Is this an ammo counter?

I call that a senior moment.

Oops thanks for the correction – I was obviously thinking of the F3 LOL 🙂

The F1 had 2 x Aden cannon. Some or all that went to the TFF units had them removed and the ports blanked.

Hi Terry

The Lightning F1 did not have guns fitted 😉

I have looked in an online F6 Vol1 and did not find a mention of an ammo counter (which does not necessarily mean there wasn’t one).

A look in a 1086 might be helpful (gawd – haven’t seen one of those for many many years 🙂 )

Looks like at least some Lightnings only carried 60 rounds per gun,so the subject item might fit.

5D/1977 might not be listed in the Volume 3 because it may be a ‘piece part spare’ rather than a ‘line replaceable unit’ ie; a sub assembly rather than an assembly. I can’t find it in the only Lightning Vol 3 that I have (for the Mk.F1 ).

Does anyone have an AP1086 for Section 5D?

Hi Derry,

I would agree with basv’s assessment of your image. 

Re the number of counter reels. I agree that it looks like one is missing, but I also think the counter is being used to show rounds remaining rather than rounds used. 

Hi Derry

I do not think your side by side is the same item – looks more like a radio/comms/nav unit to me.

As I posted previously the sect/ref (section/reference) number on the back will positively identify your item (5D/1977) – perhaps if you can find somebody with a Lightning Vol 3 (illustrated parts catalogue) you can ID it ?

Sorry for any slight thread drift – a few of us obviously went to the same apprentice school (1S of TT Halton) 🙂

The reference to Hunter ‘Gun Dip’ was the ‘fix’ for engine flame outs during cannon firing – when the firing button was depressed it also cut down on the amount of fuel supplied to the engine – thus avoiding engine surging/flame outs.

Hi all, apologies for dipping out, I’ve been working nights so not really been keeping up with current events. I’m glad this sparked a bit of discussion!

One of the things that made me pose the question in the first place was the fact the counter only reads up to 99 (unless the first reel is broken or damaged) which strikes me as low for either an ammunition amount, or indeed countermeasures? I would say however that Oracal is probably the most accurate, the item was sold as, if I remember the tag correctly “ammo counter probably from Lightning” so it was the “probably” that caused me to pose the question!

Unfortunately it’s quite hard to find good, clear hi-res images that would  help online, the one at Tangmere has a potential match if you use the interactive cockpit view but I’m not sure if it’s the ammo counter I’m looking at?

I’ve done a side by side with my photo and Tangmere page…

I have to say a large part of what you’re all saying is going straight over my head, however it’s giving me a lot of information to go away and look up, every day is a school day! Happy new year all!

basv – I doubt that other than you, me, Terry and hypersonic will have a clue about what we are on about. 

Hunter Fix = ”Gun Dip” 🙂

– now that is going back a few years 🙂

Probably as far back as the aforementioned Hill and Workshops LOL

Logged on to change TTF to TFF… a covid/senior moment. The Hunter cannon/flameout issue had been fixed by the time the F4 was into service. Never heard of the early Lightning gun issue and flamouts before. Do we need a ‘sooty’?

If others can’t keep up… march them up the hill and back down to workshops twice a day.

I hope everybody is keeping up with this.

It’s possible, of course, that my training notes are using the term guns – as a piece of inter-trade banter. There are other comments within the notes that seem to support the point. I can’t say I ever heard the term cannon used at Binbrook. However, the term did arise on the Tornado (Mauser 27) at Cottesmore a few years later.

The reason why the cannon (I will use that term from here) was removed from the nose of the Lightning was smoke would often be sucked into the engines with a loss of performance being observed. Placing the cannons underneath the airframe and slightly further back resolved the issue.

Hunters often had complete flameouts when firing their weapons.

In the timeframe you appear to be talking about the F1 was being removed from service, from its TFF (not TTF) role. That role didn’t need cannons any way of course.

Hi hypersonic.

I believe that the Royal Small Arms Factory knew them (the Aden) as ‘cannons’. Until meeting the Hunters at 1 S of TT I had always thought that the distinction between cannon and gun was down to hot lead versus bullet, but a ‘plumber’ advised that it was all about the weapon being one complete assembly versus separate bits assembled together. 

