Israel vs Palestine

skythe:

“20 attempted suicide bombings since October 4th. Those are the numbers presented by the Shin Bet chief in the Knesset a few days ago. See this. Take a look at the last paragraphs, no apologies for our own scum.”

ok, nice to see some numbers, but that by itself is still unconclusive. before the wall went up, what was the average number of attempted suiced bombing pervented by the IDF? what were the number of attampts and attacks at this time last year? the ‘success’ of the fence/wall could still just be the result of reduced activities by attackers.

also, since ‘around 70% of suicide bombers are israeli arabs living within israel’, who does a fence stop them? (yeah of course the fence can make it more difficult to get the explosive belts into israeli territory, but it is still reletively easy to do so, expecially if the belts are sent as parts instead of assmbled units, so little effect there.)

“I could not care less. There was a point in time the Nazi party spoke for Germans. Doesn’t give it the slightest bit of legitimacy.”

thats a common misconception of many westerners. the Nazi party WAS the legitimate ruling government for germany before and during the WWII period. that is a fact. hitler was voted into office by legitimate democratic process and he enjoyed an approval rating that would put most other elected leaders to shame. its just sad that ppl are so affraid of the truth that they have to distort the facts and even lie to protect their own dream reality of what the world can be like. 🙁

as for whether or not arafat is still in touch with popular palestinian opinion, well i would think that is sth an jew should pay great attention to. especially so if my suspitions are right (that popular palestinain opinion is more radical then the current palestinian autority).

“Besides, the Palestinian Authority is recognized world over as the sole represetative of the Palestinian people. in Europe, in the Arab World, in the US and in the UN. It is not unreasonable to ask them to abide by the agreements they have signed.Either that or step down. Neither Israel, nor anyone else, has to sort out the various Palestinian factions and decide who this week’s representative is.”

so now ‘democracy’ and ‘the will of the ppl’ no longer have any meaning when it comes to the palestinians? :rolleyes:

if arafat is out of touch with popular palestinian opion, then his grip on power would weaken with time. if i am right and he is actally representing the less radical side of palestinian opion then that is even more reason for israel to help arafat stay in power, because if his government falls, it could be replaced by an even more anti-jewish group, and then it would be much much harder for peace to come to the middle east!

“But there has to be a reciprocal effort. Without the Palestinians beginning to show the slightest effort, which to this point they haven’t, Israeli concessions will be short-lived.”

please do not pretend like its only israel that has made ‘good will’ guestures and attempts towards peace. and when u’re going through all the palestinain ‘attempts’ towards peace to ‘prove’ how they were only ‘staged to releave international pressure’ and how they weren’t ‘sincere’, just try and used the same spectical reasoning to examin all of israel’s ‘consessions’.

the scare in the hearts of jews and arabs was not carved in a day, so wouldnt it seem ‘hopeful’ to expect it to heal in a day? there are and always be synics and secptics on both sides, any move by one side towards peace will always to look upon in the worst possible light by those ppl. if u do not have enough patients and give up too soon, then u will only ‘prove’ those ppl right and make it harder for the masses to keep faith with u the next time.

“You repeatedly expect the addressing of Palestinian grievances. But those cannot come at the expense of Israeli interests, first and foremost our own safety. “

safety i agree with, but u wouldnt give up a tiny bit of israeli interests to benefit the arabs a great deal? god knows who this thing keeps on escalating.:rolleyes:

“What’s the point in releasing prisoners, like the 300 released 3 month ago, if nothing is done to prevent them from resuming their old habits of shooting up motorists?”

well i doubt that ‘concession’ threatened israeli security that much. the vast majority of those 300 prosioners were schedualed to be realesed soon anyways, and many is not most were detained under questional circumstances and for very little reason to begin with.

“Right, you mean like Rabin who signed the Oslo accords, who allowed the creation of a Palestinian Authority, a creation of a 45,000 strong armed police force, and all he got in return is repeated suicide bombings of Israeil buses? Rabin and later his successor Peres did not halt negotiations after each attack. No, they pleaded, begged with the Palestinian Authority to do something about the Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and all they got in return was the finger. Did you know, Plawolf, that after the assassination of Rabin in November 1994, Peres enjoyed such popularity that despite a in which year he could have held in office he opted for early elections in April 1995? He would have won, if not for three suicide bombers in March which killed 60 Israeli, and his support with them. It is a naive mistake to think that all it takes is just giving a little more, that this would be all it takes for peace to arrive. Your suggestions are nothing more than wishful thinking, a politically correct illusion that people will “see the light” if only they were given a chance. There is a name for that, it’s called appeasement. It doesn’t work. “

:rolleyes: gezz. might i suggest u read more carefully form now on? did u miss the part where is said that ‘israeli needs to respond aggressively to attacks’?

is it so hard for u lot to just take the middle line instead of jumping from one extreme to the other? 🙁

“Terrorism does not spring out of the ground, it is the work or rational calculating men, who decide to undertake in murder. There are a lot of desperate people on this planet, but most of those that kill themselves don’t do it with a whole host of others.”

instead of making already desperate ppl even more desperate and angery, wouldnt trying to give them a little hope and justice work better? i thought it would have been common knowlegde by now that if u want to make a wolf into a dog, u dont force him into a corner and poke him with a stick. u give him food, but beat his a$$ when he thinks he’s the boss and asks for too much, u do that over a period of time and he’ll learn. and thats just how u deal with an animal, humans usually learn much quicker. :rolleyes:

“Your poor, pitiful suicide bomber does not wake up one day to find an explosive belt has suddenly sprouted out of the ground. It takes someone to assemble the bomb, someone to fund it, someone to recruit the bomber, someone to train him, someone to chose the target, someone to transport him across the border, and finally someone to grlorify him and set the stage for the next attack. None of these are so “desperate” to kill themselves, are they? These men have to be fought, there is no alternative, they will not disappear into thin air just because we will it. “

again, ur missing the point, and by a long way at that. all the points i suggested is intended to work on the suicide bombers to be, not the orgainisers. sure there are alot of ‘die hards’ out there who will never be statified, but they are still the manority. the ‘footsoilders’ – the ppl that do all the fighting and dying, want alot less. even if u cant satify all their wants, all u need is to give them some hope and lot of them will not be so willing to die – because they can and will cling onto the hope that there is another way of getting what they want without needing to die.

without the ppl willing to fight and die, the ‘die hards’ wont be able to get much done themselves. thats how terriorst orgs like the IRA can be defeated.

