Islam in Europe

Exactly on topic.

Aren’t the Swiss people about to vote on banning Minarettes?
The Gov’t objects to the ban, but in Swissy land if you get 100k signatures it becomes a by-law or somesuch.

Anybody familiar with Swiss law to correct / confirm that lot?

Much to the consternation of the Swiss government the law will be enacted following the majority vote. Referenda of any sort prove how out of touch governments are with their electorates, which is why the EU fears them so much.

Exactly on topic.

Aren’t the Swiss people about to vote on banning Minarettes?
The Gov’t objects to the ban, but in Swissy land if you get 100k signatures it becomes a by-law or somesuch.

Anybody familiar with Swiss law to correct / confirm that lot?

I’m not trying to blame Bush for the current problems, but trying to make a link between all the problems and the Islamic world alone is simply not fair. And from my perspective, attempts to bash the Islamic religion and its followers are simply arrogant, ignorant and disrespectful.

From where I am sitting let us say it does not help rational debate to describe someone as a Christian Fascist. If the religion itself was being bashed I would agree with you. The problem is that the a minority of zealots overtly wish death and destruction on the West. They are opposed by their moderate brethren of whom they tale no notice or worst tar with the same brush.

And I cannot see that it is arrogant, ignorant or disrespectful to BASH, as you woild have it, these muslims.

More ignorant extremism here – so now we have Bush as a Christian facsist being blamed for problems which preceded his Presidency by a long way.

I’m not trying to blame Bush for the current problems, but trying to make a link between all the problems and the Islamic world alone is simply not fair. And from my perspective, attempts to bash the Islamic religion and its followers are simply arrogant, ignorant and disrespectful.

That will do, chaps.

Discuss the subject of the thread please, not one another’s perceived failings.

Thank You

GA

Slapped wrist accepted Grey Area, but I assume that that notion of extremist views, as referred to earlier in this thread, is pertinent as long as it not personalised.

Moderator Message

That will do, chaps.

Discuss the subject of the thread please, not one another’s perceived failings.

Thank You

GA

Instead of trying to link the Islamic religion and its followers to the problems in Europe, you should be asking what Christian fascists (like your former President Bush) had done to his world to provoke so much hatred. Obviously I don’t expect you to do that, because I strongly believe you lack both the guts and the intelligence to do so.

More ignorant extremism here – so now we have Bush as a Christian facsist being blamed for problems which preceded his Presidency by a long way.

I fully realize that many people here think I’m an ignorant, racist, stereotypical arrogant American, but I’m just trying to figure out how people in Europe feel about this particular issue. Obviously I am not able to get all the facts because I don’t live in Europe, but from my perspective it seems like a rather scary change is occuring in Europe, and I’m afraid that the rather liberal nature of many nations in Europe won’t do much to stop what would appear to be a real problem. I could be wrong, but it’s just how I see it from my perspective.

Instead of trying to link the Islamic religion and its followers to the problems in Europe, you should be asking what Christian fascists (like your former President Bush) had done to his world to provoke so much hatred. Obviously I don’t expect you to do that, because I strongly believe you lack both the guts and the intelligence to do so.

You are correct to be careful about photos of demonstrations and signs shown. The photojournalist has to find pics that will sell and they attend every event, rally, march no matter how small. So the publicity given easly gives a visual impression of an event larger than it actually is in many cases.

As for Islam increasing in Europe, I really have not noticed problems with the ones I meet so have no concerns if it does increase.The ones I have met are thoughtful,hospitable educated and a world away from the alcohol fuelled bigots who are only on the streets to have a fight.

My personal experience is the same as yours but the problem is the “alcohol fuelled bigots who are only the streets to have a fight” in response to the Muslim minority who do not accept our way of life nor the necessity for them to live in peace amongst us.

You are correct to be careful about photos of demonstrations and signs shown. The photojournalist has to find pics that will sell and they attend every event, rally, march no matter how small. So the publicity given easly gives a visual impression of an event larger than it actually is in many cases.

As for Islam increasing in Europe, I really have not noticed problems with the ones I meet so have no concerns if it does increase.The ones I have met are thoughtful,hospitable educated and a world away from the alcohol fuelled bigots who are only on the streets to have a fight.

