Israel looking for troubles ?

Point regarding “paintball” guns – I suspect they were not going to be using them to redecorate the ship with Dulux…
These weapons could have been used to fire either CS gas ball or pepper ball, which is a less-lethal option for use in confined or crowded spaces.

I don’t know. Even ordinary paint ammo could have the desired effect on the tactical level. Showing what they could do to you if they wished, could be a great psychological point. They could switch to pepper or gas if they needed to escalate the level of force. If you are setting the pace of events, you have the luxury to try things out. The whole operation lacked proportion.

Point regarding “paintball” guns – I suspect they were not going to be using them to redecorate the ship with Dulux…
These weapons could have been used to fire either CS gas ball or pepper ball, which is a less-lethal option for use in confined or crowded spaces.

How praytell do you get a terrorist organization to stop terrorising?

It’s simple. By making that organization lose popular support on it’s local population. Denying the same population basic human rights and living standards is a step in the opposite direction. Read some history. Back in WW2, Nazi forces occupying Greece, were executing 10 civilians for every German soldier killed by rebels. Do you think that that measure did anything to suppress rebel forces? Or did it send masses to join the rebels with everyone else giving them full support?

This is not supported by fact. The Israelis were armed primarily with paintball guns (very easily identified in the videos) and some had personal sidearms (handguns) for emergencies. Upon landing on the deck the Israelis were attacked with the aforementioned weapons and I can stipulate that metal bars are quite lethal. Additionally the attackers on teh Turkish ship disarmed some of the Israelis and turned the captured pistols on them and wounded at least two of them.

Furthermore there are numerous photo’s of “wrist rocket” type slingshots and those too are quite lethal. It is patently obvious to anyone with a brain and the intellectual honesty to perceive the truth that the people on the ship were looking for a fight. Information has come out that many of them had written out their wills as well. So they knew what they were doing.

This is how a clever idea is ruined by poor planing. Using paintball guns against activists was brilliant. Imagine the scene. Daylight, the Israel navy ship sailing close to the aid ship, sending a boarding party by boat, while commandos on choppers shooting paintballs to anyone threatening the boarding party (like throwing stuff at them or moving around armed with sticks). And you can do it under live media coverage. You actually need media coverage for that. You are sending the message, that you are doing your job while showing restrain If despite the paintballs, the boarding party gets attacked (live, on Aljazeera), who can really blame you for using force. And then again, you use force with caution. You have all the time to do it right. A couple of soldiers thrown at sea is no reason to start shooting people. Give them some clear real ammo warning shots first. If they persist, use a sniper to lightly injure someone. Eventually you’ll get control of the ships.

Instead some wise guy, decides to have the whole operation in the middle of the night with commandos dropping on the ships out of the sky. Tell me Gary, what would you have thought it is going on, if you were on that ship. Soldiers dropping out of nowhere, at night and shooting people with something that looks like a gun? The element of surprise and confusion in enemy ranks are valid military tactics. Using those tactics when the “enemy” is civilians and you want to minimize all casualties, is plain STUPID.

Last, I agree with bluewings, at least in the spirit of his posts. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict goes on for so long, that BOTH sides are runned by extremists. The ones that pay the price though, are the innocent ordinary people both Israeli and Palestinian. I think that it is time for the rest of the world, to show some real teeth at both of their leaderships.

The last time I checked Israel voluntarily gave up Gaza and turned over control to the Palestinans. The Palestinan terrorist organisations then proceeded to fire upwards of 7,000 rockets from Gaza into Israel. How praytell do you get a terrorist organization to stop terrorising?

Bob , I am going to follow Grey Area ‘s advice and I ‘m not going to respond to your post , even if I wish that I could . I am sorry .

But 2 things needs to be clarified :

-1) While I was indeed in the French Special Forces in 1985 , I did NOT participate . The Op was undertaken by DGSE personals and NOT by any Commando Units .
-2) I use “We” instead of “them” (the French) because I accept what my Gov did .
If you want to go further on , PM me or just let it go 🙂
*************************
J Boyle , thank you for the link but it doesn ‘t change a thing , really .
Only 3 facts remains :
-1) No weapons usable by Hamas have been found on the ships
-2) No one on board the ships was a “terrorist“
-3) Yes , it was a strong political move 😉

From there on , Israel can be blamed and it was most probably the secondary goal of the Convoy . They did very well on both accounts , it has to be said and noted .