“Again, wishful thinking. Hizbullah is still around because it is unwilling to relinquish it’s power. Israel withdrew from South Lebanon nearly four years ago, and yet the Lebanese army has yet to deploy to South Lebanon because of the Hizbullah. What “underlying grievences” does it serve? The Shebba Farms? Don’t make me laugh, a meaningless piece of land one could cross in 5 minutes and which even the UN has certified Israel is currently under no obligation to turn over to Lebanon. Oh no, the Hizbullah wants to mold Lebanon the way it sees fit, and that’s why it’s still around.”

and how many suicide bombings do hizbullah conducted? like u said, they have their own motives and goals, they are just using the palestinain cause as a flag to draw in supporters. the reason they can do that is because there is a cause that ppl are willing to fight and die for. but if u show the ppl that they can achieve their goal throw peaceful means without needing to risk life and limb, most would just stay home and not get involved. without supporters willing to die, hizbullah will no longer have a reason to fight israel. it will move on to sth different.

lets get one thing straignt here, im not suggesting a way to defeat galobal terrisim, just giving u a suggestion of how israel can reduce the effectiveness of terrism in its territory and hopefully forve it to find another flag.

“Allow me to return to pre-independece Israel. Do you know how the Irgun finally ceased to exist? Even with the declaration of Israeli independence and the formation of the IDF, the supposed addressing of its grievances, the Irgun refused to break up. Shortly later an Irgun weapons ship by the name of Altalena docked at the beach. In a show off between an IDF force (incidently led by Rabin) and the Irgun, the IDF sunk the ship, killing 19 people. All this was done while the Egyptian army was closing on Tel Aviv, and the IDF needed both the men and equipment. Thus came end of the Irgun. Thus Ben Gurion established a single force under a single command under a single government. The disarmament of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad are first and foremost in interest of any sane individual who wishes both the promotion of peace and the establishment of a free Palestinian society. “

forgive me for being synical, but that just seems like Rabin seizing an opportunity to take out a potential rival and secure his grip on power. :rolleyes: things like this happen all the time.

“Many people have suffered injustice. Very few of them kill themselves with a whole host of others. The fact that they find some urge “irresistable” means they should be locked up, that the entire infrastructure that allows they to carry out this sickness should be broken up.”

give me a break! u do realise that there are varying degrees of injustice right? its one thing to have u neighbour park on ur side of the driveway and quite another to have ur son shot in the streets for the sole reason of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. it u ask alot of the jewish settlers who have lost childern to suiced bombers, im sure u’ll find quite a few who find the notion of ‘getting their own back’ on palestinains ‘irresistable’, and suprise suprise, many of them may choose to join the IDF. should those ppl also be locked up and the IDF be broken up?:rolleyes:

“Yes, a way should be found to address legitimate grievances. This in no way means that Israel should accept a state whereby it’s citizens are deemed fair game. “

well, if u did adequetly address the legitimate gravences of the palestinians, then purhaps u’ll find that jews are no longer considered ‘fair game’ by them (the vast majority of them at least).

“What is the basis for that assertion? In the 27 years prior to the Oslo Accords and formation of the Palestinian Authority there was not one single suicide bombing. These begun only when Israel withdrew from Palestinian regions, only when at the helm of the Israeli government stoodf people who were all about giving Palestinians hope, people like Rabin, Peres and Beilin. You are watching the world through rose-tainted glasses. Suicide bombings begun not because the Palestinians were suddenly deprived of hope. On the contrary – the Hamas begun its terror campaign to deny the possiblity or reconciliation, to prevent peace, not to further its cause! Terrorism grew not because hope diminished, but in order to deny it. Even if you do believe that Israel has to address Palestinian grievances, there is no alternative to actively taking these people on. None. “

my my my, next u’ll be suggesting that all arabs be made to wear ‘the half-moon of mahamed’ and that they should be sent to camps where they can no longer pose a threat to no one but themselves……. sound familiar? :rolleyes:

do remeber who were living there before the ‘UN’ decided to establish the state of israel. the palestinains expected the world to give them back what was once their’s. they clinged onto that hope and endured for years, but after the oslo accourds they realised that they were never going to get what the expected. far from giving them hope, it destroyed any hope that was left in them.

there is prospect for peace today because after all these years, the palestinains realise that they will never get back everything that was taken from them, and now their expectations are much more ‘realistic’.

skythe, I’m also Israeli.
Sorry, I was very grumpy and tired.

Originally posted by plawolf
[B]
looking at half the picture would not help u get to the truth. sure, the israeli resistance’s actions were examplary after the bombing of the king david, but that is mostly because of the nature of the ‘provocating’ acts by the british military at the time. what did the british do to ‘provoke’ that attack? did they regularly go on rades in which israeli children were killed? did they ‘target assasinate’ israels at will?

[/B]

You obviously expect me to come to the defence of the perpertrators of the King David bombing. I don’t intend to.
Don’t let that fool you into thinking that I share you high regard of British mandate rule, though. We could go off topic and discuss the issue, one in which the British have nothing to be proud of (a minor example would be why Operation “Agatha” is locally remembered as “Black Sabbath”), but I bear the British no ill will and would rather not.

[B]
it is a good thing that few israelis have been killed in attacks lately, but that fact alone shows little. it would be more convincing if u could get stats showing the number of attempted attacks before and after to see if there has been a general fall in the effectiveness of attempted attacks, or just cos there isnt that many attempts lately.

[/B]

20 attempted suicide bombings since October 4th. Those are the numbers presented by the Shin Bet chief in the Knesset a few days ago. See this. Take a look at the last paragraphs, no apologies for our own scum.

[B]
and it has never come to ur mind that purhaps it is not the palastinian authority that represents the will of the palastinian ppl at the moment?

