Ok Guys i’m sorry to start a controversial topic, but i personally wanted to know what it is like in Europe really that the media is making about.
Firstly, Lemme be clear I have no problems with any religion as long as it doesnt effects by liberal and free thinking, and I respect every religion and believe each have its values merits and demerits.
I didnt much believed in this stuffs but recently i came by a article,
Russia has a Muslim dilemma Ethnic Russians hostile to Muslims
Followers of Islam say they have been citizens a long time
– Michael Mainville, Chronicle Foreign Service
Sunday, November 19, 2006(11-19) 04:00 PST Moscow — Crammed amid the gray monoliths of Moscow’s 1980 Olympics complex, the Sobornaya Mosque was the only Islamic house of worship that was allowed to function under the Soviet regime. It stood largely empty then, filling up only with the occasional large foreign delegation from Islamic countries.
Today, its pale blue walls cannot contain the hundreds who come to pray. On Fridays and holy days, it overflows with worshipers, leaving many forced to kneel on newspapers outside, their foreheads pressing against the concrete.
Zabir Valeev was attending midday prayers on a recent Friday with his 8-year-old son, and could hardly hide his frustration. “We shouldn’t have to stand out here in the cold,” said Valeev, 32. “What does it show to my son that there is no place in Moscow for us to pray?”
The Sobornaya is one of four mosques in the Russian capital to serve a Muslim population of about 2.5 million — the largest of any European city. Muslim leaders say attempts to build more have been blocked by local officials, who fear angering Moscow’s ethnic Russian majority.
“In the Soviet period, people were forbidden from practicing their religions. Now they are embracing their faith again,” said Ildar Alyautdinov, an imam at the Sobornaya Mosque. “But to have only four mosques in Moscow — obviously that’s not enough. … We deserve more respect.”
Across Russia, Islam is thriving. Experts say the country is undergoing a startling change and that if current trends continue, more than half of Russia’s population will be Muslim by midcentury.
“Russia is going through a religious transformation that will be of even greater consequence for the international community than the collapse of the Soviet Union,” said Paul Goble, an expert on Islam in Russia and a research associate at the University of Tartu in Estonia.
As in many Western countries with growing Muslim populations, tensions are also on the rise. Ethnic Russians fear their country is losing its traditional identity; Muslims are offended by widespread discrimination and a lack of respect for their faith.
Russia’s Muslims are extremely diverse, including Volga Tatars, the myriad ethnicities of the North Caucasus and newly arrived immigrants from the former Soviet republics of Central Asia. But they all share an important demographic — birth rates far higher than that of Russia’s Christian Orthodox, ethnic Slavs.
Russia’s overall population is dropping at a rate of 700,000 people a year, largely due to the short life spans and low birth rates of ethnic Russians. The country’s 2002 census shows that the national fertility rate is 1.5 children per woman, far below the 2.1 children per woman needed to maintain the country’s population of about 143 million. The rate in Moscow is even lower, at 1.1 children per woman.
But Russia’s Muslims are bucking that trend. The fertility rate for Tatars living in Moscow, for example, is six children per woman, Goble said, while the Chechen and Ingush communities are averaging 10 children per woman. And hundreds of thousands of Muslims from Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan have been flocking to Russia in search of work.
Since 1989, Russia’s Muslim population has increased by 40 percent to about 25 million. By 2015, Muslims will make up a majority of Russia’s conscript army, and by 2020 a fifth of the population.
“If nothing changes, in 30 years people of Muslim descent will definitely outnumber ethnic Russians,” Goble said.
For many ethnic Russians, the prospect of becoming a minority in their country is unthinkable, and nationalist sentiments are on the rise. “Russia is historically a Slavic, Orthodox Christian land, and we need to make sure it stays that way,” said Alexander Belov, head of the Movement Against Illegal Immigration, an increasingly powerful interest group that has organized dozens of rallies in recent months.
Most Muslims living in Russia are not immigrants, but the indigenous people of lands long ago seized by the expanding Russian empire. And Islam is recognized as one of Russia’s official religions, along with Orthodox Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism. But few nationalists make a distinction between immigrants from former Soviet countries and non-Slavic Russian citizens.
Attacks on mosques have been increasing. In September, an imam in the southern city of Kislovodsk was shot dead outside his home. During days of rioting in August, mobs chased Chechens and other migrants from the Caucasus region out of the northwestern town of Kondopoga.