Sadly, much of the conflict of today is rooted well and truly in the past. I once asked an Irish friend about why they had issues with Britian and she told me in excrutiating detail every wrong (preceived or otherwise) and action which had taken place against Ireland from the 1600s onwards. She was a normal person but clearly the historical framework was well and truly imbedded in her psyche.

I have no doubt you are right and your example only emphasises my point. Until people everywhere cease living in the past and continuing to bear grudges and worse, wishing revenge, for wrongs for which they cannot possibly have any personal feeling, the world will remain an unsafe place.

Fair point and well intended, but the wrongs of the past don’t necessarily justify the wrongs of the present.

Sadly, much of the conflict of today is rooted well and truly in the past. I once asked an Irish friend about why they had issues with Britian and she told me in excrutiating detail every wrong (preceived or otherwise) and action which had taken place against Ireland from the 1600s onwards. She was a normal person but clearly the historical framework was well and truly imbedded in her psyche.

Sorry, but I think we are supposed to be discussing now, not centuries ago. If you read what is written it is not anti-Islam, it is anti any Muslim who is not prepared to come here to live without malicious intent towards us and to abide by our laws.

What is history now was current at the time. Think about the spread of Roman Catholicism in central and southern America and how that was achieved.

The point I am making is that at any point in time there will be movements of people of different cultrures and religions. It is a historical fact and no amount of Daily Mail type rhetoric will changes that.

There is no such thing as a truly “British culture” and to pretend otherwise is harking towards the thoughts of a certain Mr A Hitler.

Lots of Muslim people come here and settle and integrate into society and fair play to them. I just get fed up with people painting all Muslims with the same brush.

I don’t know how accurate this news is(from daily mail) but i certainly found it amusing. Particularly the picture of guy in yellow shirt 😀

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1189577/Muslim-extremists-anti-war-protest-driven-members-community.html

……..but it might explain why some places don’t like us ?

Undeniably. And that surely is one of today’s problems – that people continue to harbour ill-will for past deeds, in many cases perpetrated centuries ago. I find it irrational and unhelpful but, living as we do in a world where the apology by someone without a grain of responsibility for a crime long since committed and forgotten by the majority is de rigeur, it is hardly surprising.

……..but it might explain why some places don’t like us ?

Not at all. Genuine respect for the correct use of language.

And the ‘Daily Mail hysteria’ was a generalised comment, not one particularly directed at you.

Moggy

Thank you kind, sir – it is important to try to use the language correctly, if possible, although we are all guilty of poor construction, grammar and vocabulary from time to time. Expectation and anticipation is another pair….could this be the cue for a new thread??;)

Hi All

Just a little thought………….within the last couple of hundred years Europe headed out, visited lots of country’s, stole all the goodies they had and killed lots of the locals.

Most of Europe did it, creating nice little empires. I think its worth remembering.

Another thought if I may. I do feel some of our Muslims have lost some respect for the Europeans who have become secular.

We Europeans have done some pretty dreadful things in the past, we should not forget that.

Fair point and well intended, but the wrongs of the past don’t necessarily justify the wrongs of the present.

Hi All

Just a little thought………….within the last couple of hundred years Europe headed out, visited lots of country’s, stole all the goodies they had and killed lots of the locals.

Most of Europe did it, creating nice little empires. I think its worth remembering.

Another thought if I may. I do feel some of our Muslims have lost some respect for the Europeans who have become secular.

We Europeans have done some pretty dreadful things in the past, we should not forget that.

The problem is not solely any minority(but you could argue that Islamic ideals conflict with the secular western culture we have grown up in ergo Islam gets the most flak) but when large numbers of the same group of peoples are chucked together in the same street or village or whatever then from their perspective they’re got a little part of their home in ours; where there is a street with 70% Poles most of which have only been in the country a couple of years at the most then you’re going to expect some Polish writing in the Polish food shop at the end of the street why should they intergrate when in their area they’re not the minority? It’s the traditional working British man/woman that is; i’m not for a second saying it’s right or that I agree but it’s the way it is!

This is not a new problem, It’s been around for at least 30 years, Greeks and Cypriots in and North London in the 70s to name but one example

The problem is not high levels of immigration but a lack of intergration (although the former is directly linked to the latter)

PS: seeing as I’ve just attacked mutliculturalism should I prepare for incoming?

PPS: I do appreciate that I have sidestepped the issue by ignoring Islam but Islam is not at the root of the problem