[/B]

I could not care less. There was a point in time the Nazi party spoke for Germans. Doesn’t give it the slightest bit of legitimacy. Besides, the Palestinian Authority is recognized world over as the sole represetative of the Palestinian people. in Europe, in the Arab World, in the US and in the UN. It is not unreasonable to ask them to abide by the agreements they have signed. Either that or step down. Neither Israel, nor anyone else, has to sort out the various Palestinian factions and decide who this week’s representative is.

[B]
it is unreasonable to expect israel alone to expect responsability and to resolve this problem. but there are also retional heads on the palastinain side, and they would start to play their part if israel just give them a little ‘ammunition’ to used against the radicals. yeilding nothing but demanding everything will not help them start to bring the palastinain side around.

it is also unreasonable to expect israel to give into the more radical demands of some militant organisations. however, it is not unreasonable, and even to be expected that irsael, and the IDF in particular, respect international norms and treat the palastinian ppl like human beings, instead of animals.

[/B]

You’re absolutely right, I do not disagree with the above. But there has to be a reciprocal effort. Without the Palestinians beginning to show the slightest effort, which to this point they haven’t, Israeli concessions will be short-lived. You repeatedly expect the addressing of Palestinian grievances. But those cannot come at the expense of Israeli interests, first and foremost our own safety. What’s the point in releasing prisoners, like the 300 released 3 month ago, if nothing is done to prevent them from resuming their old habits of shooting up motorists?

[B]
sigh,the reason israel should try to address the grevences of the palastinian ppl is because it is the only sure way of stopping the attacks, once and for all, not because the suicide bombers have won.

and its not hard to all go get that point across to the palastinains and the world if a couragouse israeli leader would dare to go down that path. all israel needs to do is to respond agressively to attacks, but also start to give concessions to groups who make their demands through peaceful channels, and also start to reform its own behaviour (like addressing some of the points i make above) when and only when there is a lull in attacks. carry the pattern for a while and palastinains will start to get the messaege – resort to violence and u will suffer, but if u restrain urselves and make ur requests in a civilised manner, then u will have a good chance of getting ur grevences heard and resolved.
like all human beings, palastinians love life, and would not be so willing to lay down their lives if they see that there is another way of getting what they want. (there might be a few extremists, yes, but without popular support, they will not be able to do much on their own).

[/B]

Right, you mean like Rabin who signed the Oslo accords, who allowed the creation of a Palestinian Authority, a creation of a 45,000 strong armed police force, and all he got in return is repeated suicide bombings of Israeil buses? Rabin and later his successor Peres did not halt negotiations after each attack. No, they pleaded, begged with the Palestinian Authority to do something about the Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and all they got in return was the finger. Did you know, Plawolf, that after the assassination of Rabin in November 1994, Peres enjoyed such popularity that despite a in which year he could have held in office he opted for early elections in April 1995? He would have won, if not for three suicide bombers in March which killed 60 Israeli, and his support with them. It is a naive mistake to think that all it takes is just giving a little more, that this would be all it takes for peace to arrive. Your suggestions are nothing more than wishful thinking, a politically correct illusion that people will “see the light” if only they were given a chance. There is a name for that, it’s called appeasement. It doesn’t work.
Terrorism does not spring out of the ground, it is the work or rational calculating men, who decide to undertake in murder. There are a lot of desperate people on this planet, but most of those that kill themselves don’t do it with a whole host of others.
Your poor, pitiful suicide bomber does not wake up one day to find an explosive belt has suddenly sprouted out of the ground. It takes someone to assemble the bomb, someone to fund it, someone to recruit the bomber, someone to train him, someone to chose the target, someone to transport him across the border, and finally someone to grlorify him and set the stage for the next attack. None of these are so “desperate” to kill themselves, are they? These men have to be fought, there is no alternative, they will not disappear into thin air just because we will it.

[B]
again, u r missing the point. Al-Qaida and Hizbullah has not disappeared because the governments they are targeting have not addressed the underlying grevences that would drive orginary men and wemon to the point where they would be willing to kill themselves just to get at u. other terriost organisations like the IRA have disappeared or been forced to the table because they no longer have enough die-hard supports they need, because the governments address the underlying problems and thus cut off the flow of fresh recruits that keep such organisations alive.

[/B]

Again, wishful thinking. Hizbullah is still around because it is unwilling to relinquish it’s power. Israel withdrew from South Lebanon nearly four years ago, and yet the Lebanese army has yet to deploy to South Lebanon because of the Hizbullah. What “underlying grievences” does it serve? The Shebba Farms? Don’t make me laugh, a meaningless piece of land one could cross in 5 minutes and which even the UN has certified Israel is currently under no obligation to turn over to Lebanon. Oh no, the Hizbullah wants to mold Lebanon the way it sees fit, and that’s why it’s still around.
Al-Qaida? They were set up to expel the Soviets from Afghanistan. They’re still around, the USSR isn’t. No, they did not disappear, they just chose a new cause. Now it’s “American Unilateralism” or “Arab Dictatorships” or “Imperialist Zionist Running Dogs”. Besides, is there anyone who would actually like to see the Al-Quida’s aspirations fulfilled? The fact that some would resort to “desperate” means does not make their cause legitimate, I could even argue the opposite. The Kamikaza were desperate too. Should the US the allies have stopped and begin thinking how to address Japanese grievances?
Allow me to return to pre-independece Israel. Do you know how the Irgun finally ceased to exist? Even with the declaration of Israeli independence and the formation of the IDF, the supposed addressing of its grievances, the Irgun refused to break up. Shortly later an Irgun weapons ship by the name of Altalena docked at the beach. In a show off between an IDF force (incidently led by Rabin) and the Irgun, the IDF sunk the ship, killing 19 people. All this was done while the Egyptian army was closing on Tel Aviv, and the IDF needed both the men and equipment. Thus came end of the Irgun. Thus Ben Gurion established a single force under a single command under a single government. The disarmament of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad are first and foremost in interest of any sane individual who wishes both the promotion of peace and the establishment of a free Palestinian society.

[B]
what, u think the average palastinain suicide bomber is killing himself only because he was ‘brainwashed’ by a hamas leader into thinking that he will go to paradice with a hundred beautiful virgins? he/she is doing it because they have witnessed and/or suffered great injustice at the hands of jews (most likely settlers or the IDF), but with things the way they are, they just cant see anything being done to give them justice. and with human nature being what it is, the erge to get ‘even’ may be irresitable.

