Is the Warbird Community in General to Elitist

Hi All,

So I think we all can agree that both sides of the pond are different to how and what is done to make people welcome,so what do we do in the UK part to make it more open and here in the States how do we get more Youthg involved.

I have a few ideas that seem to be working in other fields, as some of you know I like to do digs and when we do this we try to bring in the kids to get their hands dirty you might say. The Teachers like it because they can use it for a Historical leason, so maybe we should approach this from an educational stand point where we get Teachers involved and see where it leads us.

As for the UK problem since I don’t live their and only understand the problem from what I read here and some conversations with varoius memebers via Telp. I can’t make a honest comment. I can sujest that maybe the varoius Historical/Warbird owners/groups look into holding more open house maybe have adverts in local papers saying would you like to get invloved with your local airport, just a thought.

I think we all agree that we do need to get the youth involved.

Cheers
RER

Although I don’t think that ‘warbird’ owners and museums are elitest there is a big acess airfield problem in the UK. Im a spotter and have been for 20 odd years, I can not afford to be any more than groundbound. There are very few airfields nowadays that are friendly and open, weather they have historic aircraft of not. Good examples are Breighton and Popham. Bad examples North weald and White Waltham. I know the CAA have brought out the high viz jackett thing etc, but some places go out of their way to be unfriendly. Yes I know some spotters are a pain but we are always hearing about airfields( like N Weald at the moment) being threatened .But how would you feel as a local resident if you were not welcome let alone as an enthuiast.
Yet I find the US the situation is the opposite. I remember a few years ago when I first visited California, Torrance actually. I knew there was a field there but guessed it was just spam cans when I spied two T28’s so pulled up the car by the fence. Only to have some body pull up beside me and ask what I was doing? In the UK I would expect to be told to **off, but I was invited into his hanger to see his P51 too! There just doesn’t seem to be this openess in the UK?

Just like Avro’s Finest, my interest in aeroplanes started as a result of living quite near to Rolls-Royce’s airfield at Hucknall. As a young lad I spen very many hours gazing longingly at the many and varied types of aircraft that operated in and out of that airfield. Memories such as Lincoln flying test rigs, Lightning, Phantom, Belevdere, Vulcan, Meteor, Dove, Heron & HS 125 communication aircraft, the Wessex hovering for hours over a purpose-built salt-water pond, and subsequently crashing at Watnall brickworks, where me & my mate Derek badgered the solitary Policeman to let us go and have a look at the ‘dead’ helicopter are still strong in my memory. Not to mention the happy times watching the Spitfire XIV G-ALGT flying around! I also saw the first flight of the RB-211 powered VC10 G-AXLR. The annual Whit Monday Airshows at Hucknall were always eagerly awaited. Saved up for ages to make the 5/- entrance fee! Happy Days! These things nutured my love of aviation that has lasted years. I now help out on the B-17, and I have always found the ‘warbird’ community to be generally a very open and welcoming bunch, but like in any walk of life, you get those that are not so open & welcoming, but that’s life….some members of the public can also behave like they own the aeroplane and just won’t told..(pictures the clown who was seen to be smoking under the wing of the B-17 and thought I was being petty when I pointed out the risks!..I won that argument!) Anyway, lets enjoy what we have got and the fact that some folks have the money & determination to keep them in front of us!
Regards to all,
Keith

Anyone is welcome to touch my aircraft at a show – I have a small container of polish and loads of soft rag with which they can ‘touch it’

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You forgot to add ‘at a price’

call for girl from Northamptonshire :dev2:

SO maybe the operators in the US are a bit further ahead than us and maybe in the UK we will follow this trend and get away from the” DONT TOUCH “Mentality .

Anyone is welcome to touch my aircraft at a show – I have a small container of polish and loads of soft rag with which they can ‘touch it’

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

When’s the party 🙂

About six weeks ago!

Elitism

Thanks AF for a great recollection . This brought memories of my first exposure to aircraft when I saw a DC 3 taxi in up close at Manchester Airport – I thought it was awesome , my Dad exposed me to aircraft and it has been a great journey and experience .

