Is peace necessairy?

All depends on Labor’s ability to recover to what it once was, though the odds of that happening seem to be rather low at the moment, and also on what happens inside Likud, i.e. will Netanyahu once again take over the party or will Sharon remain the leader, or perhaps someone else.

And of course the next question is whether or not Shinui would be able to form a coalition, if it would become the largest party. There are many difficulties there as well, as Shinui and religious parties don’t go along too well…

PS: Skythe, check your mail.

Originally posted by Geforce
Am I correct stating that Shinui is a centre-right secular liberal party? On the Palestinian issue, are they more related to Labour or Likud? What are the chances that they would deliver the next PM after Sharon. Or will Bibi return.

Shinui’s agenda is predominantly domestic, with a strong emphasis on religious and economic matters. Their positions on the Palestinian issue are rather obscure. They seem to sense where the wind is blowing and follow that course – like the vast majority of the Israeli public, they refuse to back down in the face of Palestinian terrorism, but they do understand that the real solution to the conflict is two states living side by side and all that requires of Israel. As such, they are considered leftists by the Sharon government, supporting his peace initiatives against the right wing elements, and they also have popular support in their efforts to divert funding from settlements to more important issues.

Am I correct stating that Shinui is a centre-right secular liberal party? On the Palestinian issue, are they more related to Labour or Likud? What are the chances that they would deliver the next PM after Sharon. Or will Bibi return.

Yep, a problem that indeed should be addressed and in a sense is addressed by Shinui. Let’s just wait and see what comes out of thay….

JJ:
A somewhat less-known problem is some of the Ultra Orthodox. They do not work and get pensions, but they often have too many children to support on them, and the Israelis don’t want them sitting in yeshiva all day, but also having a job. The taxes are taken from the pensions. They are also exempted from the army.

Yeah, i know that quote:
Asterix en de Lauwerkrans van Caesar
(or Le Lauriers de César, or Asterix and the Laurel Wreath…)

“But what about the animals? Those poor, starved animals…”

I used to read the JPost online, but now you need a log-in so I can’t use it no more.

Sure you can, all you have to do is register. There’s no spam or so involved, so it’s risk free ;). I’d really advise you to do it, reading just Ha’aretz will give you a too narrow picture (seriously, especially some of the op-eds are quite, well, radical. Ze’ev Schiff’s though are very good and give a good insight into the situation).

The Jerusalem Report also has some good commentary (I especially like Ehud Ya’ari, but that’s kind of an Israeli thing I guess. Or maybe it’s just me…)

BTW, Carthago was already destroyed long time ago, Jonathan 🙂 150 BC somewhere 🙂

Oh really? Must look for some other external enemy then :D. Seriously though, the quote is mainly symbolic, but I guess you understand the message.

I used to read the JPost online, but now you need a log-in so I can’t use it no more.
BTW, Carthago was already destroyed long time ago, Jonathan 🙂 150 BC somewhere 🙂

And Arthur, the terror attacks in the eighties are still not solved here. Some voices here say it was an attempt to destabilise Belgium and form an ultra rightwing gov’t.

Geforce, your anecdote illustrates quite well that the European perception of Israel is quite detached from what’s actually going on. In spite of what most (Western) media report, life in Israel simply goes on. Sure, people are more careful, bags are searched, each terror alert creates a traffic jam etc. However, people still want to live and go out and enjoy themselves (some perhaps even more so because of the situation, as you never know when your last hour has come). In fact, I find life in Israel to be much more intense than life in The Netherlands.

As for Israel being such a rich country in war: Israelis hardly know a life without war or terror around the corner, yet that hasn’t stoped Israel from developing itself from the dirt-poor, mostly agricultural country it was in 1948 to the high-tech nation it is today, with all the problems it entails. Israel developed itself from almost Third World standards to nearly First World standards in 50 years, even though it was in an almost constant state of war and had to fund an ever-growing and military. True, it had some outside assistance, I’ll give you that . But then, almost each counrty on this planet had after WWII, yet harldy any developed itself the way Israel did.

Starjet, can you name me some of the domestic problems Israel is working on?

I can: high unemployment (10%), educational problems, environmental problems to name a few. Just read Ha’aretz and the Jerusalem Post for a few weeks (including the op-eds) and you’ll get the idea.

edit after Arthur’s post:
Actually, the current Likud government (at least finance minister Netanyahu) blames the economic problems largely on all previous Israeli (socialist) governments, form Ben Gurion on :rolleyes:. In any case, the current Intifadah at least for some part is to blame for the current economic problems (falling tourism, Israel being increasingly isolated), though previous governments have all added their fair share (except for Rabin’s I guess, as at least he pulled money out of the territories to improve education and all the previously notoriously bad Israeli roads, as well as health care). The situation is slowly improving though, and I guess that in a few years Israel’s economy will be fully recovered and modernized.

Too bad ****uyama doesn’t have a six-year old son for ghostwriter. His thinking would certainly grow out of the simplistic level he seems stuck at. Kaplan did write some good stuff, but he seems to have lost it somewhere. Guess he doesn’t base his theories on literature anymore (his best work is written along the lines of Céline).

As for Israel: although i’m of course only an superficial distant observer, it does seem to me that their security issues hijack the politicial attention away from true domestic problems. I could be wrong of course, but i’m under the impression that Israeli citizens cast their vote more based on their thoughts on how to deal with the external threat (…should have kept that threat extern… OOMPH! Ooops, sorry, got carried away, apologies for the about-to-erupt-flamewar) than on true domestic issues: the economy, social inequality, taxes, education, the lot. I have no doubt the Israeli government adresses domestic issues. But i doubt any member of the Israeli government will get an ulcer about traffic issues, but the Palestinian matter on the other hand… Don’t forget that for a martial government (like Israel’s, the US’ or Liberia’s) it’s quite easy to blame domestic problems on ‘the enemy’: “Of course we would spend more money on healthcare/infrastructure/xxx, but unfortunately we need all the money to counter the enemy!” (Really smart martial governments also cut taxes, which makes this excuse even stronger :rolleyes: ).

As for Israeli citizens still going out: i can’t see why not. Most people want to have a life regardless, and the Palestinian suicide squads aren’t killing nearly as many Israelis as the local traffic does. Benjamin, i’m sure your parents visited the Delhaize supermarkets in the mid-1980s as well?

I was reading an article in a magazine about life in Israel and was supprised people still go to pubs, pop-concerts, mass-events, beaches, eventhough their country is at state of war (at least that’s how we think of it). For me, it’s difficult to imagine such a rich country like Israel being in a war. I mean, if you turn on the TV at night, are you still able to watch “friends” or “jackass” instead of the news reporting the latest suicide attacks?
Starjet, can you name me some of the domestic problems Israel is working on? Just want to compare their actions to a nation during peacetime.

And Arthur, you know it’s Fukuyama without C :D. His book “the end of history and the last man” was very interresting though, and not at all comparable to the works of lets say Robert Kagan, Huntington or Robert G Kaplan. Kaplan’s last book (warrior ethos) was written by his 6-year old son I assume.

Geforce:

I was born in Israel, and lived in Israel until age 7. I visit once a year. There are some periods of peace. I lived there between 1981 and ’88, when Israel was in the Lebanon conflict. That was harsh. But now, as long as you stay away from certain areas, and you are vigilant, you’ll be fine.
Israelis do have to go into the army when they are 18: men for 3 years, women 2, with a few exceptions. I didn’t go, as I had changed my citizenship to Swiss. Soldiers are everything from guards to military court administration workers. It is very strict.
One can live a normal life in Israel. Actually, Arthur, Israel is working on some domestic problems. I can name two or three.
Also, a country like Israel (democracy, martial, many enemies) is better prepared for war than let’s say, Finland.

SJET

A commonly accepted image of an ‘enemy’ (=a real or percieved threat to the group/club/state/culture) sure is a nice way to denounce internal problems. Better still, it makes people accept that they themselves as individuals are expendable for the wellbeing/security of the whole group. And since the leadershipyour group is also it’s external representation, you will happily support him despite your own possible differences with it – the latter of which is of particular interest in democratic societies, BTW.

I always thought ‘1984’ by Orwell sums it up quite nicely. Perpetual war is an ideal excuse for the existance of a state and the rejection of individual persons.

Also, a brilliant scholar (cough, cough!) like ****uyama also gives evidence that peaceful states like Iceland, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, New Zealand or Malaysia are far better off than nice martial states like the Yugoslavia/Serbia/Croatia of the 1990s, Congo, Lybia or Israel? An external enemy is a great way to distract the population from domestic problems, nothing more. If your society is domestically well-organised and the people are reasonably happy and secure, there is no need for war.

OK, I should say living in western-Europe. My mistake

Geforce,

“Living in Europe today, it’s difficult to imagine being threatened by your neighbouring countries.”

You are giving people a wrong impression of Europe. Greece and Turkey are in Europe, the Balkans are in Europe, the Baltic States still get nervous about Russia and Georgia recently made it its forgeign policy aim to get into the EU… These countries can all easily imagine being threatened by their neighbours.

Good question Garry. I think for a healty society peace will always be the best option, but if you want to expand your power and wealth, war could be a useful tool.

Do you mean is it necessary for a healthy society, or is it a good time to expand influences and grow as a power?

Or are you asking if peace is a desirable situation or is it a stagnation or symptom of a decaying society or a society that is doomed to fade away.