It was 71 years ago this evening…

I presume the weather wasn’t seen as an issue for a flight that was only supposed to be of 350-400 mile duration and that was presumably intended to finish well before dark?

Even full hurricane?

Gentlemen,

Try http://www.aviatorsdatabase.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Lost-Patrol.pdf which is an article that appeared in the June 1973 issue of Naval Aviation News. It is a summary of events based on the Navy Board of Inquiry; not only does it provide far more detail than appears in popular accounts, but it also avoids the mistake of so many other authors in trying to make events more exciting and mysterious.

In this account Great Sale Key is an uninhabited island just north of Grand Bahama Island. There is a line of smaller islands extending from north-north-west of Great Sale Key to the south-east (which leads me to wonder if Taylor overflew the northern ones and mistook them for the Florida Keys).

Brian

Have not seen that there was a hurricane(!) taking place at the time, on top of everything else, on the other sites I have viewed, but it does seem to indicate that there were problems that may or may not have been indicated to the flight before they set off, not helped in the least the fact that Taylor turned up late (without known explanation) and delayed take off – did he receive a weather briefing, perhaps?

I presume the weather wasn’t seen as an issue for a flight that was only supposed to be of 350-400 mile duration and that was presumably intended to finish well before dark?

Please don’t forget that the Avengers were supposed to have clocks on board as well – might there not be some reason to assume that some other instruments were also missing, say, the odd compass or two?

I suppose it is possible although less likely, in my opinion.

I would have thought that the ‘compass’ aboard an Avenger consisted of a calibrated (swung) master-compass and repeaters for the pilot and navigator / observer; not the sort of integrated system likely to go ‘missing’ from an unattended aircraft (in the same way that aircraft clocks and stopwatches do)!

Nor were compasses the sort of thing that pilots flying over water would be likely to fly without, not in the same way as flying without an aircraft clock anyway. A pilot is fairly likely to be wearing a wristwatch that has sufficient accuracy for dead-reckoning navigation, over water in daylight; he will not be carrying a compass that could substitute in the same way for a missing (or defective) aircraft compass.

Taylor said:”Both of my compasses are out…”

What had probably actually happened is that Taylor had expected to see land in a certain orientation but, after being blown further out into the Atlantic, he saw different island groups than the ones he was expecting; to make the orientation of these islands ‘fit’ where he was supposed to be he assumed that both his compasses had failed because that was the only way it made sense to him.

At this point there was radio conversation between the different aircraft in Flight 19 and the compasses of the other aircraft agreed with both of Taylor’s ‘faulty’ compasses; what are the chances of all the compasses (that were consulted) all being faulty at the same time and by the same amount?

Surely aircraft carry two or more compasses in case of failure so it is reasonable to assume that the two compasses are independent in operation; the question therefore is if Taylor is sure both his compasses have ‘failed’ what is he comparing them to?

Out over the ocean Taylor was happy with his compasses, it was only when he saw land, land that was the ‘wrong way round’ that he suspected he had faulty compasses.

Please don’t forget that the Avengers were supposed to have clocks on board as well – might there not be some reason to assume that some other instruments were also missing, say, the odd compass or two?
Taylor would have been in overall charge because he was the instructor; the others were pilots under training so presumably they ‘bowed’ to the knowledge of the experienced man on the scene. It has been put that he was not a particularly confident pilot – so why was he an instructor? – with a nasty habit of getting lost; maybe these were things that shouldn’t have been allowed to happen, but they did…

Think about what Taylor was actually suggesting! After flying maybe 150 miles out into the Atlantic Taylor suddenly suggests the whole flight had been blown at least 50 miles back past where they had started from! How? You don’t think they’d have noticed that 200 mile-per-hour headwind at some point?

In fact, it was even a more ridiculous suggestion than that because Flight 19 had already done some bombing practice on another island group and they didn’t think they were over the Florida Keys then, so they would have to have been blown these 200 miles since then. What headwind could have done that? Presumably one that would have had them flying backwards as they looked at the islands below?

Found this on the Naval Air Station Fort Lauderdale Museum Flight 19 page:

The squadron’s flight plan was scheduled to take them due east from Naval Air Station Fort Lauderdale for 141 miles, north for 73 miles, and then back over a final 140-mile leg to complete the exercise. ​ Flight 19’s location was last given as 75 miles northeast of Cocoa, Florida. At that time the planes had slightly more than one hour’s fuel supply. They may actually have been as much as 200 miles at sea. Meanwhile, weather and sea conditions got worse, as the evening wore on. It was reported by the airport weather station at Miami, that a large area of turbulent air rolled out of a storm centered over Georgia, sweeping over Jacksonville about noon, and reaching Miami by nightfall. Squalls on the surface, 40 mile winds at 1,000 feet, and full hurricane of 75 miles an hour at 8,000 feet, was recorded at 4:00pm.

http://www.nasflmuseum.com/flight-19.html

Slightly confusing in parts – when exactly did they have one hour’s fuel remaining, for example, and full hurricane?
Have not seen that there was a hurricane(!) taking place at the time, on top of everything else, on the other sites I have viewed, but it does seem to indicate that there were problems that may or may not have been indicated to the flight before they set off, not helped in the least the fact that Taylor turned up late (without known explanation) and delayed take off – did he receive a weather briefing, perhaps?

And for those who wonder why the others didn’t attempt to take control…

That’s really interesting information but it only leaves me more confused than before.

I find the fact that some members of the flight actually outranked Taylor and yet still followed him to their deaths, even if they did try to argue another (and a correct) course of action, incredible!

The moment Taylor suggested that they had been blown over the Florida Keys I’d have been off; I’d have turned my aircraft due west and kept going until I hit the coast of Florida!

Think about what Taylor was actually suggesting! After flying maybe 150 miles out into the Atlantic Taylor suddenly suggests the whole flight had been blown at least 50 miles back past where they had started from! How? You don’t think they’d have noticed that 200 mile-per-hour headwind at some point?

In fact, it was even a more ridiculous suggestion than that because Flight 19 had already done some bombing practice on another island group and they didn’t think they were over the Florida Keys then, so they would have to have been blown these 200 miles since then. What headwind could have done that? Presumably one that would have had them flying backwards as they looked at the islands below?

I did not say that ALL the compasses were not working – Taylor, the instructor, said his compass was not working:

That others had working compasses can be deduced from the fact that they fly particular bearings – at one point Taylor wanted them on 030 (NNE-ish – can’t find the link now) so must have had someone else take the formation lead.

Taylor said:”Both of my compasses are out…”

What had probably actually happened is that Taylor had expected to see land in a certain orientation but, after being blown further out into the Atlantic, he saw different island groups than the ones he was expecting; to make the orientation of these islands ‘fit’ where he was supposed to be he assumed that both his compasses had failed because that was the only way it made sense to him.

At this point there was radio conversation between the different aircraft in Flight 19 and the compasses of the other aircraft agreed with both of Taylor’s ‘faulty’ compasses; what are the chances of all the compasses (that were consulted) all being faulty at the same time and by the same amount?

Surely aircraft carry two or more compasses in case of failure so it is reasonable to assume that the two compasses are independent in operation; the question therefore is if Taylor is sure both his compasses have ‘failed’ what is he comparing them to?

Out over the ocean Taylor was happy with his compasses, it was only when he saw land, land that was the ‘wrong way round’ that he suspected he had faulty compasses.

Whilst I tend to agree, there was certainly dissent freely expressed by radio within the flight:

There is a big gap between saying and actually doing .I would also think that you would have a safety in numbers and “pack mentality” .You would be a brave person to fly off on your own into the unknown ,i would think they would still be hoping that they would be found and safety in numbers.

There was nothing wrong with their compasses (three on each aircraft I believe), there was something wrong with their navigation. It is a classic mistake with navigation: trying to make your instruments (compass) agree with where you are sure you are, or think you are, or where you want to be.

The fact that all their compasses were faulty seems strange (unless you want to buy-into the whole Bermuda Triangle nonsense); no, their compasses weren’t all wrong, they were all right!

I did not say that ALL the compasses were not working – Taylor, the instructor, said his compass was not working:

FT-74 tried again and a man identified as FT-28 (Taylor) came on. “FT-28, this is FT-74, what is your trouble?” “Both of my compasses are out”, Taylor replied

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_19

That others had working compasses can be deduced from the fact that they fly particular bearings – at one point Taylor wanted them on 030 (NNE-ish – can’t find the link now) so must have had someone else take the formation lead. And for those who wonder why the others didn’t attempt to take control:

At some point the crew tried to communicate between themselves: Ensign Bossi, and also Capt. Powers separately, tried to take control (Powers was higher in rank than the pilot leader, but still a student on the Avenger). They both communicated with the Squadron leader suggesting that they should be correcting their course.

http://www.nasflmuseum.com/flight-19.html

I would think that in the stressed out mindset of them all they would a, default to obeying , b, Trust that the senior officer in charge will actually get them out of the predicament , c , be worried they would be washed out and failed in front of their peers if they disobeyed…

Whilst I tend to agree, there was certainly dissent freely expressed by radio within the flight:

‘…someone said:”Dammit, if we could just fly west we would get home; head west, dammit!”‘

There was nothing wrong with their compasses (three on each aircraft I believe), there was something wrong with their navigation. It is a classic mistake with navigation: trying to make your instruments (compass) agree with where you are sure you are, or think you are, or where you want to be.

The fact that all their compasses were faulty seems strange (unless you want to buy-into the whole Bermuda Triangle nonsense); no, their compasses weren’t all wrong, they were all right!

I would think that in the stressed out mindset of them all they would a, default to obeying , b, Trust that the senior officer in charge will actually get them out of the predicament , c , be worried they would be washed out and failed in front of their peers if they disobeyed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M68eDUn9Kw BBC Documentary 30 mins starts the flight 19 story but well worth watching it all.

…If you had a working compass, of course.

(The reports list that there was communication saying some of their compasses were not working)

It would take courage to admit they were lost,very low on fuel and in site of unidentified islands and then plan to ditch all the flight very close to the islands with a view to getting ashore . Also I have been told that when becoming lost it is best to reverse track and head back to the last known definite fix rather than carry on in the hope that something will turn up as per the original plan.

Isn’t the ‘captain’ of an aircraft primarily responsible for the safety of his crew?

If the pilot was sure he was being ordered to fly further out into the Atlantic where his aircraft would run out of fuel and he and his crew would certainly die then I think, given the statement above, that would be a pretty good defence in any Court Marshal wouldn’t it?

I was wondering this earlier – if one crew had flown west to safety when being told to fly east by their instructor (whether he survived or not) would that be grounds for something like a courts martial?
I have a vague memory of a bridge bombing mission, can’t remember where nor when or even which war, where one pilot refused because he was certain that the bridge was not their actual target due to a screw up with the navigation. Even though he was proved correct he had preparations started for ignoring his commanding officer’s orders. (I am willing to be told that this was a film plot, but I do feel that this was something that occurred rather than I experienced on screen or script)

In response to the ‘anyone could have changed direction’ type comments, there is one key thing.

These were military men, doing what their flight commander, and presumably examining officer, told them. To disobey, however much you doubt them, takes a lot of courage.

Yes, I take your point, but at what point does it take less courage than flying to certain death (in peacetime)?

I was never referring to anything but the two that were said to have been recovered in the quote…

OK, point taken…..again.

There is what appears to be a good, unemotional, account of events here https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4417 .

Not so good that it can’t get the facts correct – it is widely reported that there were four TBF-1Cs and one TBM-3 aircraft, rather than just ‘five Grumman TBM Avengers’.[/Pedantic]

In addition to the man not needing the hours and being left behind…one man was due to be discharged the following morning, so probably didn’t need the hours either. Another was aged 17, having lied about his age and joining up when he was 15.

I do not find anything surprising in this loss of five Avengers through bad navigation. It was a common occurrence. The US Navy lost several flights/squadrons on them in the Pacific too, they just vanished while on transit between islands or on their way to/from targets when unescorted.

In RNZAF service the Avengers had a three-man crew, Pilot, Navigator and Wireless Operator-Air Gunner.
In Royal Navy service they had a three-man crew, Pilot, Observer and Telegraphist-Air Gunner.
In US Navy service they had a three man crew, Pilot, Wireless Operator, and a Gunner.

Having a specialist navigator onboard was obviously an advantage, one the US Navy thought they didn’t need and they paid dearly for it.