Many Russians associate Islam with extremists from Chechnya, who have carried out dozens of bombings and other attacks against civilians. Separatism began in Chechnya as a largely nationalist movement, but has been increasingly influenced by the ideas of radical Islamist organizations such as al Qaeda.
Sensing the nationalist mood, Russian authorities have begun to crack down. This fall, four Russian regions introduced mandatory classes in Orthodox Christianity in all schools. On Wednesday, the Russian Cabinet announced a new law that will ban foreigners, most of them Muslims, from working in retail stalls and markets, starting next year. Thursday, the director of the Federal Migration Service, Konstantin Romodanovsky, said foreigners should not be allowed to create “ethnic enclaves” in which they outnumber “native Russians” in any district or region of the country.
Belov said non-Slavs, no matter what their citizenship, should be restricted from living in “traditional Russian lands.”
The Orthodox church hierarchy has denounced nationalist and anti-Islamic statements. “Orthodox Christians, Muslims and members of other traditional churches have lived in Russia side by side for centuries. Russia has never had religious wars and, I hope, it never will,” Orthodox patriarch Alexey II said last summer.
Muslim leaders say the nationalist rhetoric reflects a clear lack of understanding of Russian history.
“The Muslims of Russia have roots here; we have been part of Russia for centuries,” said Rusham Abbyasov, a spokesman for Russia’s Council of Muftis, which represents Islam’s spiritual leaders in the country. “It is not right to say that Russia is a Christian country. These people either don’t know the history or they are ignoring it.”
Abbyasov said one of the main reasons for antagonism toward Russian Muslims is their portrayals in the media. On Russian television, Muslims are most often portrayed as either criminals or religious radicals waging a holy war against Christians. One of Russia’s bestselling novels last year, “The Mosque of Notre Dame de Paris,” depicted a mid-21st century Europe where Islam was the state religion and Christians were forced to live in ghettos.
“The image of Muslims presented in the media is very distorted,” Abbyasov said. “When people hear the phrase ‘Allahu Akbar’ (“God is great” in Arabic), they immediately think of people shooting at them or blowing themselves up.”
The danger of growing anti-Islamic sentiment, Goble said, is that it threatens to push Russian Muslims further outside the mainstream and into the arms of radicals. Because of the Soviet legacy of religious repression, the majority of people living in Russia with Muslim backgrounds are largely secular — attached to Islam mostly as part of their ethnic identity. But with interest in Islam surging, that also leaves them open to being influenced by extremist ideas, he said.
In recent years, Russia has expelled dozens of foreigners accused of preaching radical Islam on its territory. “People who know they are Muslims but don’t know exactly what that means could be radicalized, especially if they feel excluded from Russian society. It’s a real threat,” he said.
Goble said Western governments need to do more to encourage Russia to integrate Muslims into society and avoid discrimination. “When Muslims are in the majority in Russia, they’ll remember whether we spoke out for their rights or failed to,” he said.
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Ok, My questions.
1> Is the situation this bad in Europe?
2> Is there a possibility someday they might be the majority?
3> What kept me thinking a bit is that, I have no problems with any religion But,
i > This thing has been portrayed with greatness in Islam that it is spreading fast, it can spread all it want but being majority and then slowly implementing laws like
no alchohol
shariat
etc etc.
wont this be a matter of concern? as to certain religion the motto is more population and then bring change in socio-economic laws to suit it, i.e. some people forgets to be roman when in rome.
ii>I personally think each and every religion has its merits and demerits, nothing is perfect but many religion doesnt and argues show me the “flaw”, dont you guys think orthodox thinking will harm the socialist liberalism of society in long term?
Infact the day Human thinking will know the fact it is himself being far of from being perfect, the world will rise i guess.
afterall we are organic machine and no machine gives you 100% efficiency.
ex: to someone covering face in “non-facial places” is good, cool i have no problems but if you say being naked is vulger then i think thats not justified either, we are born with nothing we will die leaving everything – naked.
ii>Is there such possibility Europe/Russia turning Islamic and passing topols to other side of border :confused: ? because normally they feel irrespective of bounday all Muslims are brothers.
iv>I’m huge european/russian aviation fan, souldnt really like such climatic changes because it brings change in policy and socio-eco system as well.
4> Isnt this like a covert war type happening accross the world already?
5> Whats your point of view?
