Ja 37 viggen ( interceptor version) vs Mig-23MLA

I’ll bet the Soviets got a few with the MiG-31, but if they did, they wouldn’t release that to the public.

The Soviet PVO have claimed they did the MiG-31s were flying at Mach 2.35. Whether they would be able to take out an SR-71 in a real shoot-down attempt is unlikely.

I read the USAF stopped flying over Soviet territory when the MiG-31 entered service (Sled Driver).

The USAF never tried to fly over Soviet territory with the SR-71, the aircraft was designed not to fly over other countrys’ territory but fly parallel to their borders and coastlines and make their observations from there.

One thing about the oft-told tales of the SR-71 being a “victim”. In those cases, the SRs were flying at the same known altitude at the same known speed, on the same known route with no deviations to either side at all, at a known time (determined by the Blackbirds known launch time when they flew that repeated mission) no maneuvering or attempt to avoid, no countermeasures, etc. With a scenario like that, it’s not surprising that they were “intercepted”.

Not quite, they were on a passing south of Sweden on their way to Russia, turned North, and when they were
getting close to Finland, made a high speed left 180′ turn.
At that speed, the turn radius was immense, so they had to enter Swedish Air Space briefly.
After leaving the Swedish Air Space, they flew south between the islands of Öland and Gotland.
There is a real narrow gap of international waters, and they cannot deviate much without again
violating Swedish Air Space.
The time from passing South of Sweden, to entering the gap between the islands was known, so it was
easy to send a JA-37 Viggen to intercept.
Thus the SR-71 had really no choice.
After showing the USAF that interception was possible, the SR-71s started to slow down to MACH 2,5
in the turn, which allowed them to make the turn without violating Swedish Air Space.

I’ll bet the Soviets got a few with the MiG-31, but if they did, they wouldn’t release that to the public. I read the USAF stopped flying over Soviet territory when the MiG-31 entered service (Sled Driver).

Viggen only confirmed foreign aircraft to get a radar lock on an SR-71…

Perhaps the only one yanks comfirmed, but there might an other https://theaviationist.com/2013/12/11/sr-71-vs-mig-31/ too

Viggen only confirmed foreign aircraft to get a radar lock on an SR-71…

Yes, no HMS added.

MiG-23MLD with R-73:
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/figh…mig23mld-9.jpg
http://www.16va.be/galeries_vvs/mig-…_2/_00018.html
http://www.16va.be/galeries_vvs/mig-…_2/_00022.html

Thanks, I had read that R-73 was integrated but pics usually only showed R-60 so I wondered whether that was error, or only applied to some trials aircraft.
MiG-23 did not have HMS however, right? That only came with -98 upgrade?

I just don’t recall the Saab datalink being deployed that early.

ISTR Jaktviggen datalink could only link two aircraft. It was increased to four in Gripen.

Peter G already made a (very) good summary, i´ll just add a few notes

– The first demonstration of IFDL between two Viggens was in 1982, of four in 1985
– With the exception of the Tomcat, the JAS37 Viggen was the only (that i am aware) “Western” Aircraft capable of doing multiple engagements at BVR before the introduction of the AIM-120, it could launch and guide two SARH Sky Flash against two diferent targets at the same time
– The JAS37 Viggen had an interesting trick with the Oerlikon KCA 30mm gun (quite a fearsome beast in itself, the weight of the ammunition was 50% over the NATO Standard and it had a muzle velocity 20% over the equivalent ADEN gun), it had an automated “hands off” frontal pass “gun mode”, rumours said that it was very precise but the poor pilot was in for a very rough ride (of the nausea inducing type) if the target moved.
– The JAS37 was mainly a point interceptor built to deal with SU-24´s and TU-22´s

Cheers

Seems like it would have been pretty capable in BVR although in WVR it would soon be at an energy disadvantage.

In BVR combat how would it have compared with the F-15 or F/A-18?

MiG-23MLD with R-73:
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fighter/mig23mld/mig23mld-9.jpg
http://www.16va.be/galeries_vvs/mig-23mld/imgcol/imgcol_2/_00018.html
http://www.16va.be/galeries_vvs/mig-23mld/imgcol/imgcol_2/_00022.html

Also see:
https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?83817-The-MiG-25-Unsurpassed-interceptor/page15

J 35D Draken had STRIL 60 GCI datalink – this was a second set of markers on the compass, altimeter, speed, etc to give intercept parameters to the target. This was back in 1963.

JA 37 Viggen (1980) always had GCI datalink, then:
1985: Mod A – Adds fighter to fighter datalink (two a/c can transmit at once). Datalink to around 81 nm.
1987: Mod B – adds BOY401 flare decoys, Rb74 (AIM-9L) vice Rb24J (AIM-9J), datalink updated to have 4 a/c transmitting at once
1990: JA 37C upgrade with improved radar ECCM, TWS added
1992: Automatic gun aiming added (radar coupled with autopilot and gun)
1995: Fitted with BOL 300 chaff decoys
1996: Surface search mode added to radar.
1997-01: 35 upgraded to JA 37D with U95 jammer, improved RWR and tactical display (datalink, map), AMRAAM capability.
1999: Passive mode added to radar.
2003-04: Retired
2012: Proposed upgrade with IRIS-T.
2020: Could have remained in service till this date with Meteor and IRST.

Random notes:
Canards don’t really help agility as the aircraft is dynamically stable. It bleeds off speed in turning fight.
Excellent initial turn rate, very poor sustained. Speed drops from Mach 0.9 to 300 kph in 180 degree turn
Large RCS (those intakes!) and visual signature, low IR signature due to thrust reverser
Swedish pilots used aircraft mainly as BVR

ISTR Jaktviggen datalink could only link two aircraft. It was increased to four in Gripen.
PS-46 was probably much better than even last versions of Sapfir, it was developed with help from Hughes and (IIRC) included design solutions used in APG-63. I also daresay that Sky Flash was better missile than R-23/R-24.
MiG-23 may have had some advantage in kinematics, maybe also better countermeasure set. Viggen originally had neither flare or chaff dispensers.
I’ve read that MiG-23MLD could carry R-73, not sure if I have ever seen it carrying one though.

One thing about the oft-told tales of the SR-71 being a “victim”. In those cases, the SRs were flying at the same known altitude at the same known speed, on the same known route with no deviations to either side at all, at a known time (determined by the Blackbirds known launch time when they flew that repeated mission) no maneuvering or attempt to avoid, no countermeasures, etc. With a scenario like that, it’s not surprising that they were “intercepted”.

However, had the missions had to be flown in a “hot” environment without those constraints, I doubt that the Viggens, good as they were, would have been able to achieve a firing solution, if they even could have gotten to the area in time.

Quoted for truth.

We were considered a friendly nation, that’s why those tales are possible. Had we been considered an hostile nation we would never have seen those blackbirds.

The JA-37 Viggen were fighters from 4 Generation , while the AJ/SK/SH-37
Viggen should have been described better as fighters from 3 Generation like the MiG-23/27.

In fact the JA-37 had been created as second generation from AJ/SK/SH-37, once the JA-37 were delivered for service in the 1978/9 with the purpose to face the new generation from Soviet fighters in development (MiG-29 / Su-27/ MiG 31) that were keeping into secrecy, as well as the new versions of the 3 Generation (MiG-23 and MiG-25) of fighters from former Soviet Union.

As a result of this, the JA-37 had been received new systems (fly by wire, datalinks, digital computers, MFD, ECM, BVR missiles and others) that were introduced among 4 Generation fighters (F-14 , F-15, F-16, F/A-18, Mirage-2000) from West as well as in Soviet fighters (MiG-29 , Su-27 and MiG-31).

The Sweden were quite able to transform such 3 Generation like the AJ-37 into 4 Generation that were the JA-37, however after the JA-37 the Sweden had been decided in the early 80’s to develop such new 4 Generation fighter that has been resulting into family JAS-39 Gripen since 1995.

So the JA-37 could have been highly capable to face the MiG-29 / Su-27 in BVR( Beyond Visual Range) combat, but in the WVR( Within Visual Range) aspect the maneuverability from MiG-29 / Su-27 would put these over advantage against the JA-37. However it were possible to probe better the concept from JA-37 after the MiG-29 has been entering into service since 1983 as well as the Su-27 in 1986.

In combat fighters versus fighters the WVR aspect should have been more important than the BVR, then it were not recommended to continue with the development of the multirole version for the JA-37, otherwise such new fighter with high maneuverability were started the development like the JAS-39 Gripen in the early 80.

The MiG-31 has been receiving missions as interceptor and command aircraft since 1981, as well as its predecessor Tu-128 Fiddler, because of this MiG-31 were capable to command both MiG-23 and MiG-25P fighters had been equipped with analog datalinks, as well as Su-27S/P and occasionally MiG-29 with digital datalinks.

However the MiG-23 and MiG-25P were not capable to share data with each others MiG-23/25 through the analog datalink, since both fighters had not been equipped with instruments for this purpose as well as the second crew like the MiG-31.

The MiG-23 with different versions were used by both VVS (Soviet Air Force) and IA-PVO (Soviet Air Defense), but only IA-PVO has been equipped with MiG-31 and AWACS A-50, while VVS were depended only with CGI( Command Ground Interception) among countries from Warsaw Pact.

Agree with everything sintra said, the Viggen was a terrific aircraft, especially the JA series air to air. Sweden actually started doing serious networking in the later years of the Draken. They don’t get credit that much for what they achieved because until the Gripen they didn’t make a major effort for export sales and the world community did not apprecfiate what they were doing.

One thing about the oft-told tales of the SR-71 being a “victim”. In those cases, the SRs were flying at the same known altitude at the same known speed, on the same known route with no deviations to either side at all, at a known time (determined by the Blackbirds known launch time when they flew that repeated mission) no maneuvering or attempt to avoid, no countermeasures, etc. With a scenario like that, it’s not surprising that they were “intercepted”.

However, had the missions had to be flown in a “hot” environment without those constraints, I doubt that the Viggens, good as they were, would have been able to achieve a firing solution, if they even could have gotten to the area in time.

Advantage of Viggen – short takeoff and landing, the rest of the MiG-23MLD is better

I just don’t recall the Saab datalink being deployed that early. Demonstration time period would fit more that timeframe, but Sweden was drawing down military spending in that timeframe. They had all sorts of nice ideas, but actually implementation is a whole different milestone. You might be right, but it just sounds too early. What you’re insinuating is that fighters had communication superior to wire technology in the field at the time.

MiG-23P also existed in the same time frame, and had the N006.

Also I think starting with the MiG-22P on the Lazur datalink could communicate with AWACS and MiG-31s.

The information that i have is that LAZUR was a fighter-CGI /CGI-fighter data link, if someone has better data, i will be grateful for it.

You described an AJS 37, which was developed in the 90’s. I’m pretty sure that would be like comparing apples and oranges. You may as well compare the R77-equipped MLD prototype versus AJS 37. Both were more or less paper planes.

No, i’ve described the 1979 JAS37, the datalink was present from the get go, and it got “FOC” in 1985, it was capable of doing IFDL between four fighters and land stations. I am using the radar numbers that were present for the European EPAF competition. The first demonstration of a third party shooter from a Viggen using data link and the Sky Flash that i am aware was done circa 1982, regular “lockons” done by third party sensors and “downladed” by datalink, using either land radars or other Viggens through the eighties are described in detail on multiple articles, one of its “victims” being the SR71.
I imagine that the much upgraded interceptor variant of the Viggen that you are thinking, the JAS37 C/D (not the “AJS37”), was operational from 1993 till 2004 in five diferent sqns, the amraam capability was introduced across the fleet in the “D edit 34” upgrade in 1997, 55 airframes being upgraded between the “D” and the “DI” batches (“I” for International).
The “AJS 37” was another upgrade (48 airframes) done on the attack version of the Flygvapnet Viggen, it was the integration of a MIL-STB 1553B databus, an improved RWR system, a new mission planning system and the ability to use the RBS-15F, the DWS 39 and to carry six sidewinders.

They existed in same time period, but pretty sure MLA was using anemic N003 radar. MLD was superior to Viggen, but not MLA.

MiG-23P also existed in the same time frame, and had the N006.

Also I think starting with the MiG-22P on the Lazur datalink could communicate with AWACS and MiG-31s.