[/B]

Many people have suffered injustice. Very few of them kill themselves with a whole host of others. The fact that they find some urge “irresistable” means they should be locked up, that the entire infrastructure that allows they to carry out this sickness should be broken up. Yes, a way should be found to address legitimate grievances. This in no way means that Israel should accept a state whereby it’s citizens are deemed fair game.

[B]
even if u only gave the palastinains a remote hope that their grevences will be addressed, then most will not be so quick to resort to suicide bombing.

[/B]

What is the basis for that assertion? In the 27 years prior to the Oslo Accords and formation of the Palestinian Authority there was not one single suicide bombing. These begun only when Israel withdrew from Palestinian regions, only when at the helm of the Israeli government stoodf people who were all about giving Palestinians hope, people like Rabin, Peres and Beilin. You are watching the world through rose-tainted glasses. Suicide bombings begun not because the Palestinians were suddenly deprived of hope. On the contrary – the Hamas begun its terror campaign to deny the possiblity or reconciliation, to prevent peace, not to further its cause! Terrorism grew not because hope diminished, but in order to deny it. Even if you do believe that Israel has to address Palestinian grievances, there is no alternative to actively taking these people on. None.

[B]
Well, that’s the opinion of me and the basic facts, ignore skythe’s neo-nationalist drivel.

[/B]

Yes, you and Viper would get along just great. I see you already follow his lead by assuming to know what I think and then proceeding to insult me. As long as you don’t also accuse me of something I’ve never actually done, we could get along just fine. May I be so enlightened (as opposed to my usual drivel) as point out that the King David bombing was in 1946, not 1948?

Thanks Barak :rolleyes:

Originally posted by starjet
ignore skythe’s neo-nationalist drivel.

And that’s based on? How good do you actually know him?

My opinion:

Palestinians deserve a state, if they stop terror and get Arafat in jail where he belongs. My friend is Palestinian, and he’s a normal person who wants peace, too. Arafat belongs in jail because he was totally corrupt and stole the Palestinians blind. Before Israel occupied the territories, Jordan had nothing to give the West Bank and Egypt didn’t give a sh*t about Gaza

Well, that’s the opinion of me and the basic facts, ignore skythe’s neo-nationalist drivel.

Barak:

“I do find a suicide bomber a coward. What is easier then make an end to a life you don’t ‘like’?? The brave ones try to make a better life fot themselves and keep on trying. Ending your own life is just a quick way out, nothin really couragous about that IMO.”

:rolleyes: get ur facts right before u make a conclusion. what, u think all the suicide bombers are poor, uneducated loosers with no future in life? give me a break. most of them are well educated, intellegent individuals with good jobs and everything to live for (including family and friends). its easy to die when u have nothing to enjoy and to look forward to in life, its quite a different story when u have a good education, a well paid job and a family.

“The fence: Why on earth should we build in along the green line? That would mean that the terrorist have what they want (i.e. a return to the green line) without anything in return. Next time they start bombing us, we should return to the ‘ 48 borders I presume, to make consesions and show our goodwill?”

and does playing ‘an eye for an eye’ with terrioists make u better then them? :rolleyes:

“As for the attempted attacks: Do you really, I mean REALLY believe they aren’t trying as hard as they can to kill Israelis? I will tell you one thing. The longer they aren’t succeeding in killing Israelis, the more determent they get.”

do u really, i mean REALLY just expect me to just take ur word for it? show me proof if u want to convince me of sth.

“The security forces have when it’s ‘quiet’ that is in a lull of attempted attacks about 15-20 warnings A DAY. When the situation is a bit more ‘active’ like it is now, they receive about 50 warnings a day. So you can’t say they aren’t trying. They are stopped most of the times, killed en route, captured en route, or because of the roadblocks, which are also INSIDE Israel!!!”

again, i want proof to show me how many terriosts were killed en route lately v before. and please lets only count the real terriosts and not just some jo that was shot by a nervous/trigger happy young conscrit. :rolleyes:

“when there is a hot terror allert, and the increased presence of security forces they return (couragous aren’t they ) “

say what? :confused:

“I wonder why it is that Israelis aren’t protesting the roadblocks inside Israel…”

might it be because they arent the ones being treated like criminal for no other reason then being of another race.:rolleyes:

I do find a suicide bomber a coward. What is easier then make an end to a life you don’t ‘like’?? The brave ones try to make a better life fot themselves and keep on trying. Ending your own life is just a quick way out, nothin really couragous about that IMO.

The fence: Why on earth should we build in along the green line? That would mean that the terrorist have what they want (i.e. a return to the green line) without anything in return. Next time they start bombing us, we should return to the ‘ 48 borders I presume, to make consesions and show our goodwill?

As for the attempted attacks: Do you really, I mean REALLY believe they aren’t trying as hard as they can to kill Israelis? I will tell you one thing. The longer they aren’t succeeding in killing Israelis, the more determent they get. The security forces have when it’s ‘quiet’ that is in a lull of attempted attacks about 15-20 warnings A DAY. When the situation is a bit more ‘active’ like it is now, they receive about 50 warnings a day. So you can’t say they aren’t trying. They are stopped most of the times, killed en route, captured en route, or because of the roadblocks, which are also INSIDE Israel!!! when there is a hot terror allert, and the increased presence of security forces they return (couragous aren’t they:rolleyes: ) I wonder why it is that Israelis aren’t protesting the roadblocks inside Israel…

viper:

“I did however use terms like the “nature of their resistance effort.” By that I meant to express the fact that these fractions employ methods which can not be regarded as legitimate.”

‘regarded as legitimate’ by whom exactly? the british were calling the american freedom fighters ‘pirates’ and ‘bandits’ cos they refused to stand in line and fight, as was the norm at the time.

the point im trying to make is not that i think sucide bombing will become the new way of fighting (god forbids!!), im just point out that its the most powerful that set the rules. like those at the top of the ‘food chain’ in the animal kingdom. and like the animal kingdom, it is the top preditor that stands to loose the most whenever there is a change in the ‘climate’, so they try to stop it, and a means to do that is to try to say, ‘no fair, ur not playing by the rules!’. like its fair that they made the rules to start with. :rolleyes:

(please dont get confused, im not trying to defend attacks on civilians, just pointing out that ‘unconvential’ warfare isnt as bad as some would like us to believe).