Re Elitism

I think the Warbird community is opening up here and owners are more agreeable and willing to let folk get up close and personal with their aeroplanes , no small feat considering the value of a P51 and a Spit etc and their time restoring their plane . So many thanks to owners who allow this .

In the USA I have noticed that operators let the public get even closer to their planes – tours through ALL of a B17 – kids scrambling all over them and the planes being mobbed /surrounded by the public ,having their skins , guns , tyres touched after shutdown and all safety precautions observed , SO maybe the operators in the US are a bit further ahead than us and maybe in the UK we will follow this trend and get away from the” DONT TOUCH “Mentality .Though I understand many owners vary in their feelings about this and understandably so .

To summarise I feel our American friends are that bit more giving and willing to share their planes with Joe Public . The day of the reserved and Stiff Upper Lip Brit is diminishing though so maybe in 5-10 years or so we will be eqaul to the Level of Access the American Public now enjoy

born 1965

When’s the party 🙂

What a crock of ****. We’re not elitiest, we’re the most inclusive group I’ve ever been a member of. What other hobby has the same number of “spectators” who approach you to inspect your aircraft (insert hobby here)? I think we do an excellent job, given the surroundings of the airshow event at which we participate, to include the crowd in the excitement of warbirds.

Oh, BTW Dave, love the new avitar…

Steve

Steve,

In general I agree that here in the States we tend to go out of the way to make new folks welcome, on occaisions I have heard of problems, my thought on this was to see why we aren’t getting new blood IE Teenagers What I’ve read so far suggest that maybe we as a group need to maybe rethink on how to get the next gerneration involved. Be what Snaps suggest have cleaning parties to setting aside a non-airworthy project for the youngster to work on ect ect. I hope you didn’t mistrude my comments towards you or any of my fellow friends who own and operate Warbirds/Historical Aircraft.

Cheers
RER

I think there may be different situations with respect to the thread topic in the USA and the UK.

What a crock of ****. We’re not elitiest, we’re the most inclusive group I’ve ever been a member of. What other hobby has the same number of “spectators” who approach you to inspect your aircraft (insert hobby here)? I think we do an excellent job, given the surroundings of the airshow event at which we participate, to include the crowd in the excitement of warbirds.

Oh, BTW Dave, love the new avitar…

Steve

I can only relate from my own limited involvement in historic aviation in that we were made to feel very unwelcome at a ‘certain’ well known warbird airfield by the management there and some (but not all) of the companies. We had fuel and equipment stolen from the aircraft and it was often moved without permission.

There is not much young blood coming in to this business.

I think it is actually quite frustrating for young people today to have an interest, be told what the rules and regulations are and then see adults doing what they (the kids) have just been told not to do. Whilst at a museum we explained to my neice that it was not a good idea to touch the aircraft…so she didn’t but she saw an adult holding onto and touching the wing in several different places. She was polite and said to the person concerned ‘Have you noticed the sign asking people not to touch the aircraft?’. The person then told her off, complained about the youth of today and what a cheek she had got talking to him as he was an adult! My neice then asked me why there were rules for kids and rules for adults.

Sorry that this has turned into a rant but it annoyed me, as she shows the owners/mechanics and Veterans etc the uttmost respect when she has been fortunate enough to meet them.

Maybe we could arrange for a few younger people to help with the cleaning /polishing of aircraft (like the one at The Shuttleworth Collection that some of the forum members were involved in). The young people could learn a bit about history and at the same time be given a supervised close look at the some of various aircraft.

Regards,
Snaps

Wow great responce so far now I guess what MkV is saying that and correct me if I’m wrong here MkV is that in the most part we all enjoy are Hobby and will go out of the way to let new people in but with that saids we still have to make sure we don’t drive away the next Warbird Pilot/Aircrew/Mech.

I agree Rob, I am not exactly old yet (born 1965) but nearly all the people who I work with as volunteers are around the same age as me or older. There is not much young blood coming in to this business.

