Is this Woodvale?…Moggy

Mark,

I hear what you say, but is there any chance you could email me a copy at monbrythATaolDOTcom? I love a challange (even though I’ll probably end up with egg on my face).

Brian

Mark,

Do you have Photoshop or some similar program? If so it might be worth trying the ‘Adjust lighting’ option – by reducing the shadow, or changing the ‘levels’ you will find there is considerably more detail visible in the background.

Brian

Brian,

I use PSP Paint Shop Pro which has full brightness/contrast control. The image of TE400 is on the optimum for the principal element as viewed by me, to my liking, on an ‘UltraSharp’ Dell monitor. You may be seeing something different to me! It is a low grade print on textured paper.

Consul,

The M P Marsh shot posted on PRUNE refers to the shot at Honiley.

………………………….

‘Henry Crun’ has disappeared from the radar.

Personally I do not think it is Woodvale and cannot be 1957.

Mark

Mark,

Do you have Photoshop or some similar program? If so it might be worth trying the ‘Adjust lighting’ option – by reducing the shadow, or changing the ‘levels’ you will find there is considerably more detail visible in the background.

Brian

The THUM Flight aircraft landed at Speke only to hand the met information gathered during a sortie to the met office. The only other airfield at which the THUM Flight was based was Hooton Park between 1 May and 12 July 1951.

Brian.

Silver RAF Tigermoth with roundel and what I think is a Silver Proctor again with roundel.

Mark

I see the PPrune thread credits M P Marsh as the photographer – I think Maurice is still around and living in the Lincolnshire area. A lot of his 1950s shots were taken in the Midlands.

Let’s try another tack. Has anyone identified the two a/c in the middle distance (if they are aircraft!!!)? That might just give an additional clue as to where and when the shot was taken
HTH
Resmoroh

Silver RAF Tigermoth with roundel and what I think is a Silver Proctor again with roundel.

Mark

Let’s try another tack. Has anyone identified the two a/c in the middle distance (if they are aircraft!!!)? That might just give an additional clue as to where and when the shot was taken
HTH
Resmoroh

I spent a lot of time spotting at Speke in my youth.

It feels less like Speke than Woodvale. And not too much like Woodvale. Looking at it again can the type of tree be made out more clearly in the original? For Woodvale they have to be pines. If they are deciduous (Broad-leaved) then I’m prepared to start placing very long odds against it being Woodvale

Moggy

I’m told that the THUM Spit also flew from Speke. That could be the south-eastern end of the old North airfield. (?)

The area around the control tower and the T2s has been reworked since the post war years. I wouldn’t let the absence of a circular dispersal there influence your judgement. They are very transient things.

Moggy

I spent a good deal of time flying out of Woodvale with 10AEF in the eighties and from the ir pretty much most of the dispersal hard standings were still there albeit with one or two a bit over grown. The area around Woodvale is pretty flat so wouldnt make that much of an impression in the background

Martin

A poster on PPrune says that this particular Spitfire ended up as a gate guardian, probably at RAF Honiley, near Kenilworth, in about 1955.
Again, a look at Google maps

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?oi=eu_map&q=Honiley&hl=en

suggests that Honiley has plenty of trees fairly close in (in modern times anyway). Maybe this is where the picture was taken – I’ve driven past Honiley dozens of time without really being aware there was an airfield there, but that part of Warwickshire certainly undulates and could give the relief that appears to be on the skyline. It’s also well inland, which suits Resmoroh’s analysis.
Again from the PPrune poster, TE400 became 7240M (actually marked as M7240). Perhaps the picture dates from its arrival at Honiley, although it was declared non-effective stock in December 1954 and the picture is obviously a summer one, judging by the trees.
There are other pictures on PPrune, one of which was probably taken at the same time as Mark 12’s and does look like Woodvale at first (but at a second look doesn’t quite hang together with the theory that the Spitfire is pointing north, the trees being strung out along Woodvale’s western edge). The second is of her as M7240. The RAF buildings behind her could well be the same ones visible below the prop in Mark 12’s picture, although given the uniformity of wartime military architcture I wouldn’t attach too much significance to that!

