, possibly more. I’d hope Flypast do publish your story and photos, sounds like a hell of a scoop.

I know from some guys on the ground that it’s still a very busy time for them out there, and so I guess that saving these aircraft is very much a lower priority, but I do hope that their security can be assured, be it on site or through removal to safer areas.

I saw ’em 🙂

I got back from Iraq a couple of months ago and saw a number of these “Baghdad” Furies at Shaibah Airfield (an ex-RAF station just west of Basrah). Hence I can give a few more details, but there may have been further developments since I last saw them …

There is a two-seater Fury acting as a gate guardian some way inside the base. This was in pretty good nick when we first arrived (as far as gate guardians go at least), but sadly some idiots broke into the canopies and cut off the horizontal stabiliser after a few weeks 🙁 Otherwise it is in very good nick from the outside and the engine looks intact, however, all of the flight controls and dials are missing from inside the cockpits.

There are also a numer of single-seater Fury wrecks in more remote parts of the base and I think I can probably lay claim to having discovered these 🙂 I got close to a pair that are missing their engines and a few bits of wing / ailerons, but are still easily recognisable. In the distance I could see a few more wrecks that looked in similar condition and so all together I’m pretty sure you could combine them into at least one decent airframe suitable for static display.

Thinking they were old Sea Furies to begin with, I emailed the Curator of the Fleet Air Arm Museum, who was very helpful but did not think they could get involved with them for a couple of reasons. Firstly, he explained that they were not really anything to do with the FAA since they were never carrier-based planes (although I notice the wings still seem to have folding mechanisms) and because they were sold directly to Iraq rather than being ex-British. Secondly, he told me that removing Iraqi military equipment was going to be very difficult this time around because the situation was different from that of Kuwait and the Falklands where the enemy equipment removed was from an invading force who had since been evicted (although I know of at least one Iraqi tank that is currently “seeking asylum” in the UK). He thought that ideally they should remain in Iraq for restoration by an Iraqi museum … however I think they will have other matters on their minds for the forseeable future 🙁

I did take a number of photos and I have sent these to Ken Ellis to see if he wants to publish any in FlyPast … if not then I’ll post them myself either on this forum or a website of my own.

Personally, I’d still love to see them brought back to Blighty and given a proper home somewhere. They are magnificent despite their current condition and situation !

Spoils of war. Many exhibits on show in the UK museums could be considered ‘stolen’. Maybe the IWM should be on the look out for examples of Iraqi Migs with which to illustrate the first Gulf war.

DOUGHNUT