When I was at Ardmore, Auckland, on Sunday, Marcus Bridle and I had a quick chat with a middle aged man on the flightline in front of the NZ Warbirds hangar. He was a very proud father waiting for his son. He said his son had started going down to the Warbirds hangar and volunteering to clean the aircraft a couple of years ago. He asked for nothing and was never pushy, but he got to know the Warbirds guys and eventually he was accepted into the group, and they began taking him for the occasional ride in return for his time helping on the flightline. The man said he’s now got his flying licence and he actually flies with them (I assume as a backseater with an experienced pilot in control) including he said in the P51D. And best part of the story is he’s just 16 years old!

I think in almost every hobby and group there can always be a little bit of elitism, especially if there are people who are naturally like that in all aspects of their life involved. But in general, you don’t seem to find a lot of it in warbirds. I think perhaps because it is such a tight-knit community who know they rely on each other for support when the time arises. If it were elitist and they didn’t want to let the general public in on the good stuff, they’d never have airshows, there would not be publications like Flypast and many others, and no new people like the young man I mentioned above would have a look-in at joining the bunch.

I have found the people at Ardmore some of the friendliest in New Zealand, every pilot and ground crew member I have approached, or watched others approach, has taken the time to chat about the plane. There is no restriction to keep the public out of the way, or off the flightline, everyone is welcome to walk up and see the planes up close, so long as they are careful and safety conscious. I think that makes it a much more appealling experience for anyone, whether they know all about the aircraft or are a complete novice they’re welcome and will have their questions answered.

Costs, time availability, busy schedules, insurance, health and safety, and access arrangements are amongst the reasons why people who are not directly associated with historic aircraft may find it difficult to get involved.

IMHO genuine enthusiasts who are respectful of the environment and wishes of the owners, are able to visit and also become involved with historic aircraft restoration, maintenance and operation.

Those who set out with the wrong intentions or attitudes will not only come unstuck but spoil things for those that may follow.

That is my opionion and you are all welcome to it. 😀

Has anyone mentioned forum cliques yet. I did once but I think I got away with it.

Hi All,Avro thanks for sharing those great memories, I have taken my son to airshows since he was little (he’s now 7) and also got the chance to show him around the Air Atlantique Classic Flight hanger (with whom I’m a volunteer) coventry over xmas and he really enjoyed it. I hope that giving him this kind of exposure now means that he can take it further if he wishes later on,it is thanks to my parents indulging me with my passion for aircraft over the years that I got to go to loads of airshows and museums over the years,however I wish I had had more confidence in my teens to persue some kind of career in aviation,rather than leaving it till now to get more involved,Iguess I always thought it was a bit elitist on the other side of the fence,but now that I have taken the plunge I can only say that I have met a great bunch of people.
Has anybody got any ideas how we can encourage the next generation,it is easy if they express an interest then you can encourage it but how do you get them’exposed to it in the first place? 🙂

Hi All,

Wow great responce so far now I guess what MkV is saying that and correct me if I’m wrong here MkV is that in the most part we all enjoy are Hobby and will go out of the way to let new people in but with that saids we still have to make sure we don’t drive away the next Warbird Pilot/Aircrew/Mech.

So how do we go about doing that and also how do we get youngster involved. My thought is to have them help out on the line durning the show or if you have a project going on have them help on it of course they will have to be closely watch but at least we are showing interest.

I like what the EAA has done with the Young Eagle program maybe the Warbird/Historical Community can take this one step more,if so how and what way can we do it.

Ok folks over to you for comments and ideas.

Cheers
RER

Well, I’m new at this but Phil Earthy is really keen to show his to us girls……..

Harvard I mean :dev2:

Some people just cannot resist the temptation!

Anyway to return to topic – I think that the warbird world is not necassarily elitist but is widely seen as being so, with perhaps not enough being done to dispel this image.

😎 Mk V This is the answer in a nut shell. This is my experience.

dakota2