“However, in my opinion, only an active non-terrorist resistance effort in terms of i. e. militia operations can be regarded as a legitimate measure and should constitute the only alternative of armed resistance. That could at least help the Palestinians gain more sympathy and support. Terrorist actions such as suicide bombings do not serve a just purpose. As long as the Palestinian Autonomy is unable to prevent the different terrorist fractions from conducting their activities, peace with Israel will remain an illusion.”

again, i think its best to sperate the targets from the means of attack.

in my book, i would class deliberate attacks against unarmed civilians as acts of terrism, no matter what means are used to affect the ends (be it a suicide bomber or a million dollar guided missile). on the otehr hand, i would class attacks against military targets as legitimate resistance no matter what means are used to affect that end, (again, no difference between a suicide bomb or a ‘smat’ bomb).

skythe:

“OK, let’s talk about the Kind David, it’s actually a good example of why things can be done differently even when you’re weak. Following the bombing Ben-Gurion called these people the enemies of the Jewish people, the Yishuv leadership broke ranks with the Irgun and even turned some of its members over to the British. No glorification, no half-hearted condemnations, no football matches named after the perpretrators. When the Jewish Agency Executive met in Paris a short time later they in fact decided to end the armed struggle against the British, and the main Jewish armed group at the time, the Haganah, indeed ceased its armed struggle. Can you imagine a similar move on the part of the largest Palestinian group, the Fatah? I wish.”

looking at half the picture would not help u get to the truth. sure, the israeli resistance’s actions were examplary after the bombing of the king david, but that is mostly because of the nature of the ‘provocating’ acts by the british military at the time. what did the british do to ‘provoke’ that attack? did they regularly go on rades in which israeli children were killed? did they ‘target assasinate’ israels at will?

“Since the October 4th bombing of a restaurant in Haifa, no Palestinian terrorist has managed to exact large casualties on an Israel. It’s not because they’ve grown a conscience, it’s not because the Palestinian Authority suddenly begun cracking down on militants. Its because of ongoing IDF operations, it’s because the Hamas leadership no longer dares to make a public appearance unless sorrounded by a crowd of hundreds, and it’s because of the fence. Before operation “Defensive Shield” in April 2001, March 2001 saw more than 100 Israeli casualties. March 2003 saw less than a third of that. Call it vengence, whatever you like, the results speak for themselves.”

it is a good thing that few israelis have been killed in attacks lately, but that fact alone shows little. it would be more convincing if u could get stats showing the number of attempted attacks before and after to see if there has been a general fall in the effectiveness of attempted attacks, or just cos there isnt that many attempts lately.

“Of course, I expect no such thing from Hamas & co – I expect it of the Palestinian Authority. I expect nothing save what the agreements they have signed demand of them : the dismantling for terrorist organizations. You are aware that the UN backed RoadMap for Peace demands no less, without any preconditions, are you not?”

and it has never come to ur mind that purhaps it is not the palastinian authority that represents the will of the palastinian ppl at the moment?

like it or not there is great hatred of jews within the palastinian population, ignoring it will not make it go away. the reasons for this hatred is many and varied, but its is undeniable that the actions of the israeli armed forces played a major part in helping to create and deepen that hatred.

it is unreasonable to expect israel alone to expect responsability and to resolve this problem. but there are also retional heads on the palastinain side, and they would start to play their part if israel just give them a little ‘ammunition’ to used against the radicals. yeilding nothing but demanding everything will not help them start to bring the palastinain side around.

it is also unreasonable to expect israel to give into the more radical demands of some militant organisations. however, it is not unreasonable, and even to be expected that irsael, and the IDF in particular, respect international norms and treat the palastinian ppl like human beings, instead of animals.

is it unreasonable to demand that the IDF carry out proper investigations into incidents of shooting unarmed civilans and newscrews etc? is it unreaonsble to ask that a pregnant palastinan woman be allowed through checkpoints to go to hospital instead of being forced to give birth in the backseat of a car? is it unreasonable to ask the IDF not to open fire when it is only kids throwing stones at APCs? is it unreasonable to ask that the jewish police take action to stop israeli settlers going across into palastinain land to attack olive farms and robbing them of their fruit, and even destroying the trees? is it unreasonable to ask the IDF, IDFAF to stop using weapons designed to destroy tanks in dencely populated urban areas? if israel is set to build a ‘security fence’ is in unreasonable to ask that u at least build it on israeli land instead of fencing in even more palastinian land?

“They have no choice save murder? There does not exist any provision of international humanitarian law which permits armed groups and individuals to strike at civilians on the grounds that the armed forces of the enemy are too powerful to defeat in combat.”

i also strongly disagree with attacks on civilians, but its not like israel itself is the world’s leading follower of international laws and norms.

“Your notion that Israel should address Palestinian grievances because of suicide bombers is an absolute corruption of every moral law of war that humanity has worked for so long to formulate. It vindicates plain and simple murder, it absolves the Palestinians of every form of resposiblity and accountability for their actions. It negates dialogue as a method to resolve disputes, replacing it with the cruelest of methods. Worst of all, it will not bring peace. No sane government, no sane people, would surrender to tactics that are nothing short of blackmail. Because even if they will, all it would achieve would be the perpetuation of the conflict.”

sigh,the reason israel should try to address the grevences of the palastinian ppl is because it is the only sure way of stopping the attacks, once and for all, not because the suicide bombers have won.

and its not hard to all go get that point across to the palastinains and the world if a couragouse israeli leader would dare to go down that path. all israel needs to do is to respond agressively to attacks, but also start to give concessions to groups who make their demands through peaceful channels, and also start to reform its own behaviour (like addressing some of the points i make above) when and only when there is a lull in attacks. carry the pattern for a while and palastinains will start to get the messaege – resort to violence and u will suffer, but if u restrain urselves and make ur requests in a civilised manner, then u will have a good chance of getting ur grevences heard and resolved.

like all human beings, palastinians love life, and would not be so willing to lay down their lives if they see that there is another way of getting what they want. (there might be a few extremists, yes, but without popular support, they will not be able to do much on their own).

currently, the IDF is doing a good job of the ‘suffering’ part, but it has paid no attention whatsoever to the ‘addressing of grevences’ part, and thats why there is no sign of peace.