William

William

If you agree with my PI interpretations in my earlier that the sun was high in the sky then that must mean it was somewhere to the south. The engine nacelle and prop shadow is to the right of the a/c – thus the light source must have been to the left. Thus my opinion that the a/c was facing North(-ish). The rudder is in full sunlight, thus the sun was slightly to the right of the a/c centre-line (facing forward). If all this is accepted then the camera must have been pointing West(-ish). Pointing West(-ish) from Woodvale then the Irish Sea is nobbut a spit in the wind from the camera position. It is not often (i.e. very rare!), in summer, that Cu2 develops at exactly the same rate (a) over land, and (b) over a sea surface. The shot shows the same type of development well into the far (West?) distance – i.e. the surface over which it was developing was the same.
I would dearly like this pic nailed. It’s bugging me – not just from an aviation point of view, but also from a professional point of view!!!
Resmoroh (Met Man Retired!)

The area around the control tower and the T2s has been reworked since the post war years. I wouldn’t let the absence of a circular dispersal there influence your judgement. They are very transient things.

Moggy

It looks like it is standing on a circular area of concrete – I can’t see anywhere on the Woodvale aerial image that could align the aircraft with the hangars.

Regards,

Dan

For what it’s worth I don’t think those are hills. The cloud formation is 6/8 Cu (Type 2) as the lowest layer and 7+/8 high Sc or low thin As as the upper layer (strong, crisp, shadows). I think what can be seen beyond the trees to the left of the fin top are the tops of more Cu2 in the distance. The shot was taken somewhere around midday in the summer (a/c shadows almost directly under the wings – so the sun must have been high in the sky. That is also confirmed by the stage of development of the Cu2 on a normal summer’s day. The a/c appears to be pointing North (position of shadows). TE400 does not appear ever to have been on the strength of the THUM flight, or 5 CAACU.
HTH
Resmoroh.

This is the context of the query.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=276320

I do not think it is Woodvale 1957 for other reasons, as stated on Prune.

Mark

1945 shot if it helps

Ummmm. Anyone know Woodvale intimately? At first I was going to say it couldn’t be, as from the possible location of the Spitfire to the sand dunes and trees is half a mile or so and the other side of the runway.
But refreshing my mind courtesy of Google Maps

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&t=h&om=1&ll=53.585041,-3.051431&spn=0.008967,0.019784&z=16

and there is a group of trees just the east of the northern end of the runway next to the caravan park. On t’other hand I cant recall any rising ground there, and besides, the long axis of Woodvale’s hangars, at least today, tends to run north-south.
There’s a clump of trees just inside the perimeter track on the n-west side, but even whan making allowances for the changes of the last 50-odd years, it doesn’t quite click together for me.
If someone can prove it is Woodvale, then great, but so far I’m very doubtful.

William

After looking through my Woodvale stuff I would say no, it dosn’t look right for Woodvale but I could be wrong, send it to Aldon Ferguson he should be able to confirm it for sure as this is one of his expert areas.

[email]aldonpf@aol.com[/email]

For what it’s worth I don’t think those are hills. The cloud formation is 6/8 Cu (Type 2) as the lowest layer and 7+/8 high Sc or low thin As as the upper layer (strong, crisp, shadows). I think what can be seen beyond the trees to the left of the fin top are the tops of more Cu2 in the distance. The shot was taken somewhere around midday in the summer (a/c shadows almost directly under the wings – so the sun must have been high in the sky. That is also confirmed by the stage of development of the Cu2 on a normal summer’s day. The a/c appears to be pointing North (position of shadows). TE400 does not appear ever to have been on the strength of the THUM flight, or 5 CAACU.
HTH
Resmoroh.

The best I can offer is that, assuming this was taken around the end of the day rather than the beginning, then at Woodvale the camera is pointing to the north.

There are certainly no significant hills North of Woodvale, but there are some sand dunes which might, or might not be visible from a picture taken on the ramp through the trees.

The best I can offer is

If they are hills it is not Woodvale.

If they are dunes then there is nothing else in the shot that would lead me to say it definitely isn’t.

Best I can do.

Moggy