To me it also shows 3 more things :
-1) Mossad didn ‘t have a clue
-2) Bad decision from the Israeli Gov
-3) Atrocious “assault” from the Israelis (if one can call such ****-up an assault :mad:)

Israel only let through 20% of the total needs to Gazza . Only 81 products are on the “Green” list . I could post what can go into Gazza and what cannot , you would be very surprised but it is not the topic .
Gazza is nothing else but a huge concentration camp , left on its own with only organisations like the Red Cross (and many others) and the pseudo good will of Israel to die slowly .
Without the tunnels and the help from Egypt , the Gazza people would be dying by hundreds right now .
That would give place for the Israeli colons …

Gentlemen , keep in mind that I am for Justice and my only flag is the French flag .
It is about time to force Israel to give up on Gazza and find a way to the problem .
Just my 2 Euros …

Cheers .

If the ship’s crew were beating the Israelis with metal poles and other basic weapons it was simply in self defence against the many Israeli soldiers boarding their boats armed with sophisticated firearms. The allegation being made by Israel that their soldiers killed 9 people on board the boat in ‘self defence’ is simply a desperate effort to explain away a serious mistake by the IDF, I just hope they are made to say sorry and admit their mistake!

As for “If it were our Marines, we would be backing them all the way”, I for one would be just as critical if it were our Marines. As some members of this forum know, I certainly do not shy away from criticising HM’s Forces.

This is not supported by fact. The Israelis were armed primarily with paintball guns (very easily identified in the videos) and some had personal sidearms (handguns) for emergencies. Upon landing on the deck the Israelis were attacked with the aforementioned weapons and I can stipulate that metal bars are quite lethal. Additionally the attackers on teh Turkish ship disarmed some of the Israelis and turned the captured pistols on them and wounded at least two of them.

Furthermore there are numerous photo’s of “wrist rocket” type slingshots and those too are quite lethal. It is patently obvious to anyone with a brain and the intellectual honesty to perceive the truth that the people on the ship were looking for a fight. Information has come out that many of them had written out their wills as well. So they knew what they were doing.

The Israelis are attempting to interdict weapons and rockets being smuggled into Gaza. They are using a blockade to accomplish this. Blockades have been used by virtually every maritime nation to accomplish their goals and I am sure I need not relate Great Britains many uses of blockades over the centuries to make my point.

The argument that the convoy was neccessary for humanitarian purposes is false in every way. Egypt has been providing needed supplies from the beginning.

While I certainly do not approve of many things the Israelis have done over the decades they have a fundamental right to protect themselves and their citizens and this was a clear act of provocation on the part of the Turks and Hamas.

The Times said this…

The IHH, which Israel says has links with the Palestinian group Hamas, first gained attention in the 1990s. Jean-Louis Bruguière, a French investigating magistrate and an authority on counter-terrorism, has said that in the mid-1990s the group’s leader, Bulent Yildirim, made efforts to “recruit veteran soldiers in anticipation of the coming holy war. In particular, some men were sent into war zones in Muslim countries in order to acquire combat experience”.

Mr Bruguière testified at the US trial of Ahmed Ressam, dubbed the Millennium Bomber, that the IHH had played an important role in a failed plot to bomb Los Angeles airport.

A 2006 report by the Danish Institute for International Studies described the group as a front for funding terrorist organisations and sending Mujahidin to fight in countries such as Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya. The IHH, which is not on US or European terrorist lists, denies accusations of ties to terrorist groups.

The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Centre (ITIC) — an Israel-based NGO with close ties to the country’s military — does not dispute the IHH’s legitimate philanthropic activities, but it says it is an overt supporter of Hamas, branded by Israel, the EU and US as a terrorist organisation. The ITIC says it has evidence that the IHH has helped to provide weapons and funds for Islamic terrorist groups in the Middle East.

In other words, there is enough reason to cast doubt on the IHH’s story.

And blockades have long been used…without a declaration of war…the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 comes to mind.

Full story:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7142977.ece

Moderator Message

Ahem…..

Can we please discuss the subject at hand, rather than one another?

I hoped it would be possible for us to have a sensible and reasonable discussion on this subject, without the posturing and stereotyping that so often bedevils threads like this.

