Is "The War Against Terror" already lost?

have we lost the war??

the most direct answer to that is NO!

How do we define a victory in this war? Can we realisticly eradicate terrorism in 5 years,10 years or even in our lifetimes? A simple answer is no. Terrorism has deep roots which are fed by poverty,western double standards (or which appear to be double standards) etc..Total eradicaiton of terrorism or eradication of terrorism as we know it wont take place until these fundamental problems are solved. However a good question is “ARE WE WINNING THIS WAR??

My answer to this would be yes

I say so because we are so much better protected now against these radicals and extremists then we were say pre-911 or even before that..we have recoganized the threat,recoganized and identified the enemy,identified the source of the problem,ID the weakness’s of the enemy,ID some or most of the tactics of the enemy and more importantly have made an attempt to recoganize Our shortcommings that the enemy exploits. A vast majority of the world has come together and seems to have a consenses regarding the joint effort that would be required to fight this WOT (exclude iraq for the moment cuz that is debatable)..However the bottom line and a fundamental fact of this war is that the terrorists only need to get lucky once whereas we need to be lucky all the time ..We must realize that we wont be lucky all the time because we are not perfect..

Id the enemy is not enough we must analyze what actions we have taken to counter the enemy..There is a massive global hunt for terrorists across the globe from the bronx to the mountains of afganistan to the islands of indonasia…can this hunt be done better..definately yes..There is also a crackdown on extremist or sympathetic govts. which might harbor them..we can also move that at a faster pace..We are fighting them,hunting them,in a lot of cases we are winning..and in a lot of cases we are far from that.. A TOTAL VICTORY EVERY TIME IS IMPOSIBLE AND UNREALISTIC

Ironic that the place where so many Londoners sought refuge during WW2 should become a place of death and destruction last week.

Let us also not forget the other 150+ people who got on trains recently and did not survive the journey as a result of a tragic accident rather than a deliberate action
(3 train crash in Pakistan)

Something that is very important to remember is the fact that London has seen much worse than the terrorist attack last week (I am not trying to take anything away from the horrors the world witnessed that day). I am simply trying to point out that London was, during WWII, the subject of constant bombing raids flown by the German Luftwaffe. At the time, Londoners picked up the pieces and percevered, standing defiantly in the face of great adversity. I have no doubt in my mind that today’s generation of Londoners will do the same. This alone is a great victory against terrorism!

While I don’t think that we could ever ‘win’ a war on terror in that we could bring an end to terrorism – that would be impossible, I do think we have ‘won’ in that we will not let ourselves be beaten, and when the going gets horrendous, we still get on with it. Some people mock the so called British ‘stiff-upper lip’ spirit, but I think it’s something as a nation (our multi-cultural nation) we do well. Mind you, as I typed that last sentence I remembered that last week’s bombing suspects were all British citizens, they didn’t show much ‘British spirit’, did they? I guess I will just have to think of them as British in name, but not true Brits to the core.

Aargh! Waffling again! Sorry…

I completely agree with you Ashley, I feel proud to be British today and i am very proud of my fellow Londoners for how they are dealing with this situation.
I see these “people” who killed so many innocents as the bad apples of our fine country, They have chose to Bring War and Terror to our public and our public has not backed down or ran away, The stiff upper lip still exists and in our modern multi-cultural society it seems stronger than ever, Together we are stronger than these “people” can even dream.
I work on the public transport and confess i am a little scared at work but i am not put off, I see so many people not only workers still travelling to London and i feel in my heart if they can travel and defy the evil that did this then i can be there to serve them.

I don’t really think the war on terror will ever end as such but its not a war we are losing when we are united, I honestly feel they can not beat us and as with the IRA we got almost used to the danger and lived with it, Praying we won’t be caught in a attack but also deciding life goes on. We are a stubborn nation anyway and more over we are a nation that does not let people dictate what we do in our lives easily.

We will carry on with our lives and be stronger for it, 7/7/2005 will always be in our memories and histories but so will the fact we stood united against the Evil, Britain is stronger for this and that makes me feel proud not beaten or in fear.

I have a couple of Muslim colleagues (one of whom I had lunch with today) who have been feeling the ‘heat’ of of the backlash.
They feel scared twice, once because they often commute into London and twice because they’re taking ‘stick’ from the ignorant.

Perhaps I’m naive but seems to me to be a nasty situation to be in.

As I said previously–Oh for a peaceful World.

Andy

Andy,

not sure there is a cure – muslim leaders must be worried that their religion is being used as justification for such acts but seem powerless to stop fanatics from doing so.
Fortunatley most westerners realise that it is a small number of people who are hell bent on causing terror and who are willing to die for it.

Grey Area,

am aware of Abu Hamza currently being held in jail but no doubt there are others like him willing to continue spreading hate messages both here and abroad.

Steve,

for racist read realist – we all know that the vast majority of UK and worldwide muslims condemn and deplored these acts, yet the fact remains that they were muslims rather than any other religion.

And your ‘cure’ for this is???

Grey Area,

am aware of Abu Hamza currently being held in jail but no doubt there are others like him willing to continue spreading hate messages both here and abroad.

Steve,

for racist read realist – we all know that the vast majority of UK and worldwide muslims condemn and deplored these acts, yet the fact remains that they were muslims rather than any other religion.

Paul… your opinions are valuable, but please express them without indulging in racial/religious/cultural stereotyping.

Thanks

Grey Area
Moderator

Just a point of information.

Far from being at liberty to preach anything, Abu Hamza is currently on remand in Belmarsh Prison.

He faces 10 charges alleging he solicited people at meetings to murder non-Muslims, including Jews.

A further four charges allege he used “threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with the intention of stirring up racial hatred”.

GA

Its a tricky one.

Members of my family are of Indian origin, and its likely that they will come up against a racist minority who will seek to apportion blame on them for such atrocity.

I am not racist, but I am perhaps humanist, and cannot support messages of hate against any religion or creed.

Bruce

Paul, I am in full agreement with that viewpoint.

However, usually when anybody publicly states it, they are immediately branded ‘a racist’ by certain sectors of society.

One wonders whether last week’s events might change that?

We are a very tolerant society in general – we let almost anybody in, feed them, house them, educate them and some repay us by spreading messages of hate against the west – sorry but enough is enough. We must introduce far stricter controls on who we let into the UK – the fanatics who incite this hatred are not invisible and deport those already here. Abu Hamza is one such fanatic who, because of our tolerance and freedoms is allowed to preach a message inciting a tiny minority to try and destroy those freedoms.

Bruce,
I actually haven’t been dwelling on anything much–I’ve been too busy.
However I think a little fear isn’t such a bad thing, I’m not and never will be ready to give into these people but I would prefer a peaceful World.
Later
A.

Amen to that!

Bruce

A number of interesting perspectives on a ghastly act.

Andy – I went through Kings Cross on the night of the fire back in the eighties. By coincidence, so did my wife, who I didnt know at the time. I was 2 minutes too late for the St Pancras train, so walked down the platform to Thameslink, or I would have been on the wooden escalator at around the right time. Chance – Life is made of such things. One must not dwell on them too much – that way madness lies.

I agree completely. I also went through Kings Cross that evening, although I went up the wooden escalator about ten to fifteen minutes before the fire. Absolutely oblivious to what would happen. Sat on the train home to Cambridgeshire in blissful ignorance, sauntered home, and got through the front door to find my parents in tears. Having seen the news, and knowing that I should have been home by now, they were convinced I was dead. It was before mobile phones so they had no way of contacting me. I was late because I’d been record shopping of all things. But they didn’t know that. You know, every time I go through Kings Cross, even eighteen years on, I can still smell and taste the smoke.

Andy, as Bruce says, you can’t let it eat you up. Memories of the lucky escape will stay with you for ever, and in the back of your mind you’ll always wonder what would have happened ‘if…’. But at the same time, we must give thanks for the fact that ‘it wasn’t me’, and then get on and live life to its fullest. Which is easy to say, but sometimes rather less easy to do.

I’ve just taken a break in typing this to observe the two minutes silence. Partly to show defiance towards those who would seek to destroy our way of life, partly to show respect for those who died last week, and more personally for me, to give thanks for the fact that Andy, who I am proud to call a friend, arrived home safely last Thursday.

Andy – I went through Kings Cross on the night of the fire back in the eighties. By coincidence, so did my wife, who I didnt know at the time. I was 2 minutes too late for the St Pancras train, so walked down the platform to Thameslink, or I would have been on the wooden escalator at around the right time. Chance – Life is made of such things. One must not dwell on them too much – that way madness lies.

Bruce,
I actually haven’t been dwelling on anything much–I’ve been too busy.
However I think a little fear isn’t such a bad thing, I’m not and never will be ready to give into these people but I would prefer a peaceful World.
Later
A.

A number of interesting perspectives on a ghastly act.

Andy – I went through Kings Cross on the night of the fire back in the eighties. By coincidence, so did my wife, who I didnt know at the time. I was 2 minutes too late for the St Pancras train, so walked down the platform to Thameslink, or I would have been on the wooden escalator at around the right time. Chance – Life is made of such things. One must not dwell on them too much – that way madness lies.

My brother uses Thameslink all the time, and you would have passed him going the other way. He was a little way behind, so missed the bombings, but I was still glad to hear him on the end of the phone a week ago. One thing you hear about a lot of the victims is that they were there by chance, not by design. Its not something one can never prepare for.