“For all your (misplaced) sympathy for the lone suicide bomber, the Hamas will not disappear of its own volition, just as Al-Qaida or the Hizbullah didn’t, and they will always find the poor unfortunate souls to prey upon. Terrorism doesn’t grow on trees, and it not an afflication that strikes the minds of the poor or repressed. It’s an active undertaking, willfully chosen by rational men to kill as many innocents as possible. And it’s so effective because it casts the criminal in the role of the victim, masking the fact that the real victims are the people who fell by this man hands. It is abhorable, regardless of the sorroundings.”

again, u r missing the point. Al-Qaida and Hizbullah has not disappeared because the governments they are targeting have not addressed the underlying grevences that would drive orginary men and wemon to the point where they would be willing to kill themselves just to get at u. other terriost organisations like the IRA have disappeared or been forced to the table because they no longer have enough die-hard supports they need, because the governments address the underlying problems and thus cut off the flow of fresh recruits that keep such organisations alive.

what, u think the average palastinain suicide bomber is killing himself only because he was ‘brainwashed’ by a hamas leader into thinking that he will go to paradice with a hundred beautiful virgins? he/she is doing it because they have witnessed and/or suffered great injustice at the hands of jews (most likely settlers or the IDF), but with things the way they are, they just cant see anything being done to give them justice. and with human nature being what it is, the erge to get ‘even’ may be irresitable.

even if that alone isnt enough to push someone over the edge (in most cases it wont), it would still help to make them much more serspetable to the redical views of some hamas members.

even if u only gave the palastinains a remote hope that their grevences will be addressed, then most will not be so quick to resort to suicide bombing. and what are the few radical hamas ‘elders’ going to do without ppl willing to do their bidding? will they go and do the job themselves? even if they do, it would still not be that bad for israel, as without these ppl, who will ‘brainwash’ other ppl into becoming suicide bombers? hell, it would probably even save the IDF the trouble of finding and killing them. so its a win-win situation for israel, the only problem is that it will be unpouplar with the voters and if results done show quickly, it may be the next israeli prime minister that reap the benefits. 🙁 sometimes democracy does have its drawbacks.

Originally posted by plawolf
its not like israelis never resorted to ‘unconvential’ means of getting what they wanted before the IDF was a force to be reconed with, a certain bombing of a british army headquarters comes to mind.

OK, let’s talk about the Kind David, it’s actually a good example of why things can be done differently even when you’re weak. Following the bombing Ben-Gurion called these people the enemies of the Jewish people, the Yishuv leadership broke ranks with the Irgun and even turned some of its members over to the British. No glorification, no half-hearted condemnations, no football matches named after the perpretrators. When the Jewish Agency Executive met in Paris a short time later they in fact decided to end the armed struggle against the British, and the main Jewish armed group at the time, the Haganah, indeed ceased its armed struggle. Can you imagine a similar move on the part of the largest Palestinian group, the Fatah? I wish.

cos by almost all accounts, most IDF opperations in palistinian territory after an attack on israel seems only to serve the pupose of vengence.

Since the October 4th bombing of a restaurant in Haifa, no Palestinian terrorist has managed to exact large casualties on an Israel. It’s not because they’ve grown a conscience, it’s not because the Palestinian Authority suddenly begun cracking down on militants. Its because of ongoing IDF operations, it’s because the Hamas leadership no longer dares to make a public appearance unless sorrounded by a crowd of hundreds, and it’s because of the fence. Before operation “Defensive Shield” in April 2001, March 2001 saw more than 100 Israeli casualties. March 2003 saw less than a third of that. Call it vengence, whatever you like, the results speak for themselves.

as u seem so convinced that organisations like hamas are only out to try to kill israelis, then wouldnt it seem stupid of israelis to expect hamas to make the first move towards true peace and coexistance?

Of course, I expect no such thing from Hamas & co – I expect it of the Palestinian Authority. I expect nothing save what the agreements they have signed demand of them : the dismantling for terrorist organizations. You are aware that the UN backed RoadMap for Peace demands no less, without any preconditions, are you not?

its not like these ppl have another choice, as ppl pointed out so clearly, not even all the arab nations in the area stand much of a chance against the IDF, so how much better would poorly trained molicia with almost no modern equipment fair?

They have no choice save murder? There does not exist any provision of international humanitarian law which permits armed groups and individuals to strike at civilians on the grounds that the armed forces of the enemy are too powerful to defeat in combat.

———————————

Look plawolf, I do get what you’re trying to say. Basically, it is that because Palestinians would resort to such tactics against Israel, this necessarily means that they are so desperate that their grievances should immediately be addressed, specifically by Israel. All of this I believe I have addressed before, wether to your satisfaction or not. I will tell you this though :

Your notion that Israel should address Palestinian grievances because of suicide bombers is an absolute corruption of every moral law of war that humanity has worked for so long to formulate. It vindicates plain and simple murder, it absolves the Palestinians of every form of resposiblity and accountability for their actions. It negates dialogue as a method to resolve disputes, replacing it with the cruelest of methods. Worst of all, it will not bring peace. No sane government, no sane people, would surrender to tactics that are nothing short of blackmail. Because even if they will, all it would achieve would be the perpetuation of the conflict. For all your (misplaced) sympathy for the lone suicide bomber, the Hamas will not disappear of its own volition, just as Al-Qaida or the Hizbullah didn’t, and they will always find the poor unfortunate souls to prey upon. Terrorism doesn’t grow on trees, and it not an afflication that strikes the minds of the poor or repressed. It’s an active undertaking, willfully chosen by rational men to kill as many innocents as possible. And it’s so effective because it casts the criminal in the role of the victim, masking the fact that the real victims are the people who fell by this man hands. It is abhorable, regardless of the sorroundings.

Are there Palestinian grievances that should be addressed by Israel. Yes there are. But these will never be addressed because of suicide bombings, only despite them.