ISTR we had a few of the ex TFF F1 Lightnings scattered around the hangars at 60mu, Leconfield. They (I think) had their cannons removed and the ports covered in the same way as the F2. But it has been 50+ years…

Happy new year to all.

Ok Terry, I have never worked on the Vulcan – but I have sat in many “front seats” of the type. However, I have never sat in any of the rear seats. I’m a bit of a V-Bomber geek who is now confused as to what the counters would be for (as per my previous mention of the subject).

Clearly, you have a better chance to inspect the panel than we have via a photo.

But thanks. 

Hypersonic,

Actually that Vulcan panel is a B.Mk.2 variety (note the MFS Nav’s Compass Repeater and Track Control Unit) though I do accept that the EWCUs are probably of the earlier pattern.

Terry, you are of course entitled to present your information. This is at the end of the day a process of elimination. I don’t know but maybe you didn’t know your AEO panel is a B1 example as opposed to a B1A/B2 example.

For those not that familiar with the Lightning….

Whilst the F2 and F2A had guns/cannons fitted. The F2 came with a smaller ventral tank and guns/ cannons fitted in the nose above the air intake. The F2A had the guns/cannons fitted in the front of an enlarged ventral tank (directly below the pilot).

The F3 saw no guns/cannons at all. As well as the smaller ventral tank.

F3A saw a larger ventral tank with the guns/cannons installed in the front of the ventral tank – in much the same way as the F2A variant did.

Some F3’s and most of the F3A’s were later uplifted to full F6 config. It is a matter of record some ex F3’s initially didn’t carry guns/cannons (despite being called F6). However, in my time they had acquired guns/cannons. I don’t remember any single seaters without that capability.

F6 saw larger ventral tank with guns/cannons installed in the front of the ventral tank (as per the F2A). In this config the pilot was sitting directly above the pack. Sitting directly on top of the pack was perhaps a poor choice of words on my part.

My training notes (yes, I still have them) refer to the guns/cannons as Aden guns.

The F2A variant continued until 1977. So yes, it is a contender. My personal experience lies with the F3, F6 and T5. So, I “ignored” the F2A altogether.

Happy new year to all.

Point of order…

The Lightning F6 cannon was located in the fwd part of the ventral tank and sometimes flew without the cannon (early F6 didn’t have any cannon fitted at all). 
 

My own 2 pence worth. F2A ammo remaining counter.

T’was just a suggestion.

A Happy New Year to all.

Terry Parker – you have edited your thoughts. Originally saying “Window” (now called Chaff) to Electronic Warfare Control Units. Along with your photo of a Vulcan AEO’s panel.

The counter’s Sect Ref No seems to support the theory that it is/was a generic use item – that is to say a commodity item.

My thoughts are – Vulcan B1 used Chaff for defence, and I suppose the AEO would like to know how much of the stuff he has left. However, the last operational B1 was SOC 08 64 which predates the STI date. Incidentally the correct marking should have been “Satis” and not as per. By 08 58 we had the B2 in the air. It came with ECM gear mainly installed in a bulbus tail cone complete with “warts”. The AEO’s panel would have been re-worked as part of B2 production. I can’t see why there is a requirement for an electro/mechanical counter in the ECM system. Additionally, the remaining B1’s were uplifted with ECM and referred to as B1A. But they had gone by the time of the STI date.

In Terry’s photo there seems to be 4x counters along the bottom of the panel. Whilst the counters do look similar I’m convinced, as I said above, there is no purpose for the subject counter to have been used in a Vulcan B1A/B2 and therefore not the latest use of the counter. But possibly B1?

Lightning F6 – the pilot sat directly on top of the armaments pack 2x missile and 2x guns. Just to the right of your lower right leg when sitting in the seat is a rectangular box containing 2x counters looking very similar to the subject item. In my time on the Lightning, I never saw a box being removed or its contents being examined.

So, in an attempt to draw a conclusion, I believe the last use of the subject counter is a Lightning F6. This type saw operational service post the STI date of course. The counters previous use, to that, may have been on a Vulcan B1.

Canberra 341 is an ex-RAF PR9 (XH166). The PR9 just happens to be a project I’m working on at the moment – small world!!

My immediate thought was that it is a counter used for the release of packages of “window” or chaff. Could it be the the counter type used on the Electronic Warfare control units shown (quite indistinctly) below Vulcan AEO’s panel: