J.E. Johnnie Johnson

Always a tricky and contentious avenue, Otis! I can hear the shouts of “Revisionist!” already.

The published source or “bible” might be Chris Shores “Aces High” which gives 34 and 7 shared destroyed, 3 and 2 shared probables, 10 and 3 shared damaged and 1 shared destroyed on the ground. However, I quote those verbatim without further comment or observation. The book also tabulates each claim, of course.

The book “Wing Leader” is hardly a reliable reference – like most of its period and genre.

I am aware that Dilip Sarkar did some work and published books on JEJ (I don’t have them!) but suspect he does not analyse the individual claims or further examine such claims.

Probably not been very helpful….but I can post a breakdown of each claim (date,type,location etc) if you dont already have it?

I’ve always thought there was something I wasn’t getting about Johnson.

His public profile was never as high as Tuck’s, or Bader’s – and yet he is on record as the highest scoring RAF pilot of the war. His record was a shining one – a regular guy from Leicestershire who struggled to get into military flying at all ends up as the acredited highest scoring ‘ace’ as well as a trusted wing leader. Yet those outside of aviation have rarely heard of him. Even Greg ‘NewGuy’ on here, who is researching the career of RST very carefully for his film project, had to ask in all innocence whether anyone had a higher official score than Tuck. Why is this? Is there a dark secret? Something that happened after the war? (and I don’t mean revisionism over his claims, which strikes me as pointless).

Johnson himself freely admitted that he flew for the vast majority of his career with someone behind him, watching his tail – and that that combined with above-average marksmanship and a degree of air superiority in the latter half of his career would doubtless lend itself to a high score – whether its 38, 40 or 28. Is there something else driving this general downer on Johnson?

Thanks Tangmere,

that was quick !

I have “Wing Leader” here now, re-reading after finding it on a shopping trip last week. Funnily enough “Aces High” the the one I was looking for, in particular. May go further afield for it tomorrow.

Presumably Shores has researched and is happy with those claims ?

My opponent assures me that there a numerous sources which show J.E.J. was a notorious overclaimer ( n.b. I have toned this down here , as i don’t beleive a word of it ).

I think what I am really after is reassurance there are no such books. Or their titles, in the very unlikely event that they do exist. if that makes sense.

The claim list would be cool, if it is easy to post. Please do not go to too much trouble.

regards Otis

I’ve always thought there was something I wasn’t getting about Johnson.

……..His public profile was never as high as Tuck’s, or Bader’s – Is there something else driving this general downer on Johnson?

Hi Beermat,

Is there anything written down ? That’s the claim being made.

I wonder if part of that publicity thing is because Johnson was unlucky enough to miss the real glory days of the Battle of Britain. Also lucky enough not to have lost his legs, get shot down, taken Prisoner of War and make daring escapes.

Just surviving until wars end, knocking down the occassional plane does not much for such an exciting tale.

regards Otis

Revisionism is a dangerous road, and it would be invidious to suggest other than that JEJ was anything other than a fine fighter leader, a gallant airman and a great fighter pilot. To an extent, I suppose, it matters little whether his score is 34 or 24….or any other number. However, the curious researcher and historian is often led to researching individual losses and claims and it is often the case that what emerges out of that is that the accepted figures don’t always stack up. By default, therefore, such research often leads unintentionally down the “revisionist” path. And it isn’t always popular. I know!

In the case of JEJ, I gather that there was also some debate as to whether he qualified for inclusion on the Battle of Britain roll. There was talk that he would not be on the Battle of Britain London Monument, for example. I never checked out the final position on this – but it would be easy to do so. I also know, for example, that Ken Wynn will be excluding Richard Playne Stevens from his next edition of “Men of The Battle of Britain” on the grounds that there is insufficient (or no) evidence that he qualifies as a BofB pilot….notwithstanding his prowess as a night fighter pilot extraordinaire. So, research that leads to revising (Revisionism?) previously established fact does have a tendency to alienate some. Under the circumstances, that is understandable. So, beware if anyone should start to revise downwards Johnny Johnson’s score!

I will scan and post Chris Shores’ list for you after completing another rather icy college taxi run. Getting out of the lane is interesting…..!!

and yet he is on record as the highest scoring RAF pilot of the war.

sorry to drift a bit, I understood now that M T StJohn Pattle was generally accepted as the leading RAF “ace” of the war with around 50 kills, and his profile is even lower than Johnson’s with I agree, understandable reasons such as theatre of operations, loss of records etc.

As promised.

Not sure about generally accepted, but yes, good point. It’s a grey area, that one. I understand that Christopher Shores has linked 27 of Pattle’s claims to specific Italian and German losses, and completely discounted 6. This leaves a fuzzy total of somewhere between 27 and 44 kills.

Also agreed, Pattle’s even less lauded than Johnson, and that’s very wrong too!

But you know, the numbers don’t matter so much as the oddly varying degrees of recognition. Maybe it’s just down to the heroes the public wanted… Bader lost his legs and was played by Kenneth More. And Tuck just looked the part!

Osprey show Pattle with 15.5 kills in a Gladiator, “50 +” in total, maybe there is something a little incongruous around the discussion, I recall reading about Pattle when I was 14 or so (when I was reading anything with a WW2 fighter association!) but it was a long while I think before his scores were widely recorded and mentioned.

Tangmere (OK, it’s taken me a couple of months on here to be sure but.. you ARE Andy Saunders and I claim my five pounds) I don’t have the Shores ‘bible’ with me here – (and not wanting to be a numpty :)) – what does it say about Pattle?

Otis, I can’t find anything anywhere about JEJ being a line-shooter when it comes to his score – but I would be as interested as you to find out what ‘wider reading’ your correspondent had done on the subject. My ‘library’ isn’t as comprehensive as all that.

I’ve seen some places tactfully skirt round the issue of Pattle’s score, by calling Johnson the highest scoring RAF Ace to survive the war, or from a western hemisphere ( or similar ).

Thanks for the scan Tangmere. Hardly seems an outrageous set of claims for such a long period.

regards Otis

During research for EN 398 paint scheme it seems no kill markings were painted on the aircraft, is there a reason for this ? possibly later in the war this practice stopped due to rough treatment on capture ?

I’ve seen some places tactfully skirt round the issue of Pattle’s score, by calling Johnson the highest scoring RAF Ace to survive the war, or from a western hemisphere ( or similar ).

Osprey show Pattle with 15.5 kills in a Gladiator, “50 +” in total, maybe there is something a little incongruous around the discussion, I recall reading about Pattle when I was 14 or so (when I was reading anything with a WW2 fighter association!) but it was a long while I think before his scores were widely recorded and mentioned.

Well…what a pity I don’t know your address otherwise I’d shove the fiver in the post right away!

Pattle is given as “About” 50 and 2 shared destroyed, 7 and 1 shared probable, 4 and 2 shared damaged and 3 destroyed on the ground.

I haven’t read it for years, but there is a book by E C R Baker on my shelf called “Pattle: Supreme Fighter in The Air” by Kimber. 1965. Not added them up, but the “kill” list here looks quite a bit less than the “about” 50 quoted by Chris Shores.

Andy Saunders

Thanks!

Matt “Not As Famous As Andy Saunders” Bearman

In the case of JEJ, I gather that there was also some debate as to whether he qualified for inclusion on the Battle of Britain roll.

I met JEJ a few times in the 90’s and he was always clear to point out that he did not consider himself to be part of the BoB as he was still training at the time.

As for claims/kills, I don’t think we can ever be sure of who got what. Pilots would have made genuine mistakes, some may have been over enthusiastic about the damage inflicted on an enemy aircraft during combat.

I was told that Ginger Lacy scored more than he claimed but let some of the less experienced pilots take the credit for a kill he was responsible for (as long as they’d attacked it with him and got a shot in) to boost their confidence. It didn’t matter to him as long as someone shot them down. I think it was grumpy Unwin that told me this but can’t remember with 100% certaincy.

Pages from ‘Ace of Aces’

I have a copy of E.C.R. Baker’s 1992 edition of ‘Ace of Aces’ immediately to hand, so here are the pages mentioned above scanned for anyone who is interested.

The first couple are the combat record from pages 210 and 211:
[ATTACH]180603[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]180604[/ATTACH]

The remaining pages are from the Epilogue:
[ATTACH]180605[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]180606[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]180607[/ATTACH]

I think that covers the information mentioned so far, however if anyone wants any more of the pages scanned, let me know.

Andy

Claims generally

This probably goes without saying but anyway … there is always a gap between claims and reality. The key contributing factors are the pace and uncertainty of battle and the individual.

In my many readings I have encountered the proposition that; Luftwaffe claims are generally more reliable as they insisted on a confimation process … someone else had to witness the claim (during battle or after the fact, eg. a downed aircraft at given location) to allow it to be confimed. But the RAF didn’t implement a similar additional level of confirmation, considering that accepting claims was good for morale. BoB tallies in particular were often widly astray notwithstanding the relative simplicity of counting downed EAs. Am I in the ball park here or out on a limb?

If, as mentioned above, JEJ’s claims were in the presence of and arguably witnessed by a wing man, they should tend to be more accurate a la the Lutfwaffe experience.

Don

claims

lets see,more than fifty years after a war in which quite a few excited young men were killing other excited young men out of the skys and people actually spend time trying to nit pick on whether the scores are real or not!!Only met J Johnson once (my AOC in Aden)and would not dream of asking did you really shoot down fifty?!!!
The fact that all their collective kills saved us should be sufficient.

Well said!

But there are reasons for accuracy.

I have a personal interest in knowing who shot down my Uncle (closure) so have become pedantic about that (and interested in Luftwaffe claim technique and accuracy).

Others have similar Historical research imperatives … with related and valid need for accuracy.

But this is a public place, people with axes to grind come here, debaters debate here. That’s perfectly OK, freedom of speech and all that.

All that said … your point is bang on.

lets see,more than fifty years after a war in which quite a few excited young men were killing other excited young men out of the skys and people actually spend time trying to nit pick on whether the scores are real or not!!Only met J Johnson once (my AOC in Aden)and would not dream of asking did you really shoot down fifty?!!!
The fact that all their collective kills saved us should be sufficient.

Here here I won’t be taking all the pictures of JJ of my aviation wall any time soon! 1 kill or 50 kills they were ALL hero’s to me…………..