For all those unaware, the British Army HQ bombing plawolf is refferring to is the bomb in 1948 that destroyed the southern half of the King David Hotel, which was the Army HQ in Israel, many died. Israel was then a British mandate

skythe:

“Some Palestinians feel they have suffered injustice. So what? Welcome to the club! We have our grievances too, shall I point fingers and begin demanding they be addressed as well? Or are the only ones who deserve justice those who would resort to the basest means? Palestinians’ notion of injustice do not in any way justify suicide bombings, nor do they automatically make it Israel’s responsibility and duty to address these grievances. “

well, it looks to me like its the ones who got the biggest guns that gets justice at the moment.

while it is true that to the normal person living in the west, sucide bombings can hardly be justified by injustice felt by the palastinians, but it is not the western world that israel needs to convince to try to put an end to the violence. u can play with word games and try to shift the blame all u want, but at the end of the day, it will not help israel one bit at all in terms of stopping sucide bombings.

as u seem so convinced that organisations like hamas are only out to try to kill israelis, then wouldnt it seem stupid of israelis to expect hamas to make the first move towards true peace and coexistance?
——————————————————————————–
viper

“Wuss, actually. Riiiight… The primary tactics employed by those terrorists (which is to dress in either civilian clothes or IDF uniforms in order to be able to infiltrate crowds and sneak in on their target(s)) strongly indicate the nature of their “resistance” effort. If you were referring to (uniformed) Palestinian gunmen, I would be able to understand your use of the term “freedom fighters.” I do not regard suicide bombers in disguise as legitimate fighting personnel, regardless of who or what they direct their attacks against. “

well its seems strange to question the courage of a person who is just abt to kill himself in order to get the ‘enemy’.

its not like these ppl have another choice, as ppl pointed out so clearly, not even all the arab nations in the area stand much of a chance against the IDF, so how much better would poorly trained molicia with almost no modern equipment fair?

dressing up in disguses is the only way they can have a chance to get at their targets (whether these targets are legitimate is another matter). its not unlike military camoflage. u might as well question the courage of the US army, IDF, RA, PLA etc cos they dress their soilders in clothing that would bhelp them blend into their surroundings.

lol

skythe

“Injustice is not something the Palestinians alone have had to suffer, and the Arab-Israeli conflict is not about good versus evil, one side which is right and another which is wrong. It is about two peoples with conflicting aspirationss and interests, and neither one can claim to be the sole victim of the events that have plagued this region for decades now. Do Israelis who have had family members killed have sanction to go out and kill as many Palestinians as possible? Does anyone who feels he might have been wronged by someone deserve to go out and take his revenge on the world?”

its not like israelis never resorted to ‘unconvential’ means of getting what they wanted before the IDF was a force to be reconed with, a certain bombing of a british army headquarters comes to mind.

today its the israeli settlers that have the ‘protection’ of the mighty IDF, so they dont have to resort to unconvential means to get even, cos by almost all accounts, most IDF opperations in palistinian territory after an attack on israel seems only to serve the pupose of vengence.

to me, it is one level when desperate individuals go out to kill for vengence, and it is quite a different matter when a national organisation does it.

Originally posted by Arthur
Wuss! I actually think that settlers and the IDF are legitimate targets for the terrorists, as those are the ones occupying Palestinian territory. On the other hand, as any sane person I am absolutely disgusted by attacks on civilian targets in ‘Israel proper’. In fact, i seriously think that if those terrorist *******s could just limit their attacks on more legitimate targets (=military ones and settlers), it would become hard not to label them as freedom fighters rather than terrorists.

The settlers may be wrong, may be unpopular, they maybe a whole lot of things, but they are still civilians, with the same rights to life and security entitled to every civilian on the planet. This is not solely my opinion, nor that of Israel, but that which all prominent human rights organization in the world support. The fact that they live in disputed territory does not make them any less civilian than people living within Israel proper. It’s quite funny to see the biggest opponents to the death penalty, or the people which decry treatment of Al-Quida terrorists by US authorities, so lighty pass capital punishment on people whose crime is living where some people believe they shouldn’t.

Yet even if the above were not true, I would still argue that settlers and IDF soldiers are not legitimate targets. The positions held by Israel and the Palestinian Autonomy before the outbreak of current fighting was in accordance with aqreements signed by both parties, accords in which the Palestinians were obligated to settle disputes through peaceful means and negotiations (Arafat’s letter to Rabin of September 3rd 1993) and which obliged the Palestinians to dismantle terrorist organization, collect illegal weapon and stop anti-Israeli incitement. Therefore, any attacks by such organizations on any Israeli target are a clear violation of the commitments undertaken by the Palestinians, and hence completely illegitimate.
No sane individual can truely expect Israel on the one hand to make concessions to the Palestinians yet on the other accept a tolerable level of violence. The Palestinians cannot on the one hand demand the right to target certain groups of Israelis any time they see fit, while at the same time demand of Israel to grant them the full rights they feel they deserve. It’s one or the other.

I’m Israeli.

Also, none of the nations in the region could touch Israel in a conflict. Syrias mainly Soviet or Russian equipment is poorly kept. Jordans equipment is outclassed, though they do have some credible equipment (F-16s and AH-1s), Saudi Arabias forces are too widespread (it would take weeks to plan any offensive and get logistical problems sorted), Iraq (well, Iraq is Iraq), Egypt could find itself on the recieving end of the IDF Army and Lebanon is religiously mixed.
Libya and Algeria have no real means to attack Israel (out side of a few Su-24 Fencers and MiG-25 Foxbats, and I guess some SRBMs).

Someone posted that.

I should add that Lebanon is recovering from civil war, and Jordan and Egypt have treaties with Israel. The US copies Israel on a lot of tactics.
Syria also has a brutal dictator, and brutal dictators usually have armies, and they might mutiny, you never know.
Israel has the highest military/civilian ratio in the developed world, just to give you an idea how big the army is.

Arthur-
Normal Israelis like me want peace and would not mind a Palestinian state. Many Palestinians want peace too. It’s only radicals like Ariel Sharon who are getting us into trouble. Still, I think there should be no terror. I know someone who got injured in an attack in Gaza.Nationalists can get really overboard with this, I knew someone who named their child Amiya (people of G-d).