Ps : Hopefully I’didnt committed a crime or anything posting such a topic.
Cheers,
PLUR!!
By: Tony - 7th December 2006 at 17:50
Sorry for my rant, I’m sure I’ll get crucified for it, but as one of the members on the forum who likely has more enemies than friends here…. ….
That’s not true Coop, people on this forum who are genuine aviation enthusiasts respect those who post interesting threads that add to our aviation knowledge (someone springs to mind…;) ) . Also, I would add there must be only a tiny handful who don’t actually like the US or Americans (don’t ask me why:p) but there is also a fair number that see nothing wrong with disagreeing with some aspects of US foreign policy (no different from some Americans who do the same thing!).
You have to stand up to tyranny and oppression and terror or they will never go away….
I agree with you. However, I would also add that I voted for Blair (:eek: ) but I admit I was taken in and in hindsight would not vote for him again. Similarly, only a few Americans were against the Viet Nam war in the beginning in the late sixties (pinko liberal degenerates!…) but the general consensus by 1975 came to be that it was a good thing for the US to pull out and stop the losses at 50,000 servicemen.
By: PhantomII - 7th December 2006 at 17:09
Interesting replies Farooq…..you seem to have a level head on your shoulders.
One thing that does bother me though is there seems to be no outcry against the actions of terrorists from the Muslim community (be it in the United States or elsewhere). Perhaps that’s a function of the media not getting the message through (though in reality the media here is more anti-government than it would be anti-Muslim so showing that Muslims actually have a problem with the actions of terrorists would be in their best interested as it would make the government look worse), when certain Muslims groups do speak out.
With that being said, I never hear of groups like Hamas or Hezbollah being criticized by other Islamic peoples and/or groups, and it just seems to me that while they may not condonce the violence, they don’t really have a problem with the fact that it’s constantly occurring.
Let’s all remember one thing….at the end of the day, whatever your politics about American foreign policy and the like……people like Al-Sadr and Zarqawi (who’s thankfully dead), and Bin Laden (who I’m not so sure is even alive anymore), are the actual bad guys in this case.
As others have pointed out, they are killing more Muslims than they are non-Muslims, and as such I would expect much more outrage than I’ve seen from the worldwide Muslim community.
Is the fact that most Muslims probably disagree with American foreign policy to such an extent that they choose to ignore what’s going on with these fanatical nut jobs?
This brings me to another big issue I have that’s been brought up a lot lately…….the Iraqi people themselves.
The insurgency (& the terrorists) from what I can understand is a relative minority…at least from what I can understand……so why have the Iraqis not taken more pro-active steps at getting their own country in line?
I understand you may disagree with America having been there at all in the first place and that’s all well and good, but what’s done is done, and the Iraqi people owe it to themselves to stand up and make their voice heard that this violence has got to stop and the country has got to right itself.
There will come a time, even in my opinion as a member of the American armed forces, that we will have to step back and say…..”Okay, now it’s your turn…..take charge and get control of your country.” We can only do so much to foster that along, and despite what people would claim about us purposely killing civilians, are we NOT doing that, and in fact are attempting to rebuild a fractured nation.
I wish people would put their politics aside for a moment and realize that it’s almost to the point where it all needs to be on the Iraqi people to take care of themselves.
Sorry for my rant, I’m sure I’ll get crucified for it, but as one of the members on the forum who likely has more enemies than friends here I have to flat out say what I truly believe to be the case. Iraq can make a better life for itself, if the people will do enough. You have to stand up to tyranny and oppression and terror or they will never go away….
By: megalith - 7th December 2006 at 09:29
Hi SOC,
I think there are two responses to your question, my personnal view and that which theologians might argue, such as …….
That when God was suppossed to have given land to the Jews it was a very different religion to that we see today – being centered upon a sacrificial cult. Later after the building of the temple, this cult was centered upon the temple and had a rigid hierachy of priests. This is very different from Jewish observances of today, indeed there was a time when Judaism was evangelical (Herod the Great’s family being notable converts). Therefore it could be argued that we are talking about two religions related in the same way as Judaism and Christianity, and as such the original covenant is no longer applicable. Some have argued that the Roman expullsion of the Jews is confirmation of this thesis. Certainly the Koran also contains verses which by their apparent anti-semitism can by interpreted as contradicting the verse you have highlighted.