A number of things strike me about this act, but chief amongst them is that I fear it could have been so much worse. Four people caused so much death and destruction – what if it had been eight, ten, twelve people? It seems interesting that these ‘cells’ are always based around small numbers of people, probably to avoid detection. I also wonder in such cases why these people fail to cover their tracks in the way they do. If the police had not been able to recover any personal documents, how much more difficult would their task have been? Explosives left in houses and cars – it makes no sense to me. For terrorism to be truly effective, one cannot know ones enemy. That we do, or have clues presented to us already makes us stronger.

We are a tolerant society, perhaps more than any other. I think it time however that we do stamp down on religous hatred, perpetrated by any religion or mindset. Damien is right though – we do need to be aware of the reasons we are subject to terror attacks, whether from the Irish, Al Quaeda or whoever. I dont think I can blame our current government for the problem – the reasons are far too deep rooted, and I am not sure any other government would have handled matters any differently.

Am I afraid? – see this website; an excellent platform for a united reply to these people:

http://www.werenotafraid.com/

Bruce

Beside the fact that killing solves nothing but creates martyrs, you are mistaken:

I apologise, I was still under the obviously mistaken impression that the death penalty still stood for treason.

Killing solves nothing but creates martyrs. And keeping the perpetrators in prison does what? As the Israeli’s found out it gives the prisoners comrades a reason to hijack, kidnap and murder. Baader-Meinhoff ring any bells? Red Brigade? If those guilty of their crimes had been executed, then further crimes in an attempt to gain the prisoners freedom may not have occurred.

Regards,

kev35

With my fiancee presently in London visiting relatives, I was incredibly worried about her welfare when I learned of the attacks last Thursday morning. However, I was relieved when I heard her voice on the other end of the line to let me know she was safe. She was freaked out and I must admit that I was as well. we here in Canada never have encountered any such atrocities but I must say that many of us were angered by the attacks London suffered.
As a former member of the armed forces, I wouldn’t say that we have lost the war but more that we have lost a few battles. This is a war that will last for decades to come as no matter how many of them you kill, there will always be another to take their place. This is a cause that will take patience on the part of us all. Our government have to unite rather than spend most of the time blaming each other for the short comings of this conflict. The more they will work as a single entity, the more they are likely to see positive results. Until this happens, we unfortunately will continue to suffer such acts from extremists.

Pilothgt makes a valid point regarding human rights legislation which I think may need to be looked at.

I watched the Monday lunchtime ‘Politics Show’ on BBC2. Several Moslem politicians and leaders were interviewed, all condemned Thursdays events but……

I was interested to find out that the mastermind behind the Paris Metro bombings in 1995 (who is a Morrocan) lives in North London as a free man.
This despite the fact that he has been convicted ‘in absentia’ in his homeland, yet the UK will not extradite him to Morroco because,
1) we have no existing extradition treaty with Morroco and
2) he ‘might face a death penatly’.

The leader of the miltary group that killed Anwar Sadat, who was the prime mover and on the verge of great transfomation in the Middle East (at least between Israel and Eygpt) also lives in the UK.
Also convicted he affords the same luxury.

I forget the guys name but the hook handed one eyed fellow who held radical meetings in the street once he was oused from the local Mosque, and was subsiquently arrested following evidence that possibly linked him to 9/11. Although not at liberty he sits safely in Bellmarsh prison because the UK will not extradite him to the US because he ‘might’ be subject to a death sentence ‘if’ convicted.

Apparently their human rights might be violated. 😮

The presenter listed nearly a dozen similar people/situations, all now resident and ‘safe’ in the UK. Where is the common sense ?
If you commit such deeds or incite others to do so then you should forfiet any rights you may have been entitiled to as a ‘human’.

Attacks like this can be cosidered to be nothing less than treason and I believe the death penalty is still applicable to those convicted of treason. It should be applied to anyone convicted of conspiring to commit acts of terrorism.

Beside the fact that killing solves nothing but creates martyrs, you are mistaken:

1998. Death penalty abolished for crimes committed under military jurisdiction.

20th May 1998. On a free vote during a debate on the Human Rights Bill, MPs decided by 294 to 136, a 158 majority, to adopt provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights outlawing capital punishment for murder except “in times of war or imminent threat of war”. The Bill incorporates the European Convention on Human Rights into British law.

July 31st 1998. The Criminal Justice Bill of this year removed High treason and piracy with violence as capital crimes, thus effectively ending capital punishment.

27th January 1999. The Home Secretary (Jack Straw) formally signed the 6th protocol of the European Convention of Human Rights in Strasbourg, on behalf of the British government formally abolishing the death penalty in the UK. It had been still theoretically available for treason and piracy up to 1998 but it was extremely unlikely that even if anyone had been convicted of these crimes over the preceding 30 years that they would have actually been executed. Successive Home Secretaries had always reprieved persons sentenced to death in the Channel Islands and Isle of Man where the death sentence for murder could still be passed and the Royal Prerogative was observed.