Skythe has a good point. While the Jews suffered for centuries, so have the Palestinians. Ottomans, British, Jordanians or Egyptians.

Originally posted by Viper01
…does not (in any way possible) mean that I support the vicious crimes carried out by terrorists from Hamas, Al-Aqsa etc. against Israeli civilians and military personnel.

Wuss! I actually think that settlers and the IDF are legitimate targets for the terrorists, as those are the ones occupying Palestinian territory. On the other hand, as any sane person I am absolutely disgusted by attacks on civilian targets in ‘Israel proper’. In fact, i seriously think that if those terrorist *******s could just limit their attacks on more legitimate targets (=military ones and settlers), it would become hard not to label them as freedom fighters rather than terrorists.

As for the wall/fence semantics: the border between the two Germanies was a fence also, only the parts through the urban parts of Berlin were a real wall.

Injustice is not something the Palestinians alone have had to suffer, and the Arab-Israeli conflict is not about good versus evil, one side which is right and another which is wrong. It is about two peoples with conflicting aspirationss and interests, and neither one can claim to be the sole victim of the events that have plagued this region for decades now. Do Israelis who have had family members killed have sanction to go out and kill as many Palestinians as possible? Does anyone who feels he might have been wronged by someone deserve to go out and take his revenge on the world?

Some Palestinians feel they have suffered injustice. So what? Welcome to the club! We have our grievances too, shall I point fingers and begin demanding they be addressed as well? Or are the only ones who deserve justice those who would resort to the basest means? Palestinians’ notion of injustice do not in any way justify suicide bombings, nor do they automatically make it Israel’s responsibility and duty to address these grievances.

Peace will arrive through compromise and settlement. Each suicide bombing makes that goal harder to reach, hardens minds and poisons souls, furthering any prospects for peace. That is what organizations like Hamas are after. If not for these “heroics”, the Palestinians probably would have had their own country already. There are many people around here who have suffered personal grief, both Israelis and Palestinians, and yet continue to make an effort for peace. The only self deceit is of those who romanticise the motivations of people who are nothing but murderers.

skythe:

“the Hamas and Islamic Jihad are movements dedicated to the destruction of Israel. They are not about peaceful co-existance, they are not about two states for two peoples, they are for wiping out Israel, and taking as many Israelis as possible with it. Not everyone with an issue deserves to have his “grievances” addressed.”

im guess thats the kind of self deceving attitude that made hamas and islamic jihad so effective in the first place.

true, the ‘chartered’ goals of these organisations are to ‘destroy israel and drive the jews into the sea’, but the suicide bombers – the ppl that make these organisations work, rarely have such extreme annabitions to begin with.

the vast majority of them only turned to suicide bombing after they had witnessed and/or suffered great injustice at the hands of israelis. and the reason most of these ppl suffered injustice? is it because the jews are ‘evil’ by nature? i dont think so.

To begin with, the security barrier currently under construction is not a wall, it’s a fence. The watch towers and meters high walls one regularly sees in the media contitute about 5% of the barrier’s make up, and are to be found only near Jerusalem and near Qalqilya, where gunmen repeatedly opened fire on motorists travelling on a major highway nearby.

Other than that, no doubt about it: the fence is bad. It’s bad for the Palestinians, it’s bad for the Israelis, even the settlers hate it. But worst of all hate it the Hamas, the Islamic Jihad and all the rest of that cuddly group, which is why as long as no agreement is reached between Israelis and Palestinians, as long as the Palestinian Authority refuses to live up to its obligations (under both the Oslo Accords and the U.N. backed RoadMap for Peace) to dismantle and disarm these groups, the fence is the lesser of evils.
Last week two Palestinian suicide bombers from Jenin were caught on their way to a school in the northern Israeli town of Yokneam. They were caught because instead of travelling the 30km between the two places, the fence forced them to travel a distance 3 times greater and they were apprehended on the way. As I said, the fence is bad – but other things are much worse.

Plawolf – the Hamas and Islamic Jihad are movements dedicated to the destruction of Israel. They are not about peaceful co-existance, they are not about two states for two peoples, they are for wiping out Israel, and taking as many Israelis as possible with it. Not everyone with an issue deserves to have his “grievances” addressed.

Arthur:

“I just can’t understand why the Berlin Wall was a bad idea, and the Palestinian Wall should be a good one.”

i dont think its the wall thats most ppl have a problem with, its where the israelis are putting it. which is right in between palistinian homes and the land that had supported them for generations, and if the wall goes as planned (by the israeli government), then alot of palistinians who didnt have much to start with will loose their only means to make a living.

as for those who are so fearcly against the IDF soilders who are refusing to fight. well, i think some ppl are getting a little off track. lets not forget that its not just some of the israeli conscripts that are refusing to fight, but also fighter and helo pilots. some of whom ever fought in wars with the arabs when israel was really facing a servious threat to its servival. so it seems funny that anyone would question their courage and dedication to their country.

at the begining of their service, all american soilders swear an oath to protect their nationa against all enemies, foreign and domestic. im not sure if israeli soilders take a similar oath, but even if they dont, im sure we can all appreciate the logic behind it. and thats what i think these (well at least most of these) IDF/AF soilders/pilots at trying to do.

does anyone here seriously think that the nation of israel is in mortal danger of annialation by the ‘hawding arabs’?

egypt, jorden, SA etc are all trying to build better realtions with israel. and as point out by others before, even if they were hostile, they arent really of any major threat against the IDF. what threatens israel today are palastinian suicide bombers/attackers.

hands up all those who think u can stop a suicide bomb with a ‘smart’ bomb?

it is my view that the best, if not only way to effectively stop sucide bombers is by listening to their grevences and trying ur best to address them. i think israel’s past and current military ‘solutions’ to this problem has only proven that their is no military solution short of wiping the palistinians out. but since the current israeli administration seems to not wish to seek a none-military solution, the only thing a soilder who is truely willing to make sacraficies for his nation is to stop fighting, in the hopes that by doing so, he could help to force the administration to sit down and talk (sincerly), or at the very least draw attention to the problem he is trying to address.