Please don’t disappoint me!

Thanks

GA

Nevertheless , we are talking about a totally different situation . France could have fired on the Rainbow Warrior on multiple occasions when it entered National and restricted waters around Moruroa atoll .
We did not .
We decided to sink it in the port of Auckland .
One only death because the man did returned to film the damage :

“”Agents had boarded and examined the ship while it was open to public viewing. The agents attached two limpet mines to the ship and detonated them 10 minutes apart at around 11:45 p.m. Agents intended the first mine to cripple the ship so that everybody would be evacuated safely off when the second mine was detonated. The ship sank four minutes after the second explosion.

However, the crew did not react to the first explosion as the agents had expected. While the ship was initially evacuated, some of the crew returned to the ship to investigate and film the damage. A Portuguese-Dutch photographer, Fernando Pereira, returned below decks to fetch his camera equipment. He drowned in the rapid flooding that followed the second blast. The other ten crew members were either safely evacuated on the order of Captain Peter Willcox or were thrown into the water by the second explosion.””

We took every precaution to not cause any casualties , knowing that local Medics would be on site in matter of minutes . It was a deserved punishement (sinking the ship) for breaching French AND International Laws .
An illegal act , sure , but one have to understand that the Rainbow Warrior was flying non-governmental colors (private ship) and can ‘t be considered an act of war .

Cheers .

We, we, we? What , were you actually involved in planning the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior?
And is the death of only one man, trying to retrieve the equipment he probably relied on to make his living, any more or less acceptable than the death of the nine in this incident?
The sinking of the Rainbow Warrior was a deliberate act of government sponsored sabotage. The DGSE agents planted explosives – they sneaked in covertly, set the timers, then left.

“It was a deserved punishement (sinking the ship) for breaching French AND International Laws .“

What? That comment is totally unbelievable – sinking a ship is deserved? (shakes head in disbelief)

However, the crew did not react to the first explosion as the agents had expected.
Heavens above! Maybe they reacted to try and save their ship? Probably like many crews might try to do.

Did Israel act within the law boarding this ship? Maybe. Maybe not. But why no complaints against Egypt, who are also blockading Gaza? Maybe because that doesn’t fit in with anti-Israeli bashing…:mad:

Comet :

Like the appalling act committed by your country (I see from your location that you are in France) against the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland? Innocent people were killed on that, I find that inexcusable.

Like EGPH said , it is somehow uncalled for .
Nevertheless , we are talking about a totally different situation . France could have fired on the Rainbow Warrior on multiple occasions when it entered National and restricted waters around Moruroa atoll . We did not .
We decided to sink it in the port of Auckland .
One only death because the man did returned to film the damage :

“”Agents had boarded and examined the ship while it was open to public viewing. The agents attached two limpet mines to the ship and detonated them 10 minutes apart at around 11:45 p.m. Agents intended the first mine to cripple the ship so that everybody would be evacuated safely off when the second mine was detonated. The ship sank four minutes after the second explosion.

However, the crew did not react to the first explosion as the agents had expected. While the ship was initially evacuated, some of the crew returned to the ship to investigate and film the damage. A Portuguese-Dutch photographer, Fernando Pereira, returned below decks to fetch his camera equipment. He drowned in the rapid flooding that followed the second blast. The other ten crew members were either safely evacuated on the order of Captain Peter Willcox or were thrown into the water by the second explosion.””

We took every precaution to not cause any casualties , knowing that local Medics would be on site in matter of minutes . It was a deserved punishement (sinking the ship) for breaching French AND International Laws .
An illegal act , sure , but one have to understand that the Rainbow Warrior was flying non-governmental colors (private ship) and can ‘t be considered an act of war .

Cheers .

From the picture of the first commandos landing on the ship ,it looks like they had paintball guns??? what were they?

I simply cannot stand people who hold things people’s countries have done against individuals i.e your French so you have this action against you, your Israeli so you have this action against you etc. etc.

I am British but if I have everything Britain has done held against me I would be evil, centuries of oppression of many countries against me!

What Israel did is at best an act of piratery , at worse a declaration of war . It is an unqualifiable act anyway .
Saying that the act of piratery was badly planned and executed in the worse manner is correct and shows incompetence but it is not important . What is important is the act itself .