There are many variations upon the theme above (and many entirely different theological arguments extant), all of which see the relationship between God and humanity, including his choosen people, as dynamic. This idea is of course enshrined in the B’hai world faith. Many hasidic Rabis however would argue the original covenant stands and this gives the Jews and absoloute right to the land of Isreal. In other words scriptures and events are generally interpreted to support the view point of the interpreter. This makes resolving the problems of religious conflicts exceptionally hard as it often invloves getting one or both sides to alter their world view.
I’m a Pagan, a word that covers a very wide range of beliefs and belief systems – so lets not there now. I generally hold the moderate adherants of most religions in very high regard. However I do believe that organised religions and their scriptures are purely a human creation (replacing spiritual growth with dogma). As such what holly books say, is relevant only because adherants use it to justify their stance, and so we need to understand such texts to understand the world view of adherants.
Personnally my views?
‘If it harms none, do as you will,’ certainly much harm is being done by both sides which is a horrific state of affairs and needs resolution.
For the reasons above I don’t accept the Jews’ Biblical claim to the land of Israel, certainly the displacement of the Palastinains is utterley wrong. I do however accept the Jews have become a persecuted racial group (witness the proverb; you’re only a true Jew if you mother’s a Jew. And Israel’s occaisional use of genetic tests to decide immigration questions), and as such they should have their own homeland, but then so should various other groups, ie. the Kurds.
Do I have a solution? I’m affarid I don’t. Israel exists, I can’t see that changing. The Palastinians want there land back, that won’t change either – so welcome to the wonderful world of human conflict and intransegance.
However there is always hope; Peace is a process, as we have seen in Northern Ireland. If it can work there, can it work in the Middle East? I hope so.
Steve.
By: Farooq - 7th December 2006 at 06:21
3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed.
So Allah refers to himself as “we”?
Sorry but you lost me on that one……..
That “we” part is probably a wrong translation if taken literraly,but is widely used to narrate God’s message with “we” being used to translate the part Where God is refering to Himself.
By the way did you do a small google on that? would have been quite evident.
Sounds to me like he’s telling Muslims to do exactly what you said he told them not to…..kill others or “cast terror” onto them….however you want to phrase it.
Dude , i have said it to SOC and i m repeating it again. The problem is you can read a part of Quran and take it literally as a universal order ordained by God and to be implemented to the letter. However when you read with contextual explanation or tafseer thats when it makes more sense. Reading it without context is just like reading Latin because you are familiar with alphabets but you still don’t know the meaning.
Most of the time those suras or God’s message to muslims were revealed to give guidance on certain ocassions and not all of them are to be taken as is and applied blindly. The application of those suras is very mch subjective. But to see it in this way is more hard for people who, either like to make islam look more evil than other religions, use the suras to justify what would outrage anyone and doesn’t even make sense to most muslims(AQ and company) or just a plain fellow who would rather make his/her opnion based on literal translation than going to the trouble researching.
I’ll try and keep an open mind, but as of right now Islam, when I am pondering or what all is going on in the world, causes me more concern than anything I can think of. It flat out scares me in some cases.
I totally understand your point of you and it wudn’t even bother me if you dislike muslims or don’t have any high opinion of them. But then singling out Islam and Muslims as the sole root cause of every trouble on earth is unfair. As posted by others you ll find similar messages of wrath by God in christian text. But that is not held aginst them whenever for their actions(which may include violence). If a muslim who wants to live in peace and abhores the likes of AQ and Co. having same normal human aspirations as you or anyother normal person than it shouldn’t be hard for anyone to give him/her some space and cut some slack.
Here is the thing, most muslims do feel strongly about what goes on in middle east and other muslim nations but that doesn’t necessarily mean they love Osama Bin Laden or Musab Zaqawi who kill more muslims than non-muslims and justify it too. And certainly not because a sura (taken out of context) seems to be telling muslims to hate and kill non-believers.
That’s the great thing about this the country I live in though……those who wish to practice Islam are free to do so, and I’m free to practice my Christian faith (although I would hardly same I’m overly religious right now anyways.).
Indeed there are many great things about this country and i am totally grateful to this country for all those things that i too have expereinced. And it would hurt me or sadden me just as much if some ordinary person on the street gets hurt here in USA by some terrorist. But then that doesn’t mean i will agree with USA’s entire foriegn policy or all their actions. My dislike of those actions have got nothing to do with my faith (and i am hardly religious). Now what is really furstrating here is when people attribute my every other belief or opinion to my faith and what is in Quran regarding disbelievrs and such.
Islam has me so nervous though that I’m curious to learn more about where the hate stems from…..
Hate is a very human emotion, and i think it’ll be hard to find someone not capable of it. It cuts across all the boundaries of race and religion. Now i am not sure which episode of hate in islam or by muslims are we talking about here. But trust me hate is very much part of many sections of this very society here in US.
I know I’ll never be accepted by Muslims, but perhaps I can come to understand just why that will always be the case.
lol. first off you don’t need acceptance by anyone. As long as you don’t hate my guts for some obscure stereotype that you have in mind, i am more than willing to buy you cup of coffee discuss our opnions and respectfully disagree where i have to. That would certainly not involve me blowing stuff or you bombing me from the sky.
By: J Boyle - 6th December 2006 at 14:51
With the continuing rise in crime in this country, Islam may be the answer, to return Britain back to sanity. In my opinion we need stronger laws to protect the general public, from the present anarchy we see around us. I have lost all faith in this countries slack criminal laws, something needs to be done, or else Britain is heading for disaster. Islamization of Europe, may well save us, from our own destruction, by removing the barriers around us, that prevent Britain from being a civilised country.
_________________________________________________________________
I believe the “mainstream ” religions in the UK now: C of E; Roman Catholic, various protestant faiths, Hindu, etc, aren’t crazy about theft, murder, assault, public drunkeness, drugs, vandalism and various other social ills as described in this forum from time to time.
What makes you think a UK under Islam would be any different?
Why would people suddenly start to obey moral laws that they’ve increasingly ignored for tha last 50 years? Unless you think the religion would carry out some of the punishments given out elsewhere in the Islamic world.
If that’s your reasoning…you’ve made the case for those here who are frightened of the religion gaining a majority in Europe.
By: kursed - 6th December 2006 at 07:36
3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed.
So Allah refers to himself as “we”?
Allah refers to Himself as ‘We’, if the order would’ve been meant for the Muslims/Momin it’d have very directly said so.
By: kursed - 6th December 2006 at 07:32
Kill Christians:
5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
Kill Christians? Read this verse again and tell me where exactly God orders Muslims to do so? Firstly, you must understand that we strongly believe the words in the Qur’an to be the direct words of God Himself. He says that He will send down a painful doom on those who disbelieve. I don’t know how anyone could misinterpret such a straightforward verse. I could similarly quote a verse from the Bible and say that it sounds terrifying. Take a look at this verse:
“And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made the man.” (Genesis 9:5-6)
“Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.” (Isaiah 13:15-16)
“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)
People have made the mistake of haphazardly quoting verses from the Qur’an to justify their hatred against an otherwise quite peaceful religion. Before making claims such as “Islam promotes violence”, etc, one should do a little bit of research and use a logical mind to analyze verses from the Qur’an. Even we as Muslims ourselves are not capable of understanding the Qur’an unless we read it with the accompanying commentaries, etc, then how can someone who does not know Arabic, nor the context of the verses, nor the history of the compilation of the Qur’an simply flip through the Qur’an and find a verse that has the word “kill” or “doom” and start to run away with it on the internet?
If you really want to find out what Islam is all about, you need to have a clear judgment, keep your biases aside and seek proper knowledge instead of typing up ‘terror in Islam’, or ‘violence in Islam’ in Google. That’s certain to bring up a thousand similar websites of people who’ve done the same exact thing as you, and have posted it on their websites. If God really wanted Muslims to unite together and assault non-Muslims, then wouldn’t all Muslims be doing just that, just as the crusaders did when the Pope ordered the war against the ‘gentiles’?
Again, for an excellent explanation on the 9:123, one should visit the link that is provided here. How come no one reads through the verses where God warns us (Muslims), against transgression, such as the following:
“..Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” (al-An’am 6:151)
“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.” (al-Baqarah 2:190-194)
By: PhantomII - 6th December 2006 at 05:48
3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed.
So Allah refers to himself as “we”?
Sorry but you lost me on that one……..
Sounds to me like he’s telling Muslims to do exactly what you said he told them not to…..kill others or “cast terror” onto them….however you want to phrase it.
I’ll try and keep an open mind, but as of right now Islam, when I am pondering or what all is going on in the world, causes me more concern than anything I can think of. It flat out scares me in some cases.
That’s the great thing about this the country I live in though……those who wish to practice Islam are free to do so, and I’m free to practice my Christian faith (although I would hardly same I’m overly religious right now anyways.).
Islam has me so nervous though that I’m curious to learn more about where the hate stems from…..
I know I’ll never be accepted by Muslims, but perhaps I can come to understand just why that will always be the case.
By: Farooq - 6th December 2006 at 03:20
What about these:
What you totally ignored in your frenzy to post some more ‘evidence’ from quran was the point that i was making. Read again and try to see what i was saying.
i.e. islam is not different form other religions, specially christian judeo religions that precede it , in preaching or condoning ‘wrath’ and ‘mercy’ at the same time. So where do you disagree with me??
3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed.
This is God , talking to believers and promising that He will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. It’s not like God is telling muslims to do it for him. You should read up the rest of quran too. There are plenty of occasions which detail even more horrific end for people who indulge in anti-social activities (e.g being unfair in dealings,liar,backbiting,being cruel to weak and upsurpers of their rightful due ). Such is the tone of Quran and it’s suras, not just necisaarily against ‘unbelievers’.
But hey i guess that would be a lot of work for you to read up in right context than randomly nit pick verses!
4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil.
Again see it in the right context. The idol worshippers of Makkah who were doing everything to wipe out islam. After Makkah was conquered everyone was pardoned and noone was forced to accept islam (all the idols were removed from kaba though).
But even if you have used a wrong sura to make your point you might find more which will reinforce what you are saying (and i didn’t deny it either !!!)
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
Again see it in right context. Notice the word “enmity” there. There were divsions along religious and tribal lines. Blood fueds and alignments based on these lines. This seem to be saying that if people become your enemies again (and we are talking about the kind of enemies they had back then.lots of blood shed) then fight them or kill them and the rest. Do read up the history regarding the treatment meted out to the early muslims by these ‘enemies’.
So tell me what part is wrong here? If someone becomes your blood enemy again why is it a problem if you are allowed to attack em too?
4:91 Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
Again see the bold part. If someone has forsaken peace then you are allowed to kill them just as they desire to kill you.(and i m sure there is a context to this sura as well just like the others. it’s funny when people take them out of their historical context and quote them to make a point(propganda would be a better word ), muslims and non-muslims both )
This next one is good, it pretty much makes a Sunni-Shi’a civil war illegal:
4:93 Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is hell for ever.
But then again, you ll find people who will find reason even in branding fellow muslims as apostates and killing em. yours truly Abu-Musab and Co.
Kill Christians:
5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
God is warning against his wrath. You should read creafully i am sure you ll find better passages that you can make a point with.
By the way here is another one regarding Christians
Allah says in Surah 5, verse 82:
*{…and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe [to be] those who say: “We are Christians,” because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.}*
Do note that use of term “who believe” for christians and implictly for jews.
9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
Do you know when it was revealed? Cause i don’t know. If you read Quran then you are supposed to know when and on what occasion the sura was revealed. For example there is some sort of disagreement against a the treatment of a tribe and a sura would try to answer that. It wasn’t like in all cases others were treated harshly. There were times when ppl were treated with mercy. And i have been saying that al along. That you will find reference to both sorts of treatments. Now i don’t know what you are trying to prove by quoting all this cause that already shows what i have been saying all along (atleast a part of it)
Allah gave the Jewish people land:
10:93 And We verily did allot unto the Children of Israel a fixed abode, and did provide them with good things; and they differed not until the knowledge came unto them. Lo! thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they used to differ.
Should I continue?
Well there are alot of examples regarding Jewish people and Christians as people of the book. Examples that say these people choose to go astray from God’s path even though they were given all the blessings (fixed abode , God’s law etc).
What was your point by the way regarding this quote?
O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.
Surah 2 Verse 40
God did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of ‘Imran above all people,-
Offspring, one of the other: And God heareth and knoweth all things.
Surah 3 Verses 33-34
And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: “I will make thee an imam (religious leader) to the Nations.” He pleaded: “And also (imams) from my offspring!” He answered: “But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers.”
Surah 2 Verse 124
and then
…They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of God. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of God and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing.
Surah 2 Verse 61
But then Quran makes exceptions as well.
Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, “there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans).” but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.
Surah 3 Verse 75
By: Tigershark - 6th December 2006 at 03:05
What about these:
3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed.
4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil.
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
4:91 Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
This next one is good, it pretty much makes a Sunni-Shi’a civil war illegal:
4:93 Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is hell for ever.
Kill Christians:
5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
Allah gave the Jewish people land:
10:93 And We verily did allot unto the Children of Israel a fixed abode, and did provide them with good things; and they differed not until the knowledge came unto them. Lo! thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they used to differ.
Should I continue?
Bible can be anti semitic too..
Thessalonians 2:14-15:
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men.
…I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9.
Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Revelation 3:9.
…the Jews; who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16.
keep in mind it’s not the Muslims who gave the Jews the hardest times. Why did the Jews flock back to Palestine? Because of the Christian Nazis, and before them, and especially, policies by the Orthodox Russians on Ashkenazi Jews, and policies by Catholic Spaniards on the Sephardic Jews. Had they not resorted to such things, the Jews wouldn’t be such in a hurry to flee back to Palestine, and Palestine (and other Muslims) wouldn’t have much of an issue with the Jews.. they’d simply be fighting each other instead
By: SOC - 6th December 2006 at 01:19
Which goes to show that you can find quotes in the Bible just as easily as in the Qu’ran……..
You’re absolutely correct. That wasn’t my point though.
SOC your argument is deeply flawed; One could find just as many objectionable verses in the Bible, one can also find passages of great compassion and mercy in the Koran – have you ever read it? I did for my degree and your selective quotation is highly unrepresentative.
You’re also correct about the Bible and the mention of mercy in the Koran. But you can’t dispute the fact that the passages I quoted do seem to desire to foster viloence against non-Muslims. As someone who has apparently given this a greater degree of attention than I have due to your degree, what is your opinion of the passage regarding Allah granting the Jews land to reside on in light of the Arab-Israeli conflict?
By: joey - 5th December 2006 at 21:18
I would like to make some points here.
1> Each religion has goods and bads, when others recognises it and moves on why cant Islam in its true sense recognize “yes there are certain flaws”, even if some liberal muslim does mullahs prevents it, who will reform the mullahs?
2> Shariat is unacceptable, Muslims may shy away from it as much as they want but frankly speaking its not possible for them to go without it as it is a aprt of quran, now who will reform such thing?
3> If you dont believe me ask your local mullah Islam and Secularism are totally diff ideas and dont go by same to same, where its islam its islam no secularism now even if amny muslim supports secularism who will guarantee the same will happen once a society becomes muslim dominated? just like happning in thailand :confused:
roscoria your making a mistake, there is not problem in islam in buddhism but that shud not come at the cost of secularism, and freedom by any means.
i’m sure peoples wont like a society where girls are portrayed half as capable as man.
There are numerous bad practices in every religion, many religion have corrected it islam didnt.
do we see the same in christians we saw in 15th century christians?
but we do see the same in islam.
peoples call it is pure so its unchanged which is just a excuse.
I support every religion bar the ones that changes a society and makes rules which changes the freedom of man and democracy.
By: Tony - 5th December 2006 at 20:45
And what about these?
Matthew 12:30: He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. (This one sounds very familiar, for some reason…… 😉 )
😀 😀 😀
By: Grey Area - 5th December 2006 at 19:50
And what about these?
Exodus 15:3: The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
Exodus 22:24: And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.
Numbers 33:51: Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
Leviticus 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
Deuteronomy 7:2: And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them.
Deuteronomy 7:16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them :
2nd Chronicles 15:13: That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Joshua 10:40: So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.
Matthew 12:30: He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. (This one sounds very familiar, for some reason…… 😉 )
Which goes to show that you can find quotes in the Bible just as easily as in the Qu’ran…….. :rolleyes:
By: megalith - 5th December 2006 at 12:20
Sealordlawrance
If you bother to actually read my post you will find that I am NOT excusing violence, and certainly not in terms of ancient scriptures. What I am doing is exploring the reasons behind atrocities commited by both sides.
Only by understanding the root causes can this problem be solved – in the same way that you can only fix a car if you understand its mechanics! Any form of dogmatic approach (ie Christianity/Islam/Hinduism is pure good or evil) rules out compromise and stunts understanding, thus increasing the risks of violent responses and aggrevating human suffering.
SOC your argument is deeply flawed; One could find just as many objectionable verses in the Bible, one can also find passages of great compassion and mercy in the Koran – have you ever read it? I did for my degree and your selective quotation is highly unrepresentative.
Steve.
By: Avgas - 5th December 2006 at 11:45
With the continuing rise in crime in this country, Islam may be the answer, to return Britain back to sanity. In my opinion we need stronger laws to protect the general public, from the present anarchy we see around us. I have lost all faith in this countries slack criminal laws, something needs to be done, or else Britain is heading for disaster. Islamization of Europe, may well save us, from our own destruction, by removing the barriers around us, that prevent Britain from being a civilised country.
_________________________________________________________________
You may well have a point there but the downside is that alcohol will be banned and all the pretty girls with be covered up!
By: SOC - 5th December 2006 at 08:29
Just like any religion , it’s history and it’s followers, specially like the other two judeo christian religions you will find both examples of mercy and wrath.
What about these:
3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed.
4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil.
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
4:91 Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
This next one is good, it pretty much makes a Sunni-Shi’a civil war illegal:
4:93 Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is hell for ever.
Kill Christians:
5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
Allah gave the Jewish people land:
10:93 And We verily did allot unto the Children of Israel a fixed abode, and did provide them with good things; and they differed not until the knowledge came unto them. Lo! thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they used to differ.
Should I continue?
By: roscoria - 5th December 2006 at 07:15
Anarchy rules in Britain.
With the continuing rise in crime in this country, Islam may be the answer, to return Britain back to sanity. In my opinion we need stronger laws to protect the general public, from the present anarchy we see around us. I have lost all faith in this countries slack criminal laws, something needs to be done, or else Britain is heading for disaster. Islamization of Europe, may well save us, from our own destruction, by removing the barriers around us, that prevent Britain from being a civilised country.
_________________________________________________________________
By: Farooq - 5th December 2006 at 06:45
My problem with Islam is not that it condones terrorism which I don’t think it does.
What it does do is preach intolerance for others…..including Christians as well as those of the Jewish faith…
There are many passages that seem to promote the punishment of those who are not believers in the Islamic faith.
Take, for example Sura 9:29 which states:
You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth – among those who received the scripture – until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.
Of course that’s translated into English, but what does it say to those who practice the Islamic faith? It sounds like it’s telling them to fight against those who are non-believers and that Islam is the only religion of truth.
Doesn’t sound like its the tolerant religion that some would claim to me…..
I would never disrespect a Muslim because of the religion they preach nor would I ever harm a Muslim because of that faith, but I must admit I’m quite alarmed at just what the true meaning is within the Islamic faith….
It makes me quite nervous….
http://www.submission.org/suras/sura9.htm – Translation link
Phantom,
There are a lot of ways you can interpret what you have quoted as above. In the very begining it seems to be saying ‘fight back’ and not attack. In the early stages of Islam there was alot of warfare within the region where Islam first took shape. Alot of that included various jewish tribes who happened to be on the other side of muslims and their allies. This is mostly directed towards them.
Then it seems to be talking about ‘jizia’ or tax that was imposed on all non-muslims in return for their protection guarantees and exclusion from compulsory military duty. Now you can certainly take issue with the imposition of jizia but it’s certainly not punishment for not believing.
Just like any religion , it’s history and it’s followers, specially like the other two judeo christian religions you will find both examples of mercy and wrath.
In the end , religion(which includes all religions) or no religion man will find a way to justify their violence and not all the time will it be justifiable.
By: PhantomII - 5th December 2006 at 05:17
My problem with Islam is not that it condones terrorism which I don’t think it does.
What it does do is preach intolerance for others…..including Christians as well as those of the Jewish faith…
There are many passages that seem to promote the punishment of those who are not believers in the Islamic faith.
Take, for example Sura 9:29 which states:
You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth – among those who received the scripture – until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.
Of course that’s translated into English, but what does it say to those who practice the Islamic faith? It sounds like it’s telling them to fight against those who are non-believers and that Islam is the only religion of truth.
Doesn’t sound like its the tolerant religion that some would claim to me…..
I would never disrespect a Muslim because of the religion they preach nor would I ever harm a Muslim because of that faith, but I must admit I’m quite alarmed at just what the true meaning is within the Islamic faith….
It makes me quite nervous….
http://www.submission.org/suras/sura9.htm – Translation link
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November 20, 2006 at 9:43 pm