Like the appalling act committed by your country (I see from your location that you are in France) against the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland? Innocent people were killed on that, I find that inexcusable. That happened because they objected to your country using the South Pacific as a nuclear testing ground.

Grey Area :

Does Israel – or any other nation, for that matter – actually have any authority over the movements of civilian vessels under way in international waters?

No , none whatsoever .
The only case where a civilian vessel can be stopped in International waters is on the demand of the UN or Interpol , as long as a “Red Notice” has been issued or a “Interpol-United Nations Security Council Special Notice” .

Cheers .

Regarding mention of warnings to change course, etc….

Does Israel – or any other nation, for that matter – actually have any authority over the movements of civilian vessels under way in international waters?

Well I don’t know what the facts are as I read on the BBC that at least some of the Israeli soldiers were armed with assault rifles.

I am certainly not wanting to stand up for the aid flotilla or the IDF as I think the whole situation could have been handled differently by either side. I recently saw on the BBC site that the IDF claim they gave repeated warnings over 4 hours to the ship not to continue its present heading and to turn back and the ship ignored those warnings, which they shouldn’t have. I also think it was completely wrong and counter-productive for the ship’s passengers to respond as violently as they did. However I would expect better of the IDF and perhaps when faced with basic weapons could have handled things differently, they should have boarded expecting resistance to their presence and briefed accordingly. It will be interesting to hear the results of the inquiry as to in what circumstances those that were killed were shot.

So I would not like to be seen to be taking sides here as I think there were rights and wrongs on both sides, however the more I look into it the more wrongs I see on the aid flotilla’s side

EDIT:

Here are a few interesting links:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10215319.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10203054.stm

Bluewings: Obama may react in “a strong manner.” .
He has proven himself no friend of Israel…despite the propaganda spread around the world that “The Jews” run Washington.

Right now, American liberals (Jews included) as well as most blacks and others (the Arab/Muslim lobby, etc) have bought into the Palestinian argument. As former President Carter’s recent book makes clear, a lot of liberals see Israel as the “bad guy”.

From what I’ve read…
The Israelis were armed only with sidearms.
The people aboard the boat knew they were coming aboard becasue of their refusal to stop for the Israeli blockage of ships to the area being checked for weapons…so it was hardly a surprise.
Ships have been stoppped in the area (by Israel and Egypt, IIRC) for quite awhile.

By refusing to stop it looks like the ship and its passengers could have been looking/hoping for a confrontation. Either they get through or Israel stops them. If they force the issue causing casualties there would be…as has been seen…a huge proaganda boost. Nothing plays better in the Islamic world than a few martyrs. And the anti-semites of Europe and the mid-east are eating up the story as told from the Palestinian perspective.

If there were casualties, it would be very bad for Israel coming from a Turkish ship since the US is keen to keep Turkey as an ally…putting more pressure on Obama.

There is more to this than just their side of the story.

benyboy :

The video footage clearly shows the ships crew beating the Israeli forces with metal bars, setting them on fire, throwing them over board.

Yes and rightly so . This is what many don ‘t want to understand .
It was their right and duty to do so against an act of piratery or an act of war .

EGPH :

Israel simply cannot be militarily defeated, not by Egypt, Turkey, Syria and any other countries combined.

Of course Israel can be defeated , I can ‘t see any decent reason why they couldn ‘t be defeated . But again , this is not the primary goal .

What needs to happen is for the US to say enough is enough and force Israel, through the threat of cuts to their military hand-outs to sit down with the Palestinians and broker a mutually acceptable deal. I do not think the State of Israel should disappear entirely however the Palestinians must have a homeland over which Israel can exercise no control. It won’t happen overnight but I believe it is possible.

I agree but I also believe that Obama will not act in such strong manner . So , who will do the job ?

Cheers .

If the ship’s crew were beating the Israelis with metal poles and other basic weapons it was simply in self defence against the many Israeli soldiers boarding their boats armed with sophisticated firearms. The allegation being made by Israel that their soldiers killed 9 people on board the boat in ‘self defence’ is simply a desperate effort to explain away a serious mistake by the IDF, I just hope they are made to say sorry and admit their mistake!

As for “If it were our Marines, we would be backing them all the way”, I for one would be just as critical if it were our Marines. As some members of this forum know, I certainly do not shy away from criticising HM’s Forces.